Something that has been bothering me for a while now

[2nd_Adam]

The True Jew according to Sacred Scripture:

God’s Judgment and the Law

For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. - Rom 2

 

[2nd_Adam]

I want to add something in my previous post,and that is although Jews believe in the same God as we do,but their belief is incomplete,but indeed they(Jews) believe in the God of Bible.So Muslims’ faith can never be compared to Jewish faith.

God bless.

Do you believe that the Muslim Faith or the Jewish Faith can reconcile you to God apart from Faith in Christ?

 

[jlhargus]

Throughout my year or so here I have been disabused of a great many preconceived notions regarding religion, both Catholicism and other. But for the first time, starting about a month ago, I’ve actually come to disbelieve in something I previously believed in rather self-evident and hence elemental manner. That is to say, it seemed too obvious to need to be questioned. Given that I’d never even questioned it previously, I’m not quite sure where to go from here, or what it means overall for my faith.

I myself have quoted paragraph 841 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church on numerous occasions, and defended the position expressed therein quite strongly. It states:

I no longer believe this. I know, I know, so what, plenty of Catholics on here don’t accept this and not every sentence in the CCC is dogma, so why is this a thread…

Well, a few things bother me about the implications of this realization:

1. The CC has clearly taught error here in what can be reasonably deemed to be an official capacity. The implications of this vis-a-vis the veracity of other Catholic doctrines should be obvious.
2. While it does seem somewhat trivial in a way, the inclusion of such passages says a lot about the philosophy of some within the Church, and a lot of that makes me fairly uncomfortable (to put it diplomatically);
3. in other ways, however, it is NOT at all trivial. There is no triviality at all in what we believe about God, because the proper worship of God is supposed to be at the heart of everything that we do as Christians and everything that we believe as a Church. For example, we can say that God truly is as He is in the Christian Trinity and we are to worship Him as He has commanded us to in Christianity, or we can be mealy-mouthed in our approach to this dimension of our faith and say that anyone who gets a part of it right (whether that part is in number, or in form, or however else you can think of it) is somehow also to be included on an equal footing with Christians when it comes to the question of who is worshipping what God.

I have always maintained that the Muslims, for their part, get it right in terms of number ONLY (and only superficially so at that), as it is a basic truism of Christianity that there is, in fact, only one God. So, I thought to myself, as there’s only one God to begin with, it stands to reason that anyone who worships God must be worshipping that same God, however uncompletely or incorrectly. I can no longer hold this overly simplistic view, especially in light of the position I have expressed in threads like this one. I believe that the Trinity, and the CHRISTIAN Trinity at that, is the one true God. Not Islam’s Allah or Hinduism’s Vishnu or anything or anyone else. So I cannot, for the sake my own soul, say that these other gods, which are not the eternal and uncreated unity that is the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Spirit, are somehow also my God.

I’m not so much concerned that this will have any practical effect on my relationship with Muslims or any other non-Christian, but unfortunately it and other incidents like it have already had a great effect on my relationship to my own Church. To be blunt: the cognitive dissonance created in the process of trying to make all this work is killing my faith in the Catholic Church.

Were it just about Muslims and whether not they’ll be saved, I probably wouldn’t have taken the time to write any of this. I think it is really symptomatic of some deeper problems. I just don’t really know how to deal with them.

Am the only one who feels this way? Not necessarily about this issue, but…just the Church in general? I don’t want to be a dissident or a heretic. I want to be a good Catholic. I just don’t know what to do.

“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

1. The CC has clearly taught error here in what can be reasonably deemed to be an official capacity. The implications of this vis-a-vis the veracity of other Catholic doctrines should be obvious.

JL: Personally I think you are going thru a valley of temptation. I think the best way for you to work thru this, aside from prayer and trusting in our Lord, would be to state specifically, what error you see in the statement. Break it down for instance “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator,” What if anything do you find in error here?

 

[morning_star777]

What do you think about this Sacred Scripture about the Jews. I believe there is a physcial Jew and a spiritual Jew. What is a true Jew?

Actually I want leave it to God.They are the people of old law of God so perhaps it is wise to leave the decision on merciful God’s hand.But who( Muslims) came after the fulfillment of the prophecy of bible and by showing the fake respect to Jesus,& their aim is actually remove Jesus’ or holy spirit’s name as God,they Can not be the follower of true God of holy Bible.That’s it.Thanks.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Actually I want leave it to God.They are the people of old law of God so perhaps it is wise to leave the decision on merciful God’s hand.But who( Muslims) came after the fulfillment of the prophecy of bible and by showing the fake respect to Jesus,& their aim is actually remove Jesus’ or holy spirit’s name as God,they Can not be the follower of true God of holy Bible.That’s it.Thanks.

But I believe God has spoken on the topic of the unbelieving Jew. Do you see the Jews as a mission field in which you preach Christ and Him crucified to them? We are talking about the centrality of the Christian Faith right now. Do unbelieving Jews need Jesus Christ to be reconciled to God due to their sins? The Book of Hebrews is a great place to start with these questions.

 

[morning_star777]

Do you believe that the Muslim Faith or the Jewish Faith can reconcile you to God apart from Faith in Christ?

I have answered it partly in my previous post.And i am not to qualified to answer the rest because I confess,I am still a student in Christianity.I think who are old and wise and knows a lot about it, they can satisfy you with their answer.I just can try answer directly about Islam because I am ex Muslim so my back ground is Islam and I am familiar with islamic laws and their teaching and styles.Thanks and God bless.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I have answered it partly in my previous post.And i am not to qualified to answer the rest because I confess,I am still a student in Christianity.I think who are old and wise and knows a lot about it, they can satisfy you with their answer.I just can try answer directly about Islam because I am ex Muslim so my back ground is Islam and I am familiar with islamic laws and their teaching and styles.Thanks and God bless.

Thanks for sharing with me. Let me just finish and say that Jesus Christ and Him crucified is for all tongue, tribes, and nations. He is the only way to the Father.

 

[morning_star777]

But I believe God has spoken on the topic of the unbelieving Jew. Do you see the Jews as a mission field in which you preach Christ and Him crucified to them? We are talking about the centrality of the Christian Faith right now. Do unbelieving Jews need Jesus Christ to be reconciled to God due to their sins? The Book of Hebrews is a great place to start with these questions.

Ya they need Jesus because their faith is incomplete,still I will leave it to God as i said.So please no more argument.

 

[morning_star777]

Thanks for sharing with me. Let me just finish and say that Jesus Christ and Him crucified is for all tongue, tribes, and nations. He is the only way to the Father.

You are most welcome buddy,ya indeed he(Jesus) is the only way to the Father,so lets pray to the glorious Lord.Hail glorious Lord Jesus Christ, son of God have mercy on us sinners.

 

[morning_star777]

Bullseye! You’re batting a thousand today, Jewell! I couldn’t have said it better! Let’s see what kind of comments we get on this.

Vickie

Thanks sister for your kind comment:blush:.May God’s love & grace always be with you.

 

[tomarin]

I want to add something in my previous post,and that is although Jews believe in the same God as we do,but their belief is incomplete,but indeed they(Jews) believe in the God of Bible.So Muslims’ faith can never be compared to Jewish faith.

God bless.

Sure, the Jews worship the God of the Bible – but it’s the Old Testament only. We worship the God of a Bible they don’t acknowledge. I would think that should be a problem.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Ya they need Jesus because their faith is incomplete,still I will leave it to God as i said.So please no more argument.

Please don’t take this as an argument. I am just trying to remind us as Christians… how important the gospel message is in regards to proclaiming the gospel to the entire world. We share with great passion the good news about the grace of God found in His Son with all tongue, tribes, and nations.

The Message of Salvation to All - Rom 10

For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

 

[Godfollower]

Godfollower;5870014:

You can’t take one clause of one phrase of one sentence in ¶ 841, isolate it out of context, and conclude that the Church must be claiming that Islam = Christianity.

You appear to have come full circle and yet the main point evidently still escapes you. This is from the Original Post:

{Snip}.

I myself have quoted paragraph 841 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church on numerous occasions, and defended the position expressed therein quite strongly. It states:

“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

I no longer believe this. {Snip}.

Well, a few things bother me about the implications of this realization:

{Snip}.

I believe that the Trinity, and the CHRISTIAN Trinity at that, is the one true God. Not Islam’s Allah or Hinduism’s Vishnu or anything or anyone else. So I cannot, for the sake my own soul, say that these other gods, which are not the eternal and uncreated unity that is the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Spirit, are somehow also my God.

I’m not so much concerned that this will have any practical effect on my relationship with Muslims or any other non-Christian, but unfortunately it and other incidents like it have already had a great effect on my relationship to my own Church. To be blunt: the cognitive dissonance created in the process of trying to make all this work is killing my faith in the Catholic Church.

Were it just about Muslims and whether not they’ll be saved, I probably wouldn’t have taken the time to write any of this. I think it is really symptomatic of some deeper problems. I just don’t really know how to deal with them.

Am the only one who feels this way? Not necessarily about this issue, but…just the Church in general? I don’t want to be a dissident or a heretic. I want to be a good Catholic. I just don’t know what to do.

Perhaps this would be an appropriate point at which to start over?
{Snip}.

That’s the main point I’ve been addressing all along. Let’s go in order of the OP:
First, Dzheremi says he doesn’t believe CCC ¶ 841, so I’ve tried to point out why it’s worthy of belief. Over the course of this thread, it’s become obvious that Dzheremi’s difficulty with ¶ 841 lies, not in the Muslims being included in the Creator’s plan (since, obviously, everything is included in His plan), or in the fact that the Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham, or in the fact that God is one, is merciful, and will be mankind’s judge on the last day; rather, Dzheremi’s sole difficulty lies in the statement “together with us they adore the one, merciful God.” So I’m trying to show that this is really a small statement and not at all a theological concession: they adore God. That’s all. It doesn’t say they’re right about anything else; it just says that they adore God.

Next, Dzheremi makes three conclusions based on his disbelief of ¶ 841, and I’ve tried to show why those conclusions are incorrect.

1. The CC has clearly taught error here in what can be reasonably deemed to be an official capacity. The implications of this vis-a-vis the veracity of other Catholic doctrines should be obvious.

This conclusion again requires me to address the fact that the Church has not taught error – which means that the rest of this conclusion does not follow.

1. While it does seem somewhat trivial in a way, the inclusion of such passages says a lot about the philosophy of some within the Church, and a lot of that makes me fairly uncomfortable (to put it diplomatically);

I’m sure there are quite a few people in the Church – I assume Dzheremi is referring to parishioners and perhaps a few priests, rather than the Magisterium as a whole – who would like to live and let live; I am sure there are quite a few Catholics who erroneously believe that any path to God is equally valid. I can easily see how Dzheremi might be uncomfortable with such beliefs. But stating “Muslims adore God” is not the same thing as saying “all beliefs are equally valid.”

1. in other ways, however, it is NOT at all trivial. There is no triviality at all in what we believe about God, because the proper worship of God is supposed to be at the heart of everything that we do as Christians and everything that we believe as a Church. For example, we can say that God truly is as He is in the Christian Trinity and we are to worship Him as He has commanded us to in Christianity, or we can be mealy-mouthed in our approach to this dimension of our faith and say that anyone who gets a part of it right (whether that part is in number, or in form, or however else you can think of it) is somehow also to be included on an equal footing with Christians when it comes to the question of who is worshipping what God.

This passage assumes – incorrectly – that “anyone who gets a part of it right (whether that part is in number, or in form, or however else you can think of it) is somehow also to be included on an equal footing with Christians.” CCC ¶ 841 doesn’t say that. It only says they adore God – not that they understand Him correctly, not that they are somehow equal to Christians, not that they are saved, or what have you.

 

[ralphinal]

First, the key word in the quote from the CCC is “profess.” Muslims CLAIM that they worship the God of Abraham. If that is true, then they INTEND to worship the same God. The understanding that they have of God is lacking and, in some cases, defective

Do they have the full knowledge of that God as revealed to men? No, for they deny the Truth contained within Jesus Christ. The Jews do as well. This means that they have a limited understanding of that God.

They also have other issues with their understanding, some of which are major. They have no concept of God as Father, for example.

 

[josie_L]

That’s the main point I’ve been addressing all along. Let’s go in order of the OP:
First, Dzheremi says he doesn’t believe CCC ¶ 841, so I’ve tried to point out why it’s worthy of belief. Over the course of this thread, it’s become obvious that Dzheremi’s difficulty with ¶ 841 lies, not in the Muslims being included in the Creator’s plan (since, obviously, everything is included in His plan), or in the fact that the Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham, or in the fact that God is one, is merciful, and will be mankind’s judge on the last day; rather, Dzheremi’s sole difficulty lies in the statement “together with us they adore the one, merciful God.” So I’m trying to show that this is really a small statement and not at all a theological concession: they adore God. That’s all. It doesn’t say they’re right about anything else; it just says that they adore God.

Next, Dzheremi makes three conclusions based on his disbelief of ¶ 841, and I’ve tried to show why those conclusions are incorrect.

This conclusion again requires me to address the fact that the Church has not taught error – which means that the rest of this conclusion does not follow.

I’m sure there are quite a few people in the Church – I assume Dzheremi is referring to parishioners and perhaps a few priests, rather than the Magisterium as a whole – who would like to live and let live; I am sure there are quite a few Catholics who erroneously believe that any path to God is equally valid. I can easily see how Dzheremi might be uncomfortable with such beliefs. But stating “Muslims adore God” is not the same thing as saying “all beliefs are equally valid.”

This passage assumes – incorrectly – that “anyone who gets a part of it right (whether that part is in number, or in form, or however else you can think of it) is somehow also to be included on an equal footing with Christians.” CCC ¶ 841 doesn’t say that. It only says they adore God – not that they understand Him correctly, not that they are somehow equal to Christians, not that they are saved, or what have you.

Very well said Godfollower. God bless.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Sure, the Jews worship the God of the Bible – but it’s the Old Testament only. We worship the God of a Bible they don’t acknowledge. I would think that should be a problem.

The Old Testament points to Jesus Christ!

John 5:39

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me. - Jesus

 

[Godfollower]

It is very good news if your explanation is also the official explanation of RCC.

But it clearly is the official doctrine of the Catholic Church:

Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues; But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator. Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”, the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Lumen Gentium ¶ 16.

But I think you have missed something in my post.My my voice was to those Catholics who really think that Muslims’ worship the same God as we do.Even some catholics here are posting again and again by claiming that “If Muslims do not worship the same God then Jews also do not worship the same God”.Personally I believe that Jews believe the same God as we do,but Muslims’ god is different.God revealed himself to the Jews,but God never revealed himself to Muslims because when islam established,that time the prophecy of Bible was fulfilled.So if any one want to compare Jewish faith with Islam and claim “,if Jewish believe the same God then Muslims also believe”,it is a wrong statement indeed.And that’s why i wrote that if any one (after jesus’ new covenant) establish a new religion and claim that they worship the true Abrahamic God,then indeed it is not only incorrect but also a conspiracy against God.If God of Bible(Both OT & NT) is correct then the later religion establish specially to challenge the new covenant,they are not the follower of the God of Abraham but they are conspirator against the God of Abraham.You see,Muhammed directly declared that who will worship Jesus or holy spirit as God they are the people of Satan,And Satan provoke man to worship another man(Jesus).But according to bible we know that God the holy spirit guides Christians to the way of Lord.So if I say that Muhammed taught our God as demonic God,then is it too easy to refuse my claim?But we must have to think that what they(muslims) directly claim.In reality muslims claims that We Christians are Satan worshiper,and be sure it was the teaching of the founder of islam who was a power hungry man,and who knows, may be the specific false prophet mentioned in bible( revelation)!So it is not wise to compare Muslims’ faith with Jewish faith because they are completely different.One(Jewish) came with the old law that was directly from God,but other came after the fulfillment of the prophecy of bible,and the world need no law after the new covenant,so indeed the 2nd one(Islam) can not be compared to Judaism,although they look same.that’s all.So my voice was to them who really think that Muslims believe the same God as we or Jews do,and my voice was not to RCC( if I missed before the real point of CCC 841).Thanks.

But God did reveal Himself to the Muslims: He wrote the Bible. They’ve been misled by Mohammed’s false teaching, but that doesn’t mean they worship some other god; it just means they don’t know Him properly.

 

[tomarin]

The Old Testament points to Jesus Christ!

I agree but you’ll have a hard time convincing a Jewish person of this.

 

[2nd_Adam]

This passage assumes – incorrectly – that “anyone who gets a part of it right (whether that part is in number, or in form, or however else you can think of it) is somehow also to be included on an equal footing with Christians.” CCC ¶ 841 doesn’t say that. It only says they adore God – not that they understand Him correctly, not that they are somehow equal to Christians, not that they are saved, or what have you.

According to Sacred Scripture, it is impossilbe to adore God or know God as Father apart from Jesus Christ. It is impossible to please God in the flesh. A new birth is necessary to know God, or to be known by God as and adopted child of God, or to please Him.

 

[Godfollower]

I want to add something in my previous post,and that is although Jews believe in the same God as we do,but their belief is incomplete,but indeed they(Jews) believe in the God of Bible.So Muslims’ faith can never be compared to Jewish faith.

God bless.

Of course they believe in the same God we do; there’s only one God!!!

Jews’ belief is incomplete; Muslims’ belief is incomplete.

But they adore the only God who exists!