Something that has been bothering me for a while now

[Godfollower]

Do you believe that the Muslim Faith or the Jewish Faith can reconcile you to God apart from Faith in Christ?

We’ve quoted repeatedly from the Catechism on this point to show you what the Church teaches. “Outside the Church there is no salvation.” Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.

 

[tomarin]

According to Sacred Scripture, it is impossilbe to adore God or know God as Father apart from Jesus Christ. It is impossible to please God in the flesh. A new birth is necessary to know God, or to be known by God as and adopted child of God, or to please Him.

Now we’re getting somewhere. What part of sacred scripture are you thinking of?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Of course they believe in the same God we do; there’s only one God!!!

Jews’ belief is incomplete; Muslims’ belief is incomplete.

But they adore the only God who exists!

How can you adore God apart from Jesus Christ?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Now we’re getting somewhere. What part of sacred scripture are you thinking of?

All of it…

 

[2nd_Adam]

We’ve quoted repeatedly from the Catechism on this point to show you what the Church teaches. “Outside the Church there is no salvation.” Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.

I’m sorry, I’m Protestant. But I agree that Jesus is the only way and the only door to God the Father.

 

[tomarin]

I want to add something in my previous post,and that is although Jews believe in the same God as we do,but their belief is incomplete,but indeed they(Jews) believe in the God of Bible.So Muslims’ faith can never be compared to Jewish faith.

God bless.

Your conclusion doesn’t follow logically from what precedes it. Judaism and Islam can be compared (and they have been compared, earlier in the thread) with respect to their rejection of the Holy Trinity. You can’t just make an exception for Jews without explaining why.

 

[Godfollower]

Sure, the Jews worship the God of the Bible – but it’s the Old Testament only. We worship the God of a Bible they don’t acknowledge. I would think that should be a problem.

To paraphrase Paul, you appear to be dividing God. The Jews worship God. They misunderstand Him, and they mistakenly believe that the Messiah hasn’t yet arrived. But they worship the same God we do.

The Muslims also worship God. They misunderstand Him, and they mistakenly believe that Jesus is not God but that Mohammed was a prophet. They’re in for a surprise. But they worship the same God we do.

 

[2nd_Adam]

To paraphrase Paul, you appear to be dividing God. The Jews worship God. They misunderstand Him, and they mistakenly believe that the Messiah hasn’t yet arrived. But they worship the same God we do.

The Muslims also worship God. They misunderstand Him, and they mistakenly believe that Jesus is not God but that Mohammed was a prophet. They’re in for a surprise. But they worship the same God we do.

Can a Jew be reconciled to God and still reject Jesus as the Christ? Who will save the unbelieving Jew for their sins?

 

[Godfollower]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
The Old Testament points to Jesus Christ!

That’s true; but does their misunderstanding mean that their worship of Him is misplaced? That their prayers don’t reach Him? That their adoration of the one, true God falls on deaf ears?

 

[2nd_Adam]

That’s true; but does their misunderstanding mean that their worship of Him is misplaced? That their prayers don’t reach Him? That their adoration of the one, true God falls on deaf ears?

Of course… how do you think we are able to approach the throne of grace?

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Jesus the Great High Priest

Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. - Hebrews

 

[tomarin]

To paraphrase Paul, you appear to be dividing God. The Jews worship God. They misunderstand Him, and they mistakenly believe that the Messiah hasn’t yet arrived. But they worship the same God we do.

My position is the same as yours. I was trying to point out the inconsistencies of Morningstar’s position. He or she thinks it’s okay to exclude Muslims but not Jews from worshipping the one true God. Well on what grounds? Don’t the Jewish and Muslim conceptions of God resemble each other more than they do the Christian one? Saying the Jews worship the “God of the Bible” just papers over this crucial difference, in my opinion.

 

[Godfollower]

According to Sacred Scripture, it is impossilbe to adore God or know God as Father apart from Jesus Christ. It is impossible to please God in the flesh. A new birth is necessary to know God, or to be known by God as and adopted child of God, or to please Him.

No, that’s incorrect. Scripture in fact says just the opposite.

Maybe this will help, given the subject on this thread. Everyone’s saying that Muslims can’t adore God because they don’t know Him, right? They think He’s only one Person, they deny Jesus’ divinity, they deny the Trinity, so they can’t possibly adore God?

Let’s see what Jesus had to say about this subject:

The woman saith to him: Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers adored on this mountain, and you say, that at Jerusalem is the place where men must adore. Jesus saith to her: Woman, believe me, that the hour cometh, when you shall neither on this mountain, not in Jerusalem, adore the Father. You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth.

John 4:19-23.

Jesus acknowledged that the Samaritans were adoring God, Whom they knew not.

The Catholic Church teaches that the Muslims don’t understand God. But they adore Him.

 

[2nd_Adam]

No, that’s incorrect. Scripture in fact says just the opposite.

Maybe this will help, given the subject on this thread. Everyone’s saying that Muslims can’t adore God because they don’t know Him, right? They think He’s only one Person, they deny Jesus’ divinity, they deny the Trinity, so they can’t possibly adore God?

Let’s see what Jesus had to say about this subject:

John 4:19-23.

Jesus acknowledged that the Samaritans were adoring God, Whom they knew not.

The Catholic Church teaches that the Muslims don’t understand God. But they adore Him.

Please finish this passage. I think the woman at the well believed that Jesus was the Christ. Are you saying that the Catholic Church teaches that Muslims know God apart from faith in the biblical Jesus Christ? I don’ t think you can adore someone if you don’t know them. There is a mutual enmity between unbelievers and God. Unbelievers are at war with God and God will ultimately will win the war and crush the rebellion of sinful mankind who continually rebel against Him.

The Judgment at Christ’s Coming

5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from [2] the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. - Sacred Scripture

 

[Godfollower]

How can you adore God apart from Jesus Christ?

The same way the Jews do. As Scripture expressly declares.

Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying: Arise, go towards the south, to the way that goeth down from Jerusalem into Gaza: this is desert. And rising up, he went. And behold a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch, of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge over all her treasures, had come to Jerusalem to adore. And he was returning, sitting in his chariot, and reading Isaias the prophet. And the Spirit said to Philip: Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me?

Acts of the Apostles 8:26-31.

You can’t understand God by yourself; you need to be taught by His Church.

But you can adore Him, even if you don’t understand Him.

 

[Godfollower]

I’m sorry, I’m Protestant. But I agree that Jesus is the only way and the only door to God the Father.

I realize you don’t accept the Catechism as evidence of God’s Word. I cited it because you can accept it as an authoritative statement of what the Church teaches.

And, by the way, welcome!

 

[tomarin]

That’s true; but does their misunderstanding mean that their worship of Him is misplaced? That their prayers don’t reach Him? That their adoration of the one, true God falls on deaf ears?

I wouldn’t say that at all. My understanding of the matter is the same as Nostra Aetate.

I’m not objecting to people who say that the Abrahamic religions all worship the one true God, because that’s what I believe. I’m objecting to people who want to include the Jews but exclude the Muslims for no good reason, as far as I can see. That’s the context in which you should read my last few posts.

 

[Godfollower]

Can a Jew be reconciled to God and still reject Jesus as the Christ? Who will save the unbelieving Jew for their sins?

In theory, sure! I’m sure you’ll agree that anyone – even a pagan or an atheist – who searches for God but never finds Jesus can be saved.

Remember that Jesus has already redeemed everyone. And there are plenty of people who have never heard of Him. But they can still be saved.

 

[Godfollower]

My position is the same as yours. I was trying to point out the inconsistencies of Morningstar’s position. He or she thinks it’s okay to exclude Muslims but not Jews from worshipping the one true God. Well on what grounds? Don’t the Jewish and Muslim conceptions of God resemble each other more than they do the Christian one? Saying the Jews worship the “God of the Bible” just papers over this crucial difference, in my opinion.

Yeah, sorry; I didn’t mean to sound like I was arguing with you.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Let’s take a break. I receive Catholics as brothers and sisters in Christ. My point is that Jesus Christ and Him crucified is central for the Christian Faith. I’m pointing everyone to Jesus Christ. Apart from union with Jesus Christ, you will face the judgement and eternal condmenation of God for your sins. All humanity needs Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. If you want to believe that Muslims and Jews can face the judgement of God apart from Jesus Christ and find their way to Heaven… then that’s your choice. Here’s the applicable Sacred Scripture to support my proclamation that Jesus Christ and Him crucified is absolutely essential to find peace and reconciliaton with God.

The Judgment at Christ’s Coming

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. - 2 Thes 1

 

[2nd_Adam]

In theory, sure! I’m sure you’ll agree that anyone – even a pagan or an atheist – who searches for God but never finds Jesus can be saved.

Remember that Jesus has already redeemed everyone. And there are plenty of people who have never heard of Him. But they can still be saved.

And that’s why it’s would be extremly difficult for me to be Catholic. Faith in Jesus Christ is essential for peace and reconcilation with God.