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tomarin
Guest
That’s all right; it was just a misunderstanding.Yeah, sorry; I didn’t mean to sound like I was arguing with you.
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Godfollower
Guest
No, actually, the beginning of this passage makes clear that it’s just the opposite:
John 4:19.
She thought He was just a man. He had to disabuse her of that passage by identifying Himself with the Messiah (v.26).
More to the point, though, this passage (John 4:19-26) demonstrates that adoration of God is possible without knowing and understanding Him: Jesus Himself stated: “You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews.” John 4:22. According to Jesus, it’s possible to adore God without knowing about the Trinity.
Well, take that up with Jesus, because He’s the one Who said “You adore that which you know not.” Clearly it’s possible to adore God without knowing Him.
The Judgment at Christ’s Coming
5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from [2] the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. - Sacred Scripture
Yes, God will judge us all. And Muslims are by no means guaranteed of salvation, since Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and they think that He was just a prophet.
But they adore God, even though they don’t understand Him.
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ralphinal
Guest
So, in your mind, a merciful God allowed millions of people who lived in a time and place where they could not KNOW about Jesus Christ to exist with no hope for salvation?
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Godfollower
Guest
We don’t disagree. The Church has never taught that Muslims and Jews can face the judgment of God apart from Jesus Christ and find their way to Heaven. But, for evangelistic purposes, it’s very important to know where they’re coming from, meet them there, and bring them home.
If you go to a Jew and say, “You’re worshiping an idol! It’s a false god! You need to worship my God!”, you won’t make much progress compared to the Christian who says, “You have misunderstood; the Messiah has already come! Let’s examine the Scriptures and see why this is so.”
In the same way, if you go to a Muslim and say “You’re worshiping an idol! It’s a false god! You need to worship my God!”, you won’t make much progress compared to the Christian who says, “You have misunderstood; Jesus was in fact God! Let’s examine the Scriptures and see why this is so.”
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I think we need to consider the need for missions and evangelism with your question. What is the purpose of missions if sinners can be reconciled to God apart from hearing the good news of God?
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Godfollower
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dzheremi
Guest
Well, I’m not entirely sure that you and I would share the same idea of what being “included in the Creator’s plan” means (this seems vague to me, but that’s okay - I don’t know exactly how I fit in there myself, either!), but okay.
Sure, but this is a throw-away statement if I’ve ever read one. Mick’s example of this kind of teaching creating “religious conceit” is perfect here: Since so many people have made the point of emphasizing that it only says that they PROFESS to hold the faith of Abraham (not whether or not they actually do), we are essentially saying “Sure, they BELIEVE they’re doing that, but we think they’re wrong”. What is the point of even making such a statement if under the surface is just as much rejection of Islam than if we had said nothing? To put on a nice face and play jump rope with a bunch of Christ-deniers? At least for the Jews’ part their own historians recognize the historical reality of the Crucifixion. At least the Jews were THERE! I don’t see any point of this “they profess to hold the faith of Abraham” statement. You’re right in that I’m not specifically against it as worded, but that sure doesn’t mean I don’t have difficulty with it. It seems unnecessary at best.
Amen.
You see, I don’t see this as such a small matter, because I DON’T in fact believe that they adore God, or at least not our God. I think they adore Muhammad’s revision of a mix of Biblical and heretical Gnostic doctrine that has been recast as the God of Abraham in order to substantiate Islam’s false claims of its own continuity with and indeed perfection of the previous religions. To be sure, this diety may share a great deal of superficial characteristics with the one true God, but generally a look into Islamic understandings of God shows what a wide gulf in understanding there really is between us, even when we both agree that God is “one”, “merciful”, etc.
“Valid” is not a word that really helps us in this situation. I know that the Church does not teach that every path to God is equally valid any more than it teaches that all churches have equal claim to the full truth of God. The problem I actually have is the claim, endorsed so far by nearly everyone in this thread, that any worship of any thing that its worshippers CLAIM to be God is worship of the one true God. This doesn’t sit right with me, for various reasons already explored in this thread. I think Morningstar’s comments on cults are very appropriate here: To the extent that cults may be monotheistic, should we accept their God as somehow being our God (maybe not with a “complete understanding” of Him, or whatever qualifier those trying to uphold this position may need, but in some way nonetheless)? To the extent that cults may be likely to closely parallel the teachings of Christianity in some way, should we accept them as worshipping God as well? Is there any sort of line at all beyond which we can say “no, these people are claiming to worship God but are in fact worshipping something else”? [Aside: This was the point of my becoming so upset with Edwin’s posting regarding the Antichrist…maybe the Antichrist wouldn’t SINCERELY worship God…as though sincerity of worship is a valid criterion in determining whether or not Muslims worship our God (after all, that’s what they *profess to be doing!), but maybe not in some other cases.] I would submit to you that in this context, it is not only possible but imperative that we be able to say, without any shame or bad feeling, that some religions that profess to worship the God of Abraham are NOT doing so. Sure, they think they’re doing that, but we shouldn’t think that they are, or be pressured into saying or believing that they are when it does nothing but hurt our position.
(cont’d below)
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dzheremi
Guest
No, it’s not saying that all beliefs are equally valid, but it is saying that all gods are equally God, which I do not believe to be the case. Surely there must be SOME false gods out there, or what can be made of all the warnings against worship of false gods in the Bible? Are we to believe that the only real problem with the idol worshippers was that they had not narrowed down their view enough to embrace one God, to the exclusion of the fact that they were actually sacrificing things to the sun or the moon or whatever? I don’t think it’s an “either/or” type of distinction, of course, it’s a “both/and”, and I have a feeling you and every other Christian would agree with me.
Yes, I am sorry, that was poorly phrased on my part. I meant that they are assumed to be worshipping the same God as the Christians, no matter what they say about their own belief.
What I don’t understand about this position is that it seems to assume that there is some simple misunderstanding of God at work, rather than an out-and-out rejection of Him. This is no doubt true of many Muslims who have never actually heard Christianity explained from a Christian (as opposed to the charade presented as Christian believe in the Qur’an), which is why we must never cease evangelizing the Muslim world, but for those who have heard and rejected in accordance with the Quran’s command that they do so, it is a doctrinal matter, not a misunderstanding.
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ralphinal
Guest
There were no missions in 37 A.D. to the Americas. Were all who lived there damned?
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Godfollower
Guest
Maybe this question will help. Let’s say Lois Lane is in love with Clark Kent and wants to marry him. She doesn’t realize that he is also Superman. In fact (since we’re hypothesizing here), let’s say that she doesn’t even believe in Superman anymore, because she’s been disillusioned so many times. She now thinks that Superman is just a myth made up by Perry White and the other newspapers.
We happen to know that Clark Kent is also Superman. We were there all along; we saw him arrive from Krypton, we saw him grow up, we’ve seen him fight crime, defend decency, and all that. And (more to the point) we know about his alter ego, Clark Kent.
We know more about Clark Kent than Lois Lane does. Is it accurate to say that she doesn’t love Clark?
It’s clear that she doesn’t know everything about him (for that matter, perhaps there are things about him that we don’t know, either, even though we know far more about him than Lois does). But she loves him.
She knows him imperfectly. But she loves him.
It’s the same with God. The Muslims know Him imperfectly. But they adore him.
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dzheremi
Guest
So where is the line then, exactly? How is it so that Muslims worship God in a way that is or ought to be acceptable within Christianity? I’ve read a lot in this thread about how they just do, more as a matter of number than of anything else (after all, there’s only one God out there…), but nobody can seem to tell me how. Can I worship as a Muslim does? Can I take the Qur’an on as sacred scripture? Can I pronounce the shahada, that Muhammad is the messenger of God? If Muhammad is not the messenger of God, then who is Muhammad a messenger of?
Likewise, “together with us…” how? I’ve asked this before in this thread, and only gotten the negative answer: “Oh, this doesn’t mean that they are literally beside us…”; okay, I didn’t think it did, so how about someone telling me what it does mean?
If they worship the one true God purely as a matter of number, then what is the difference between worshipping God and worshipping a bologna sandwich? Sorry if this seems sacreligious or stupid, but I figure one ridiculous analogy deserves another.
If I sincerely believe, down to the marrow of my bones, that I am worshipping a bologna sandwich that is one, merciful, and the creator of all, then will you accept my worship as being “together with” yours? More to the point, will you accept the bologna sandwich that I see as my God as your God in kind? After all, there’s only ONE God…I just call him Oscar Meyer, while you call him God, Muslims call him Allah, etc.
I seriously do want an answer to this. Where does a line get drawn? Where does this all lead to? Where does it end? When and where can we say “no” when others say that we share the same God?
Likewise, “together with us…” how? I’ve asked this before in this thread, and only gotten the negative answer: “Oh, this doesn’t mean that they are literally beside us…”; okay, I didn’t think it did, so how about someone telling me what it does mean?
If they worship the one true God purely as a matter of number, then what is the difference between worshipping God and worshipping a bologna sandwich? Sorry if this seems sacreligious or stupid, but I figure one ridiculous analogy deserves another.
If I sincerely believe, down to the marrow of my bones, that I am worshipping a bologna sandwich that is one, merciful, and the creator of all, then will you accept my worship as being “together with” yours? More to the point, will you accept the bologna sandwich that I see as my God as your God in kind? After all, there’s only ONE God…I just call him Oscar Meyer, while you call him God, Muslims call him Allah, etc.
I seriously do want an answer to this. Where does a line get drawn? Where does this all lead to? Where does it end? When and where can we say “no” when others say that we share the same God?
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ralphinal
Guest
If we look at the last part first and go backwards, as Christians Muhammad is NOT the messenger of God. As to whom he is the messenger of, there is no one answer. Personally, I lean to “himself.” As such, you cannot pronounce the shahada. The Qur’an cannot be sacred text because it counters the Bible. It goes back to the “who does Muhammad represent” question.
Here is how I understand it all. They claim to worship the God of Abraham. So do we. So do the Jews. That is where we start. From there, it goes down hill quickly. They have a incomplete understanding of God. So do the Jews. Unlike the Jews, they have a defective view of salvation history, changing the who, whats, wheres, whys and hows.
If there is one and only one God, they are trying to reach him using a flawed system. That does not mean they are not trying to reach them.
Because there is only One God, so any attempt to worship Him is directed to Him, even if they do not have the correct and full understanding.
Actually, this is not as ridiculous as you think. Once you have assigned the role of deity to something or someone that is incapable of actually BEING that deity, you no longer are attempting to worship God. You have entered idolatry. Muslims say they start from the same point where we started, so we take them at their word. If later on, we learn that Islam does not actually teach this, but this was all a lie to make us accept them, we can say that they were wrong the whole time. We can say that because all of the facts were not in place.
Sharing the same God DOES NOT MEAN holds an acceptable alternative faith. In fact, it is impossible for One God to intend to have all of this confusion because of multiple faith systems. They “profess to worship” but that does not mean that they have the correct and true understanding.
Protestants and Catholics and Orthodox all worship the same God. However, not all of them do so with a full understanding of Him. The Church is saying that Muslims are trying to reach the same God while not have the correct road map to him
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dzheremi
Guest
Hi Ralphinal. Thanks for your replies.
Good to know. So, would you then care to explain how it is that someone who explicitly follows his own word (as Muhammad did, and so as Muslims do), which is not God’s, can be worshipping God? Jesus said that if you love Him, you will keep His commandments (Jn 14:15). He did not say that you can do whatever you want so long as you put it in a book and call that book holy. That is not adoring God; that’s adoring yourself. So how can those who follow such a doctrine, borne of something OTHER than God, be somehow also worshipping God?
Okay.
What Muslims may be trying to do or not trying to do is not really the issue. What the Church affirms them as doing is the issue. How is it that Muslims worship our God?
Even in my bologna example?
Why do you assume that I have “assigned the role” to something that incapable of being a diety? Remember, in this situation, I don’t see it as myself who has assigned anything to anyone or anything, just as today’s Muslims obviously don’t see anything in their Qu’ran as being assigned by anyone other than Allah. By the same token, I didn’t make the sandwich god, the sandwich already was god - I just acknowledged that! I “reverted” to the proper state of sandwich worship, if you will.
I don’t. I used to, but the conversation with the Hindu poster showed me the error of my ways.
We will never understand Islam as the believer does, just as they will never understand Christianity as we do, so why not compare their religion with ours and then seriously ask ourselves “Is there a common wellspring here?” I don’t think that OUR belief should be determined based on anything that a Muslim tells us. They love photo ops, while they hang banners in our holy cities that say God (still somehow our God?) does not beget…which one tells you more about what they insist that they’re worshipping?
Why do we need to insult them in this way in order to fool ourselves into thinking that we’re all friends? “They PROFESS to believe”…what the heck is that? We obviously don’t agree with them in that regard, so why don’t we say THAT instead?
Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox are all Christians, though, so they must be evaluated separately.
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ralphinal
Guest
Can the same be said of non-Catholic Christians? Like you said, there has to be a line somewhere.
They direct their prayers to him. They hold him as creator and ruler of the Universe
However, no matter how you try, God cannot be a sandwich. Because of that, you are off.Why do you assume that I have “assigned the role” to something that incapable of being a diety? Remember, in this situation, I don’t see it as myself who has assigned anything to anyone or anything, just as today’s Muslims obviously don’t see anything in their Qu’ran as being assigned by anyone other than Allah. By the same token, I didn’t make the sandwich god, the sandwich already was god - I just acknowledged that! I “reverted” to the proper state of sandwich worship, if you will.
I need to go back and read that conversation to fully understand
I do not completely disagree. I feel that the Church needs to place more emphasis on how Islam is wrong and not on how it is right
Because they get mad and blow stuff up? JOKING
Because we have an understanding that discussion must begin at a common point.
True, but there have been those who hold that they are no more Christian than Muslims
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dzheremi
Guest
Can you answer the question as it was asked to you? I mean, the same can be said about the various sects of Christiandom, but I’m asking about Muslims specifically because the passage is about Muslims specifically. The Church’s relationship with non-Catholic Christians is an entirely different topic.
They certainly direct their prayers to one god that they claim to be the same God as the Christian God, but does this make them correct in their assumption?
No matter how hard they try, the Allah of Islam cannot be the God of Christianity. See how this kind of “answer” is no kind of answer at all?
It is in this thread: We are all Hindus now"
Fair enough, but I don’t think this is a common point to begin with. I think this “we worship the same God” idea is a public relations victory for Islam, to the absolute detriment of Christianity.
This thread wasn’t started to make that point, so that’s a bit of an aside.
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ralphinal
Guest
According to the Church, they are intending to do so, and that is where we say we share it. There is one God. If you intend to pray to that one God, you intend to pray to the same God as me.
Yes, but it is an answer in that it is telling. Is it possible that the Church’s understanding of Allah is wrong? Yes. Why would it be wrong? Because Islam is not honest about Allah.
I’ll look at it. thanks
You might be right. If so, I think it is more telling of the differences between the Western mind and the Muslim one.
You are right
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I think we need to go back to the basics of Christianity and the known attributes of God. We know that God is perfectly Holy and just, and He is also merciful, compassionate, and abundantly graceful. God is love, yet God’s wrath is holy. Since God is holy and just, He cannot forgive us apart from justice being served on those who sin against Him. Therefore, the cross is the perfect solution in which God is perfectly just and merciful at the same time. Do you believe that all mankind is deserving of eternal damnation for our sin against God? Would God be moral and just if He forgave sinners apart from the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for their sins? By sending His Son into this sin cursed world to die, God is just and the justifier at the same time. It would be really amazing if God sent His Son to save just one sinner from my perspective. God sent His Son to save the ungodly and wicked, those who are His enemies.
The Righteousness of God Through Faith
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. - Rom 3
For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.- Rom 5
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dzheremi
Guest
Wait a minute, though. Everything that you say the Church affirms about Muslims can also be true about my bologna sandwich example. Assuming that I am a true believer in the divinity of the sandwich, and I truly intend to worship God, then why is my worship of the sandwich substantially different than anothers worship of something that someone somewhere has decided is able to assume the role of God? After all, isn’t a major Muslim objection to things like the incarnation of the crucifixion the belief that such things are not consistent with God? God can’t “do” that, if you will?
I say that if the sandwich is how I truly believe God is (i.e., the sandwich is a true depiction of God, according to my theology), and I affirm that the sandwich is one, and that the sandwich is merciful, then I am essentially fulfilling all the same qualities as can be found in the brief description of how Muslims are “together with us” in the CCC. The fact that it is ridiculous and obvious that a sandwich is not suitable as God within a Christian context just illustrates my point - “Allah” as he is held to by Muslims is not acceptable either, so why is it so self-evident to you that Muslims and Christians worship the same God, while I do not even as I affirm the same attributes that Muslims do, and the same number of gods at that? It is the same situation, just with something obviously ridiculous instead of metaphysically obscure.
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SSTeacher
Guest
dzheremi,
I tentatively venture to suggest that I might have figured out the reason for this position and I offer the following as a possible explanation.
I agree with you that this can be seen as a doctrinal matter and I feel fairly certain that those Catholics who are disagreeing with you not only appreciate that perspective but also have given some thought as to its implications. Although you clearly asserted in your Original Post that not every sentence in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is dogma, if the content of this apparently equivocal paragraph does indeed come under the heading of faith and morals it becomes almost impossible for a Catholic effectively to address the objections you outlined in your Original Post within the parameters wherein you raised them. And so I suspect that some Catholics on this thread suppose that if they were to concede any of your points or admit that you have a genuine difficulty it would result in you stepping firmly upon the road that your uneasiness is leading you to consider taking. To relegate the issue to the category of “misunderstanding” is thus quite logical. The only winning move, as Joshua declared in the movie, War Games, is not to play. I would describe the motive here, if this indeed be it, as noble.
That’s just my opinion but I could be right.
Speculatively,
Mick
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Godfollower
Guest
It works the other way, too:
Assume a cafeteria-Catholic couple raising their kids. They don’t particularly care for a lot of the Church’s teachings, so they “edit” on the few occasions when they talk to their kids about God. They also never take the kids to CCD. But they go to Mass more or less every Sunday, praying and worshiping with other (non-cafeteria) Catholics. As a result of their poor catechesis, the kids believe that there are three separate Gods (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) who cooperate with each other to run the world, and they think that the Son didn’t even come into existence until the Incarnation. They don’t believe in the Real Presence. They just show up for Mass, zone out during the boring stuff, and leave – but they honestly pray to God during the Mass.
If asked how many Gods there are, they’ll answer “Well, we worship three of them: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. There are a bunch more, of course – Odin, Zeus, Jupiter, and so on. But ours are the most powerful.”
Do these kids adore the same God you and I do?
I would say yes, they do; but they’re stunningly ill-informed about Him.
The same goes for Muslims. Heck, they even think there’s this prophet guy who wrote a book about God that makes the Bible false! They’re really ill-informed.
But they adore God.
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