K
kalt
Guest
What else is it that you think the Muslims are doing? What god are they worshipping?
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dzheremi
Guest
K
kalt
Guest
So you don’t actually know what they’re doing, because you’re not interested in knowing that, but you know the CCC is wrong about it.
F
fbl9
Guest
It is your beleif that Muslims do not worship God yet you can not say what god they do worship.So how is it you can state that they do not worship God if you can not say whom they do worship?
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dzheremi
Guest
What? How does this work? I’m not allowed to NOT say what I think Muslims are worshipping? I don’t see why this should be so, since that is not at all the topic in this thread.
Why is it not okay to say “I don’t know for sure who or what Muslims may worship, but I don’t recognize it as the God that I worship”? Because that’s essentially my stance here.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Protestants all worship the One True God as their Heavenly Father because we are Christians. Without knowing the historic biblical Jesus Christ, you cannot worship and know the One True God as your Heavenly Father. Muslims have a relationship with the One True God as their judge and object of His wrath. This is based on Sacred Scripture alone. Jews, who do not know Jesus Christ as their Messiah, have Satan as their Father according to Sacred Scripture alone. I’ll leave the debate of Sacred Tradition and its meaning between my various Catholic siblings.
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Booklover
Guest
Excuse me, but I disagree! You and others are making too much of that statement. All it’s doing is stating what Muslims profess [claim] is their belief, nothing more or less and has nothing to do with the actual teachings of the Church!
Vickie
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Booklover
Guest
Very simple! They worship the deity who speaks in the Quran! Did the God of Abraham dictate the Quran? If he did not, how can it be said that they worship him?
Vickie
W
why_me
Guest
It is interesting that the catholic church states that the muslims and catholics worship the same god. As you know from the mormon threads, many catholics have claimed that the mormons do not worship the same god as catholics nor the same Jesus. However, if muslims worship the same merciful god as catholics, it would only seem logical that mormons do also.
I believe that the important place of Muslisms in that section has much to do with politics. It placates the muslim population. If one thinks of the outcry if the catholic church stated that muslims worship a different god we can understand that section better. That section may be more about creating peace between the catholic church and Islam.
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Booklover
Guest
Exactly, but it’s not an authority on the teachings of non-Christian religions.
This is where you’re wrong! It’s precisely a commentary on what the Muslim claim is! Why can’t you and others see that?
Vickie
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robsully
Guest
Hello all.
As I follow the debate I have asked qestions of the posters and I thank you all for your answers and guidance.
Once again I have a question; 2nd Adam If it can be accepted that God is God and that God never changes, why would the Jews have Satan for their Father? He is God that they worship? And God of Adam is God of Abraham and God is of Moses and is God of David and the very same God of Joseph and Mary?
The God of trinity that you worship is the same God that Jews worship? God does not change? or did He?
As I follow the debate I have asked qestions of the posters and I thank you all for your answers and guidance.
Once again I have a question; 2nd Adam If it can be accepted that God is God and that God never changes, why would the Jews have Satan for their Father? He is God that they worship? And God of Adam is God of Abraham and God is of Moses and is God of David and the very same God of Joseph and Mary?
The God of trinity that you worship is the same God that Jews worship? God does not change? or did He?
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kalt
Guest
It says that they “adore” the same god.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
The promise is from Abraham to Issac… which Christ is the seed (offspring). It can never be from Abraham to Ishmael (Islam).
Galatians
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
The Law and the Promise
To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
Example of Hagar and Sarah
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”
Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Genesis+16&src=esv.org
Galatians
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
The Law and the Promise
To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
Example of Hagar and Sarah
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”
Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Genesis+16&src=esv.org
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russell007
Guest
Here is an old article I found that brings things into perspective. At least it does for me:
Submitted by TW Pope (United States), Jan 23, 2006 at 18:03
A good point.
I would respond that first, paragraph 841 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) needs to be read in context of the subheading ‘The Church and non-Christians,’ paragraphs 839-845. And to do true justice to the discussion, those paragraphs should be read in context of paragraphs 830-856, which are all under the heading ‘The Church is Catholic.’ The Catechism in paragraphs 846-848 discuss how there is ‘No Salvation outside the Church.’ I spent quite some time in study, prayer, and meditation on this section of the Magisterium of Mother Church. I must admit in humility that I can not claim a full understanding of these teachings and their applications, and a theologian would be a better person to inquire in depth questions of.
I must add, in humility and charity, that there are two footnotes attached to CCC 841, which point to the source of this paragraph. The first is LG 16 which reference ‘Lumen Gentium’ which was one of the constitutions of Vatican II, promulgated by Holiness Pope Paul VI on November 21, 1964. The second footnote, NA 3, is in reference to ‘Nostre Aetate,’ a decleration of Vatican II, also promulgated by Holiness Pope Paul VI, October 28, 1965. Therefore, paragraph 841 should be attributed to Pope Paul VI, not Pope John Paul II.
Do Muslims and Christians share the same God. I wouldn’t phrase it like that. I would say that while Muslims and Christians do offer worship to the same God, they do not have the same vision of God, or view their relationship with God the same. Paragraph 841 acknowledges that muslims, are decendents of Abraham through Ishmael, and that they have a role in the plan of salvation, though it does not get into what that role is. My understanding would be that the faith of Islam does not contain the fullness of revelation that leads a soul to heaven, but that God in His infinite love and mercy rains down sufficient graces on all of mankind that enables those who through " through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation." (CCC 847) I would point out that it says may.
I would also like to share something I read, concerning the very meeting that started this discussion
chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=45084&eng=y
May the peace of God be with you,
TW Pope
Submitted by TW Pope (United States), Jan 23, 2006 at 18:03
A good point.
I would respond that first, paragraph 841 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) needs to be read in context of the subheading ‘The Church and non-Christians,’ paragraphs 839-845. And to do true justice to the discussion, those paragraphs should be read in context of paragraphs 830-856, which are all under the heading ‘The Church is Catholic.’ The Catechism in paragraphs 846-848 discuss how there is ‘No Salvation outside the Church.’ I spent quite some time in study, prayer, and meditation on this section of the Magisterium of Mother Church. I must admit in humility that I can not claim a full understanding of these teachings and their applications, and a theologian would be a better person to inquire in depth questions of.
I must add, in humility and charity, that there are two footnotes attached to CCC 841, which point to the source of this paragraph. The first is LG 16 which reference ‘Lumen Gentium’ which was one of the constitutions of Vatican II, promulgated by Holiness Pope Paul VI on November 21, 1964. The second footnote, NA 3, is in reference to ‘Nostre Aetate,’ a decleration of Vatican II, also promulgated by Holiness Pope Paul VI, October 28, 1965. Therefore, paragraph 841 should be attributed to Pope Paul VI, not Pope John Paul II.
Do Muslims and Christians share the same God. I wouldn’t phrase it like that. I would say that while Muslims and Christians do offer worship to the same God, they do not have the same vision of God, or view their relationship with God the same. Paragraph 841 acknowledges that muslims, are decendents of Abraham through Ishmael, and that they have a role in the plan of salvation, though it does not get into what that role is. My understanding would be that the faith of Islam does not contain the fullness of revelation that leads a soul to heaven, but that God in His infinite love and mercy rains down sufficient graces on all of mankind that enables those who through " through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation." (CCC 847) I would point out that it says may.
I would also like to share something I read, concerning the very meeting that started this discussion
chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=45084&eng=y
May the peace of God be with you,
TW Pope
K
kalt
Guest
You are saying that they don’t worship the god of Abraham, but you have no idea what god they worship. If you don’t know what god they worship, how can you say that it isn’t the god of Abraham.
It’s like you’re saying that I didn’t have an egg for breakfast yesterday, and when someone asks what I did have, you admit that you have no idea, but you know it wasn’t an egg. You aren’t interested in what I had for breakfast, just in that you insist I didn’t have an egg. When asked how you know it wasn’t an egg that I had, you merely insist that you know it wasn’t an egg. When asked what I did have, then, you say that that’s not the point–what I actually had for breakfast isn’t the point. The point is what I didn’t have for breakfast, an egg, according to you. You have no evidence that I didn’t have an egg. You have no evidence that I had something else. You know I had breakfast, but you don’t care what that actually was. All you’re saying is that I didn’t have an egg, and that anyone who says I did, including me, is wrong.
There is a correct way to have an egg for breakfast. There’s only one correct way.
Jews have eggs boiled. Some Christians eat only the egg whites, fried. Catholics have eggs poached. And Muslims have them raw.
There is only one correct way to have an egg for breakfast, but they’re all having eggs. You can’t deny the egg, even if it’s not cooked correctly–or at all.
K
kalt
Guest
The CCC isn’t saying that Muslims are Christians. It isn’t saying that Islam walks in lockstep with the CC. It isn’t even saying that there is much similarity in the two religions. It merely says that they worship “adore” the same god. It says nothing about what the Muslims believe about that god or how they worship Him.
All the CC says is that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God. Christians acknowledge that Jesus is God. Jews and Muslims don’t. If someone is going to say that Muslims don’t worship the same God because they don’t accept Jesus as God, then they must also say that the Jews don’t worship the same God, because Jews certainly don’t say that Jesus is God.
This special case seems to be for Islam only, though. If the only people who believe in the one god are those who agree with your interpretation of God, then the only people who worship the one god are Catholics. Jews don’t agree with the CC. Non-Catholic Christians don’t agree with the CC on the Word of God.
So why single out Islam?
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russell007
Guest
Hello Rob
I would like to answer through a view point if I may.
You have to remember God is way more vast than the bible itself. Therefore it may look like he is changing on the surface however when you look at our infanate God how could you ever know everything about him? and as the information about him unfolds and you find out more and more about him (remember youll never ever know everthing about him).
Did he change? or are we just learning more and more about him.
Take a physical look at infinity Heres a link. This is the closest to having a understanding about what infinity means. Continue clicking on any fractal of your choice until you get tired lol Youll never reach the end. Thats how I see God or at least able to have some grasping knowlege of his eternity.
This is a mathmatical look at eternity NOT a web game.
There are plenty of mandelbrot applets/generators to choose one from a search engine.
For me I can spend hours following one fractal. Once you dive in youl see colours and shapes its awesome how they have it set up.
utopiansky.com/labratory/fractals/
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dzheremi
Guest
I know I said I’d ignore you, but since you are mis-stating my position, I need to correct you here. What I actually posted was:
Really, Kalt, when the point of the post is to say that I won’t speculate on what Muslims worship beyond saying that I don’t recognize it as what I’m worshipping, you have to really twist that around in order to continue this argument of yours. Maybe some Muslims worship God outside of the confines of Islam, but those that follow orthodox Islam believe in the god of the Qur’an, who left a dictated book to a self-proclaimed illiterate which contradicted His OWN previous word (if we are going with this idea that the God of the Bible = Islam’s Allah). As I don’t recognize the Qur’an as the word of God, I don’t know how it is that I can recognize the Allah of Islam as my God. It’s really NOT a matter of getting the details wrong, but having a completely different system of epistemology that absolutely contradicts Christianity, that generates error because at its root it is erroneous. At its root, it does not come from God, but from something else (and I don’t speculate where).
The only context I can see in which Muslims and Christians can be said to be worshipping the same God is strictly outside of the Islamic system of revelation (I don’t know how else you can say the Qur’an is not from God, as I suspect all Christians would say, yet still say that we all worship the same God), but this makes no sense because outside of that revelation THERE IS NO ISLAM. If there is no Qur’an, there is no Islam, and hence no claim that Muslims worship the same God (because there are no Muslims to begin with). This is why I keep asking HOW it is that Muslims are “together with us”?".If they worship the same God as we do but only outside of Islam, then it is not true that Muslims worship our God. It is in effect saying “People claiming to be Muslims may worship the same God as we do, but only if they give up actually being Muslims, since Islam is ultimately wrong”. Simplying stating that Muslims together with us worship (adore, whatever) the one true God and leaving it at that does not hold water, because when you actually look into it you either have to affirm the only way through which they say it is acceptable to know God (affirm the Qur’an as a holy book that is from our God, which it isn’t), or say that SOMEHOW they’re worshipping our God, but it is really in spite of their being Muslims, NOT a characteristic of the Islamic religion.
So it is still not the case that the Allah of Islam is the same as the God of Christianity! It MAY be the case that some Muslims may worship our God, but those who do so must (either knowingly or not) reject Islam in the process. This is as charitable as I can be.
This is a ridiculous analogy that doesn’t work at all. I’ll try to fix it so that you can see why it doesn’t work. The question was NEVER “what did you have for breakfast?” (= “who/what do Muslims worship?”). It was “If I am convinced that you and I didn’t have the same thing for breakfast, is there any good reason to change my mind?”
This is really silly. You’re presuming that I accept your premise that we’re all having eggs in the first place. Read this thread; obviously that’s a false assumption.
I think I might just bus my own tray and go eat with the Orthodox. They’ve got shashlik and blinchiki and I don’t need to risk getting stabbed for being a “blasphemer” while praying over my food.
K
kalt
Guest
Of course I don’t presume that. That is exactly what you’re denying–that because they eat their eggs raw, they aren’t eating eggs. You don’t “recognize” it as a breakfast egg, because it’s not cooked the way you’re used to.
Go where you will. What difference does that make? What does it have to do with the question? Why mention it here? A Goodbye cruel forum post?
J
josie_L
Guest
What you don’t seem to be getting Vicki is that Dzheremi is questioning the authority of the Church (read his original post) over this point of contention? Do you wish for Dzheremi to leave the Catholic Church (Christ’s church) because of this? God bless.
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