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dzheremi
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Sorry, Kalt, I should have made more of an effort to be clear that this was a joke. I wouldn’t convert for food.
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kalt
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lol :d
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russell007
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Booklover
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No, I certainly do not want Dzheremi to leave the Church because of that statement and it brought tears to my eyes to think he might. I even posted a question about it on the Ask An Apologist section which ended on the cutting room floor. If it had been important a reply would have been forthcoming. The Catechism uses the word profess for the Muslim claim and it’s important to the rest of 841. I looked the word up in the dictionary and here’s what it says among other things:
1.to lay claim to, often insincerely; pretend to: He professed extreme regret.
2.to declare openly; announce or affirm; avow or acknowledge: *to profess one’s satisfaction. *
3. to affirm faith in or allegiance to (a religion, God, etc
For the last time, ALL THAT 841 IS DOING IS STATING THE MUSLIM BELIEF and taking it at face value, giving it the benefit of the doubt, whatever. “Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham”, so the Church offers the olive branch “and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” It has nothing to do with the dogma of the Church or its authority.
Vickie
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kalt
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josie_L
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Thank you Vicki!
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russell007
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russell007;5900276:
I understand. Thanks for clearing that up!
Peace be with you and your family
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dzheremi
Guest
I’m not contesting the authority of the Church to proclaim this or that. I’m actually contesting the truth of something that is claimed in the CCC, which, as I wrote in the first post, I recognize as not being literal dogma in all places. Obviously Vickie can disagree with the understanding that many here have expressed of this “together with us” clause in CCC 841 that and still be Catholic, so I don’t know why I can’t too. If I end up leaving the Church it will not be because of this one issue or any one issue. That is a honest mistake of well-meaning, faithful Catholics: To assume that anyone who leaves the Church must be doing so over this or that particular issue, rather than something deeper and more pervasive, such as the mechanism by which dogma is proclaimed within the Church in the first place, or the implications of a given dogma on the continuity and faith of the Church itself (e.g., if Papal Infallability is affirmed as something that has always been believed, then are the proclamations of past Popes regarding matters of faith and morals to be treated as infallibile? Such as, say, Pope Leo III’s opposition to the addition of the filioque to the Nicene Creed?)
These are the sorts of reasons that I have heard most often from people who have left the Church for Orthodoxy, which to me is the only “valid” (for lack of a better way to put it) move to make, as they maintain Apostolic succession and valid sacraments. Generally the people I know who have left over a particular stance on some issue (e.g., abortion, gay marriage, etc.) either did not join another church or joined a Protestant church that allows them to keep intact their view on whatever the offending issue is.
These are the sorts of reasons that I have heard most often from people who have left the Church for Orthodoxy, which to me is the only “valid” (for lack of a better way to put it) move to make, as they maintain Apostolic succession and valid sacraments. Generally the people I know who have left over a particular stance on some issue (e.g., abortion, gay marriage, etc.) either did not join another church or joined a Protestant church that allows them to keep intact their view on whatever the offending issue is.
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hamba2han
Guest
Once upon a time, there were 3 tribes who lived near each other and while they had their differences, the thing that they had in common was that they all worshipped the Sun.
Tribe C had no problem at all in proclaiming that all 3 tribes were worshipping the same Sun, but strangely, quite a few members of tribe B were adamantly refusing to acknowledge that tribe C was worshipping the same Sun that they were worshipping.
As for tribe A, the problem with them was that they seem to have gotten carried away by the notion that they were indeed the ‘A-team’. And so, they felt that this made them superior to the ‘B-team’ and also the ‘C-team’ and hence they do not seem to care much about which tribe was worshipping which Sun.
I am not quite sure what happened to these 3 tribes.
Tribe C had no problem at all in proclaiming that all 3 tribes were worshipping the same Sun, but strangely, quite a few members of tribe B were adamantly refusing to acknowledge that tribe C was worshipping the same Sun that they were worshipping.
As for tribe A, the problem with them was that they seem to have gotten carried away by the notion that they were indeed the ‘A-team’. And so, they felt that this made them superior to the ‘B-team’ and also the ‘C-team’ and hence they do not seem to care much about which tribe was worshipping which Sun.
I am not quite sure what happened to these 3 tribes.
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planten
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**[2:132] وَوَصّٰى بِهَآ اِبْرٰهٖمُ بَنِيْهِ وَ يَعْقُوْبُؕ يٰبَنِىَّ اِنَّ اللّٰهَ اصْطَفٰى لَـكُمُ الدِّيْنَ فَلَا تَمُوْتُنَّ اِلَّا وَاَنْتُمْ مُّسْلِمُوْنَؕ
[2:132] The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons — and so did Jacob — saying: ‘O my sons, truly Allah has chosen this religion for you; so let not death overtake you except when you are in a state of submission.’
[2:133] اَمْ كُنْتُمْ شُهَدَآءَ اِذْ حَضَرَ يَعْقُوْبَ الْمَوْتُۙ اِذْ قَالَ لِبَنِيْهِ مَا تَعْبُدُوْنَ مِنْۢ بَعْدِىْؕ قَالُوْا نَعْبُدُ اِلٰهَكَ وَاِلٰهَ اٰبَآٮِٕكَ اِبْرٰهٖمَ وَاِسْمٰعِيْلَ وَاِسْحٰقَ اِلٰهًا وَّاحِدًا ۖۚ وَّنَحْنُ لَهٗ مُسْلِمُوْنَ
[2:133] Were you present when death came to Jacob, when he said to his sons, ‘What will you worship after me?’ They answered, ‘We will worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, the One God; and to Him we submit ourselves.’
[2:134] تِلْكَ اُمَّةٌ قَدْ خَلَتْۚ لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَلَـكُمْ مَّا كَسَبْتُمْۚ وَلَا تُسْـَٔـلُوْنَ عَمَّا كَانُوْا يَعْمَلُوْنَ
[2:134] Those are a people that have passed away; for them is what they earned, and for you shall be what you earn; and you shall not be questioned as to what they did.
[2:135] وَقَالُوْا کُوْنُوْا هُوْدًا اَوْ نَصٰرٰى تَهْتَدُوْاؕ قُلْ بَلْ مِلَّةَ اِبْرٰهٖمَ حَنِيْفًاؕ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِيْنَ
نَ
[2:135] And they say, ‘Be ye Jews or Christians that you may be rightly guided.’ Say: ‘Nay, follow ye the religion of Abraham who was ever inclined to God; he was not of those who set up gods with God.’
[2:136] قُوْلُوْٓا اٰمَنَّا بِاللّٰهِ وَمَآ اُنْزِلَ اِلَيْنَا وَمَآ اُنْزِلَ اِلٰٓى اِبْرٰهٖمَ وَاِسْمٰعِيْلَ وَاِسْحٰقَ وَيَعْقُوْبَ وَ الْاَسْبَاطِ وَمَآ اُوْتِىَ مُوْسَىٰ وَعِيْسٰى وَمَآ اُوْتِىَ النَّبِيُّوْنَ مِنْ رَّبِّهِمْۚ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ اَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهٗ مُسْلِمُوْنَ
[2:136] Say ye: ‘We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob and his children, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to all other Prophets from their Lord. We make no difference between any of them; and to Him we submit ourselves.**
The discussion is about Muslims worshipping the God of Abraham. There is only one God. Every one may have different understanding of that God. Who is more correct can be found out by referring to the sacred texts of each religion. We Muslims believe that our God is the same as that of the Jews (Unitarian) and not the same as that of the christians.(Trinitarian). But that is open to discussion.
We do not believe that God of Abraham was same as that of present day christians. Abraham never knew the son of God or Jesus or Trinity.
The verse 2:136 of the Quran makes it clear that Muslims worship (or they are told to worship) the same God as that of Abraham, Ishmael, Issac, Jacob and his children and the God of Moses and Jesus. We know Jesus had a God to whom he used to pray.
So the matter is proved from the Quran. Now it would be good of the christians to prove from their book (Bible NT) that they are told to follow the religion (or worship theGod) of Abraham. The proof should come from the bible, not from any ones mind please.
[2:132] The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons — and so did Jacob — saying: ‘O my sons, truly Allah has chosen this religion for you; so let not death overtake you except when you are in a state of submission.’
[2:133] اَمْ كُنْتُمْ شُهَدَآءَ اِذْ حَضَرَ يَعْقُوْبَ الْمَوْتُۙ اِذْ قَالَ لِبَنِيْهِ مَا تَعْبُدُوْنَ مِنْۢ بَعْدِىْؕ قَالُوْا نَعْبُدُ اِلٰهَكَ وَاِلٰهَ اٰبَآٮِٕكَ اِبْرٰهٖمَ وَاِسْمٰعِيْلَ وَاِسْحٰقَ اِلٰهًا وَّاحِدًا ۖۚ وَّنَحْنُ لَهٗ مُسْلِمُوْنَ
[2:133] Were you present when death came to Jacob, when he said to his sons, ‘What will you worship after me?’ They answered, ‘We will worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, the One God; and to Him we submit ourselves.’
[2:134] تِلْكَ اُمَّةٌ قَدْ خَلَتْۚ لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَلَـكُمْ مَّا كَسَبْتُمْۚ وَلَا تُسْـَٔـلُوْنَ عَمَّا كَانُوْا يَعْمَلُوْنَ
[2:134] Those are a people that have passed away; for them is what they earned, and for you shall be what you earn; and you shall not be questioned as to what they did.
[2:135] وَقَالُوْا کُوْنُوْا هُوْدًا اَوْ نَصٰرٰى تَهْتَدُوْاؕ قُلْ بَلْ مِلَّةَ اِبْرٰهٖمَ حَنِيْفًاؕ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِيْنَ
نَ
[2:135] And they say, ‘Be ye Jews or Christians that you may be rightly guided.’ Say: ‘Nay, follow ye the religion of Abraham who was ever inclined to God; he was not of those who set up gods with God.’
[2:136] قُوْلُوْٓا اٰمَنَّا بِاللّٰهِ وَمَآ اُنْزِلَ اِلَيْنَا وَمَآ اُنْزِلَ اِلٰٓى اِبْرٰهٖمَ وَاِسْمٰعِيْلَ وَاِسْحٰقَ وَيَعْقُوْبَ وَ الْاَسْبَاطِ وَمَآ اُوْتِىَ مُوْسَىٰ وَعِيْسٰى وَمَآ اُوْتِىَ النَّبِيُّوْنَ مِنْ رَّبِّهِمْۚ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ اَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهٗ مُسْلِمُوْنَ
[2:136] Say ye: ‘We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob and his children, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to all other Prophets from their Lord. We make no difference between any of them; and to Him we submit ourselves.**
The discussion is about Muslims worshipping the God of Abraham. There is only one God. Every one may have different understanding of that God. Who is more correct can be found out by referring to the sacred texts of each religion. We Muslims believe that our God is the same as that of the Jews (Unitarian) and not the same as that of the christians.(Trinitarian). But that is open to discussion.
We do not believe that God of Abraham was same as that of present day christians. Abraham never knew the son of God or Jesus or Trinity.
The verse 2:136 of the Quran makes it clear that Muslims worship (or they are told to worship) the same God as that of Abraham, Ishmael, Issac, Jacob and his children and the God of Moses and Jesus. We know Jesus had a God to whom he used to pray.
So the matter is proved from the Quran. Now it would be good of the christians to prove from their book (Bible NT) that they are told to follow the religion (or worship theGod) of Abraham. The proof should come from the bible, not from any ones mind please.
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dzheremi
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Planten…buddy…pal…akhy…please, do not turn this thread into a playground for your “proof” from the Qur’an or accusations against Christianity. We don’t need to prove anything about our religion to you (you never accept anything as proof anyway). What I have raised is an internal matter. To the extent that a Muslim’s commentary might be useful (which is to say, minimally at best), the same cannot be said about the commentary provided by the Qur’an.
Also, your recent posts left me with some hope that you had grown out of the “giant, specially colored font” phase in your posting. I am disappointed, man! Please reconsider before you next think of posting something in large red/green/blue/purple font.
Also, your recent posts left me with some hope that you had grown out of the “giant, specially colored font” phase in your posting. I am disappointed, man! Please reconsider before you next think of posting something in large red/green/blue/purple font.
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Hadi
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dzheremi,
Do you believe that Unitarian Christians and those who have different beliefs on Christology (e.g Christ has one nature …etc) believe in the same God ?
the reason I ask is , it seems that you don’t have a set of criteria that can be applied equally to any other group…
Do you believe that Unitarian Christians and those who have different beliefs on Christology (e.g Christ has one nature …etc) believe in the same God ?
the reason I ask is , it seems that you don’t have a set of criteria that can be applied equally to any other group…
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dzheremi
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“Unitarian” Christians? You mean those who do not believe in the Trinity, but still call themselves Christian? I know they exist, but I have never encountered them in person, and anyway their rejection is in direct contradiction to the teachings of Christ and His apostles, so I do not consider them Christian, no.
As for the non-Chalcedonians (I assume that this is what you mean when you say “one nature”) like the Copts, Ethiopians, Armenians, etc., yes, they are Christians. Why wouldn’t they be? They disagree with the council of Chalcedon for their own reasons, which I am not nearly knowledgeable enough to expound upon, but a different Christological concept does not mean a different Christ. They recognize the divinity of Christ.
What Muslims and other non-Christians have is not a different Christological concept, as Christological debate is traditionally concerned with how the divine and the human co-exist within the person of Christ, which is not something “unitarians”, Muslims, and the like accept as being a reality in the first place. In other words, Christians do not argue whether or not He is divine, we all believe that He is. Rather, Christological arguments concern how His divinity and His humanity is manifest in His person.
From wikipedia article “Christology” (emphasis mine):
Christology is related to questions concerning the nature of God like Trinitarianism, Unitarianism or Binitarianism. However, from a Christian perspective, these questions are concerned with how the divine persons relate to one another, whereas Christology is concerned with the meeting of the human (Son of Man) and divine (God the Son or Word of God) in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.
As for the non-Chalcedonians (I assume that this is what you mean when you say “one nature”) like the Copts, Ethiopians, Armenians, etc., yes, they are Christians. Why wouldn’t they be? They disagree with the council of Chalcedon for their own reasons, which I am not nearly knowledgeable enough to expound upon, but a different Christological concept does not mean a different Christ. They recognize the divinity of Christ.
What Muslims and other non-Christians have is not a different Christological concept, as Christological debate is traditionally concerned with how the divine and the human co-exist within the person of Christ, which is not something “unitarians”, Muslims, and the like accept as being a reality in the first place. In other words, Christians do not argue whether or not He is divine, we all believe that He is. Rather, Christological arguments concern how His divinity and His humanity is manifest in His person.
From wikipedia article “Christology” (emphasis mine):
Christology is related to questions concerning the nature of God like Trinitarianism, Unitarianism or Binitarianism. However, from a Christian perspective, these questions are concerned with how the divine persons relate to one another, whereas Christology is concerned with the meeting of the human (Son of Man) and divine (God the Son or Word of God) in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.
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Hadi
Guest
But where do you draw the line…I don’t quite understand why you object to Unitarian Christians (I’m assuming you believe that they don’t worship the same God) and not to the Jews…
I also don’t see this topic being popular in the debates between Muslims and Christians in the early centuries…they were mostly centred around the prophethood of Mohammed and the Quran on the Muslim side, and Jesus and the Bible on the Christian side .
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dzheremi
Guest
The Jews do not claim to be Christians, though. You asked me specifically about unitarian and non-Chalcedonian Christians. As I’ve written to others in this thread, we must consider each group on in a unique light because our differences with Jews are not necessarily all the same or analogous to our differences with Muslims, Mormons, Hindus, etc. It is not very helpful to lump so many different religious traditions together.
I honestly do not know enough about how non-Trinitians came to their beliefs to hold any more detailed opinion on them. I do not think that they are all that relevant to this discussion, which is about whether or not it is right for a Christian to say that he worships the same God as Muslims do (or vice-versa), and if it is right, why, and it if it is not right, why is it not right.
I think you are right that this was not a topic explored in early Muslim-Christian debate. I have never found any explicit reference to it in any early dialogues I have read. This is hardly surprising, given the view held by many early Christians that Islam was essentially a Christian heresy (if you were a Christian, you might see this easier from knowledge of non-canonical books and Biblical stories that show up in the Qur’an in various distorted forms), not a “new” or “different” religion. It was an elevation of an amalgamation of pre-existing heresies.
I myself do not share this view, though I can see why the early Christians might have. Other analyses I have read that are more favorable to Islam suggest that it was these similarities that helped Islam so rapidly convert so much of the Christian East, as it offered in essence a “simplified” version of their faith, as it was presented by Muslims as the continuation and perfection of what came before it. This seems reasonable, but I digress…
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morning_star777
Guest
Dear planten, please start another thread,if you want to play your old broken record.
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planten
Guest
Hadi, I do not see any problem with Unitarian christians. They believe in One God. So do the Catholics here. In that respect they are all Unitarians. Let the Catholics believe in Trinity according to their own principles. But they admit that they believe in One God. As long as God is One, there is no problem. That is same as the Jews and the Muslims and the Unitarian christians. So we are all together. Please Celebrate.
Hadi, thanks for digging out the Unitarian christians. They may be very useful people. Are they available even today?
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