Sometimes it seems like NFP is part of the problem

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thewanderer said:
I think you are misunderstanding the point. The point isn’t to say that we need to let our kids be raised by people with opposing values to our own. Rather, it is to say that raising a family is really too much work for just two people.
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I’m not misunderstanding the point. I agree with you. But the reality for many of us is that we don’t have such an environment of likeminded people who can and are willing to help us. I certainly don’t. I lived in the UK before Malaysia, a very secular country. It was very difficult to meet likeminded people - practicing Catholics, it took some serious effort. And even then there were very few or even no families with young children in my parish (several parishes that I belonged to over the course of the years, to be precise) and the prayer groups I went to. How are my children supposed to make friends among other Cathoic children in such circumstances? How am I supposed to form friendships with other Catholic moms when I can’t find them?

I know that many people don’t find themselves in a situation as bad as that one, but it is still difficult. The wider culture is not Christian in many places and networking can be close to impossible. 😦
 
Contra_Mundum said:
I’m not misunderstanding the point. I agree with you. But the reality for many of us is that we don’t have such an environment of likeminded people who can and are willing to help us. I certainly don’t. I lived in the UK before Malaysia, a very secular country. It was very difficult to meet likeminded people - practicing Catholics, it took some serious effort. And even then there were very few or even no families with young children in my parish (several parishes that I belonged to over the course of the years, to be precise) and the prayer groups I went to. How are my children supposed to make friends among other Cathoic children in such circumstances? How am I supposed to form friendships with other Catholic moms when I can’t find them?

I know that many people don’t find themselves in a situation as bad as that one, but it is still difficult. The wider culture is not Christian in many places and networking can be close to impossible. 😦
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I’m sorry if I misunderstood the intention of your earlier post. 🙂
 
Contra_Mundum said:
I know that many people don’t find themselves in a situation as bad as that one, but it is still difficult. The wider culture is not Christian in many places and networking can be close to impossible. 😦
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I agree. Living in the US it’s a bit better but not much and it really depends on where you live. I live in a fairly conservative area and there are still lots of Christians (more protestant than Catholic and Orthodox). In fact our city was nicknamed the city of churches b/c there were so many downtown. Our numbers have dwindled over the years but I still know a good deal of Christians. However I think that as a society we have lost alot of family time. People these days are so busy with a ridiculous amount of extracurricular activities that it really is hard to make friends and “hang out” so to speak. I’m a mostly stay at home mom but I go to school part time and will be working as a Massage Therapist this June once I graduate and get certified. But staying at home all day without anyone to talk to is so depressing especially in the winter! And it’s not for lack of trying…people are just too busy for human contact it seems. I think that’s what fueled my desire to be a massage therapist…
 
Angel_Gabriel said:
But staying at home all day without anyone to talk to is so depressing especially in the winter! …
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That’s why I spend so much time on CAF and reading Catholic blogs. :o I just don’t know many Catholics in real life and I crave their company.
 
mommamaree said:
Me too.
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Me three.

I have a women’s group that I go to at my parish. It’s hit or miss though because so many of them are cradle Catholics that don’t know all that much about the faith.

They are absolutely floored by the RCIA converts that come in and how knowledgable we are. 🤷

Almost makes you think that RCIA should be done for everyone every 5 years or so. 🤷

I can’t really complain too much…some of these women are awesome…so it balances itself out. It’s only every other week…and I’m a SAHM. So, I do frequent these sites quite a bit.
 
thewanderer said:
I think you are misunderstanding the point. The point isn’t to say that we need to let our kids be raised by people with opposing values to our own. Rather, it is to say that raising a family is really too much work for just two people. While two people should obviously hold the responsibility for raising the children, they need help. They need people they can rely on, who share their values (or will at the very least respect their values and the fact that that is how they are raising their kids) who can step in and help the parents out as needed. Its not saying that we need to hand our kids over to a secular state, but rather just that parents need help. they need support. They can’t do it on their own, or, at least, it is extremely difficult to manage on ones own. I don’t think anybody can really dispute that.
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Yes, that was what I meant by including the “village” analogy. The negative side, the concept of turning childrearing over the state is the bad interpretation. But the idea of helping one another out is the positive way it can be interpreted.

Sadly, too, with many people in modern society only wanting two kids max or even only one kid, there aren’t as many older children to help out in some of the tasks of rearing little ones. The model of the family has changed since our grandparents’ or great-grandparents’ time - and so have the economics.

It’s a hard problem to solve - we don’t want to go clear back to the sexist model where although a man could get a job and benefits sufficient to support a family, women were not allowed to have any career at all and were belittled. But things have swung so far and we have become reliant on daycare and moms who would like to stay home often can’t for money reasons. And dads who would like to be able to help their wives be able to get out of the rat race may not be able to earn enough money to make it happen.
Angel_Gabriel said:
I agree. Living in the US it’s a bit better but not much and it really depends on where you live. I live in a fairly conservative area and there are still lots of Christians (more protestant than Catholic and Orthodox). In fact our city was nicknamed the city of churches b/c there were so many downtown. Our numbers have dwindled over the years but I still know a good deal of Christians. However I think that as a society we have lost alot of family time. People these days are so busy with a ridiculous amount of extracurricular activities that it really is hard to make friends and “hang out” so to speak. I’m a mostly stay at home mom but I go to school part time and will be working as a Massage Therapist this June once I graduate and get certified. But staying at home all day without anyone to talk to is so depressing especially in the winter! And it’s not for lack of trying…people are just too busy for human contact it seems. I think that’s what fueled my desire to be a massage therapist…
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It’s kind of ironic that even though families are under the pressures I described above, they still try to add more and more activities in. There’s the whole stereotype pattern of the yuppies who started in the womb trying to prepare their child for an Ivy League college with all the “enrichment” they could provide, and in varying degrees that mentality has filtered down to many strata of society. And there are the social pressures for children. Even if you have a close family and do educational and recreational things together, so you are also having family time, your kids are going to want to be like their peers with all the sports and lessons and extras that sometimes can drain a family of time and money. Then the husband and wife tend to shy away from the idea of being open to more kids.
 
3DOCTORS said:
Someone just posted this link on Facebook - it says it all!

houseunseen.com/2013/04/nfp-doesnt-work-you-have-so-many-kids.html
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The only reason to learn NFP is to avoid children for a period, or in preparation to do so should the need arise. So of course people are going to be more concerned about NFP being effective at avoiding pregnancy than achieving. I don’t believe that question “does it work?” in itself reveals any prejudice against children. And many people have very serious reasons for avoiding children so I don’t believe instructors should be so dismissive of the question.

I also don’t understand the need to label every woman, no matter her situation in life, as using NFP. Pregnancy is not so much of a puzzle that most women need to take a class and chart to achieve it and NFP is not required or even advisable for most couples.
 
KostyaJMJ said:
The only reason to learn NFP is to avoid children for a period, or in preparation to do so should the need arise. So of course people are going to be more concerned about NFP being effective at avoiding pregnancy than achieving. I don’t believe that question “does it work?” in itself reveals any prejudice against children. And many people have very serious reasons for avoiding children so I don’t believe instructors should be so dismissive of the question.

I also don’t understand the need to label every woman, no matter her situation in life, as using NFP. Pregnancy is not so much of a puzzle that most women need to take a class and chart to achieve it and NFP is not required or even advisable for most couples.
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I’m sorry, but that is just not true. NFP is used for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes it is used to avoid children, sometimes to conceive children, sometimes to make a womans life easier by giving her some warning when her PMS and Period are going to come, sometimes to determine medical issues, sometimes just simply for knowing and understanding more about ones health and fertility. NFP is often, incorrectly, restricted by people to its use for avoidance of children, but it has many many more uses. I am firmly convinced that all teen girls should be taught how to chart, for all sorts of reasons.
 
thewanderer said:
I’m sorry, but that is just not true. NFP is used for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes it is used to avoid children, sometimes to conceive children, sometimes to make a womans life easier by giving her some warning when her PMS and Period are going to come, sometimes to determine medical issues, sometimes just simply for knowing and understanding more about ones health and fertility. NFP is often, incorrectly, restricted by people to its use for avoidance of children, but it has many many more uses. I am firmly convinced that all teen girls should be taught how to chart, for all sorts of reasons.
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I agree. Even if we weren’t TTA I would still keep on charting b/c it lets me know that my body is (or isn’t) working right and if it isn’t working right, it’s a step in the right direction to finding out WHY. I definitely want to teach it to my girls just so they can know more about their bodies…I was so clueless about it!
 
thewanderer said:
I’m sorry, but that is just not true. NFP is used for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes it is used to avoid children, sometimes to conceive children, sometimes to make a womans life easier by giving her some warning when her PMS and Period are going to come, sometimes to determine medical issues, sometimes just simply for knowing and understanding more about ones health and fertility. NFP is often, incorrectly, restricted by people to its use for avoidance of children, but it has many many more uses. I am firmly convinced that all teen girls should be taught how to chart, for all sorts of reasons.
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NFP has so many positive uses.

I’ve used it to avoid and achieve pregnancy.
It can be used to help diagnose medical conditions like PCOS and other fertility issues.

It’s becoming a bit more popular in the secular crowd as a “green” alternative to ABC. It’s referred to as Fertility Awareness Method (FAM).
When I’ve had discussions with other, secular, women about ABC…they are fascinated with NFP.
Most aren’t convinced it will work…but they have all agreed that ABC is not healthy either and would be open to alternatives.
 
Christy_Beth said:
I know it’s hard to have several children. And if I remember it right, there are occasional NFP classes offered here in my Archdiocese. Maybe that could be held more often, or given to the couple during their engagement. But my biggest concern are those men who don’t care what day of the month it is. It’s like there are many of them out there (I’m not going to say all) who want sex full time. 😦 They really need to respect their wives and learn some self control.
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Hard do have several children?

It. is. a. BLESSING.

I can’t wait to have a larger family!
 
eonporter said:
Hard do have several children?

It. is. a. BLESSING.

I can’t wait to have a larger family!
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Your are both correct. It is a blessing. It is also hard. 🙂

Then again, there are hardships in everyone’s life from time to time. Those who* don’t* have large families will face other difficulties. I’ve seen the crosses that some of my friends carry–friends who didn’t want more than one or two in their younger years. Their lives are hard in ways that mine has never been.

But…I’m not living that life anymore. I’m here in the middle of my own life, raising a large family, and --yes-- sometimes it’s hard. It’s* not* wrong to say that it’s hard to have several children. The error is thinking that life would be easier without them.
 
3DOCTORS said:
Or at least the way it may be being presented to engaged couples in marriage prep programs.

When reading CAF threads by married couples, I am struck more and more by many threads that all go basically something like this:

    • My husband/wife and I have been practicing NFP but now we’re expecting another child in only x number of years.
    • We don’t want to use contraception but we don’t know what to do OR we are considering using contraception even though we know it’s wrong
    • In short, we didn’t bargain for this!
    To which I’m tempted to say, yes, you did bargain for this when you got married. But I have sympathy for their distress, too, don’t get me wrong.

    I know it’s hard having several children close together. And very difficult if there are health concerns for mother or child, or serious financial concerns (not just “we won’t be able to afford that Lexus now” first-world problems).

    I’m almost wondering, though, if in marriage prep programs couples are being given the NFP instruction as “Catholic birth control” because the Church feels backed into a corner by couples who threaten to use contraception. And probably a lot of them go to marriage prep and roll their eyes at the NFP materials because they’ve already made up their minds that they will use artificial contraception no matter what.

    I propose the following - it’s going to sound crazy, but at least follow what I’m saying please, before dismissing it as absurd:
    • Give couples a brief overview of NFP and a contact for classes and let it be up to them to pursue if and when a genuine need arises.
    • Emphasize more that it should be used when needed and for serious reasons. This way it won’t be taken for granted as de rigeur, and then be a source of disappointment when it “fails” to function as “Catholic birth control” and a pregnancy occurs.
    • Without falling into the trap of saying that a couple must have a huge family, somehow get across the idea that God may have in mind a larger family than they think they want, and that if this is a dealbreaker, maybe they should take more time discerning whether to get married, or at least postpone getting married until they are sure they can be okay with this.
    Your thoughts?
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  1. I think your proposal is a good start. Although, honestly, the first thing that needs to be done is for priests and parishes to talk about NFP more. I can guarantee that most Catholics (I’m not talking about Catholics on CAF) have no idea what NFP is. Whenever I’ve talked about it with other people, they have no idea what it is and what it stands for. Actually, they all thought that the Catholic form of “contraception” was the rhythm method, which was poo-pooed right away. Yes, so many, including people my age, still think this. And I admit, that is what my husband and I thought as well. We did not receive any information on NFP during our Pre-Cana class. I only found out about it a few years after I got married on a secular wedding website by one of the CAF members. Funny thing is that my non-religious sister-in-law knew about it and practiced it, learning from a secular group who was into living life organically, naturally, and being green.

    Much more education on NFP needs to be readily and easily available Catholics, especially to young Catholics. Literature should be out on the tables at the back and vestibules of churches. Classes should be more available and announced after mass. It seems that the ball has been dropped on this. People are ok talking about sex outright, but when it comes to talking about and encouraging NFP, we become a bit victorian and hesitant in our approach to it… at least that is what it seems to me in my area.
 
Good insight, Sarabande. 🙂 I guess I’m blessed to be in a diocese where it is well promoted.

I like how you bring out that there are two extremes of opinion that some people fall into erroneously. On the one hand, likening NFP to the old “rhythm method” aka “Vatican roulette” :rolleyes: which people dismiss with scorn. On the other hand, and I realize that in the past I have been guilty of this one myself - talking it up as “Catholic birth control.” My defense for that is that I was trying to steer people away from using artificial birth control.

But maybe it is better not to dumb it down. NFP deserves to be presented within the context of Church teaching on marriage, along with explanations of why Church teaching on marriage is good. More emphasis should be placed on convincing skeptics of both points.

There is also the context of sacrifice and communication within marriage that should be brought out; IMO, it should be a red flag if either prospective spouse reserves in their mind the option of using ABC. It’s kind of like having a prenup, or thinking till death do us part unless (whatever one’s dealbreaker issue is) comes up. There is a lack of total self-giving.

Having not been married, I turn to the example of my relationship as daughter of my mother, who was ill the last few years of her life and in a nursing home. It gave me a whole new perspective on what true love and sacrifice entail. Sometimes it just ain’t pretty, but at the end of the day you know in your heart you have done the right thing. And I did it because . . . wait for it . . . she was my mom. She was family.

I think there’s a disconnect in modern society (I blame the rise in cohabitation for a lot of it) between the idea of getting married and having a big wedding and buying a home and “planning” to have a family, and the realization that, with marriage, you are already beginning a family. And that will normally include children.

If your spouse becomes disabled, or other challenges arise as they certainly will in any marriage - including the challenges of pregnancies and raising kids - it’s the time to pull together and pray and love all the more, not to be bickering, or scheming about how you will avoid Church teaching. This also goes the other way for fertility treatments, in not going for those such as IVF that are against Church teaching. Because that spouse is family. And your job is to help each other and any children you have get to Heaven. So you should try not to be in opposition, with one party trying to force on the other party the option of doing something that is sinful.

None of this is easy. And I sympathize the most with those who really tried to live up to the highest standards of all this and are facing gutwrenching choices. The merely sexually and/or materialistically frustrated people I have less sympathy for - but still I have some, because we are all works in progress. We must pray for all at whatever stage of spiritual growth to be more and more open to the work of the Holy Spirit and the teachings of the Church Jesus established.

Finally, we shouldn’t leave out the many ways NFP can benefit a woman’s health, possibly saving her life by allowing her to detect disease before it becomes impossible to cure.
 
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