Sometimes it seems like NFP is part of the problem

[maryjk]

There isn’t a lot of motivation to post “We are using NFP and it’s going well.”

what’s the point in that?

Having problems/finding solutions is part of the reason most people make a thread…

Good point. I have been using NFP for years. YEARS. And I have never had a problem. So why would I post about it?

Something that also isn’t talked about is that NFP can and is used to GET pregnant. Yes, women track their cycles to achieve pregnancy.

 

[quiet52]

Most couples who marry in the Catholic Church:

1. Have already been cohabiting, or at least have been sexually active, prior to marriage (and using artificial birth control).
2. They are not sufficiently educated about why the Church is against contraception.
3. They are not sufficiently educated about the harmful effects of contraception, including the fact that some contraceptives are also abortifacients.
4. They are not sufficiently (if at all) educated about Natural Family Planning. It is mentioned briefly during most Engaged Encounter weekends, but not truly taught.
5. Have a limited (if any) acceptance of the Church’s understanding of the two-fold purpose of the marital act (sex).

I don’t know about other dioceses, but my diocese does not offer specific education about NFP. A couple, who charges $135 for three nights spaced out over three months, occasionally offers their class to a parish. Another woman offers it in her home, but it’s word of mouth. Maybe other people in my diocese offer education, but the education is not sponsored or advertised by the diocese, for married or engaged couples, or anyone else.

And this is very wrong.

There is nothing in place (by the local Church) to counter what women / couples are told by their OB/gyns and other doctors, by Planned Parenthood, by families and friends, and by society at large. Since it is easy to conclude that the Church is not truly serious about her teaching about the sin of contraception, it’s not surprising to see most Catholic married couples contracepting during their fertile years. Why should married couples take the teachings seriously if they don’t understand it fully, if the clergy doesn’t understand it, and if the clergy is seemingly indifferent about it?

I have spoken with a few contracepting couples, who claim they have tried NFP but it “didn’t work” for them. With further questioning, I discovered they didn’t take the classes, and they were not diligent about following the methods. “It” didn’t work for them because they didn’t make it work for them.

The Church needs to teach. Priests won’t even talk about contraception from the pulpit. Each diocese, at minimum, should REQUIRE couples being married in the Church to attend, prior to their marriage, a series of classes which offer full education on NFP (which hopefully explains the dangers of and theological reasons against contraception). This education, like RCIA and other faith formation, should be provided at no cost to the participants. Engaged couples can opt to take an online course or to meet with private instructors. The diocese should advertise these classes throughout the parishes, so that married couples, anyone, Catholic and non-Catholic, can attend them.

 

[Megan7]

Exactly my thoughts when starting this thread! And more succinctly put. Good job.

About water pollution with the estrogen from birth control pills - livescience.com/20532-birth-control-water-pollution.html

Thanks for the thread & link. I agree with what you have posted.

I have to read your link, but I wonder if the excessive use of birth control pills,
which in turn causes water pollution. Too much estrogen going around, could
that be the cause we have seen an increase in same sex attraction? Now, every
time you turn around, you hear of someone with same sex attraction,
I think the excessive hormones we all consume are a health problem…

I think that between the water pollution, and hormones in our food,
we are all ingesting way too much estrogen…

So, bottom line, everything has consequences…

I believe our Lord knew what he was talking about, when he said, be fruitful & multiply!

God bless you.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Or at least the way it may be being presented to engaged couples in marriage prep programs.

When reading CAF threads by married couples, I am struck more and more by many threads that all go basically something like this:

1. • My husband/wife and I have been practicing NFP but now we’re expecting another child in only x number of years.
   • We don’t want to use contraception but we don’t know what to do OR we are considering using contraception even though we know it’s wrong
   • In short, we didn’t bargain for this!
   To which I’m tempted to say, yes, you did bargain for this when you got married. But I have sympathy for their distress, too, don’t get me wrong.
   
   I know it’s hard having several children close together. And very difficult if there are health concerns for mother or child, or serious financial concerns (not just “we won’t be able to afford that Lexus now” first-world problems).
   
   I’m almost wondering, though, if in marriage prep programs couples are being given the NFP instruction as “Catholic birth control” because the Church feels backed into a corner by couples who threaten to use contraception. And probably a lot of them go to marriage prep and roll their eyes at the NFP materials because they’ve already made up their minds that they will use artificial contraception no matter what.
   
   I propose the following - it’s going to sound crazy, but at least follow what I’m saying please, before dismissing it as absurd:
   • Give couples a brief overview of NFP and a contact for classes and let it be up to them to pursue if and when a genuine need arises.
   • Emphasize more that it should be used when needed and for serious reasons. This way it won’t be taken for granted as de rigeur, and then be a source of disappointment when it “fails” to function as “Catholic birth control” and a pregnancy occurs.
   • Without falling into the trap of saying that a couple must have a huge family, somehow get across the idea that God may have in mind a larger family than they think they want, and that if this is a dealbreaker, maybe they should take more time discerning whether to get married, or at least postpone getting married until they are sure they can be okay with this.
   Your thoughts?

1. 
   My first thought: I want to hit a “like” button.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I think we actually have to sell the bigger picture here. We make it hard for ourselves when we are trying to follow Catholic rules, but are unwittingly trapped by society’s measure of what makes happiness and success in life. It’s a huge leap of faith to recognise the impact of this duality and choose a counter cultural worldview altogether.

It’s an art to balance the plans you make for your own life, with the plans God has for you and it really requires wanting God’s way, trusting the Holy Spirits divine guidance through the Church and being open to the unexpected highs and lows that are inevitable in taking the narrow road to heaven. Otherwise we live a Catholic facade on an endless search for loopholes in the Catholic ‘rule book’ so we can still keep control of our own worldly plans.

It’s crazy because people have a deep longing to ‘get back to nature’ and work along with it because they know that by choosing selfish wants over natures health, impacts on the eco system in far reaching and devastating ways. Yet they are blind to the nature of their own bodies and the delicate relationship between moderating our selfish wants with respecting the natural cycles. They say they are prepared to sacrifice some measure industry and progress in order to respect the environment, but don’t think of affording that same respect to their own bodies.

There’s a long winded rant, but surely given the big picture, natural family planning in tune with the bodies cycle makes as much but even more sense than conforming societies wants and desires to the natural cycles of the environment?

Again, I want to hit a “like” button.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Most couples who marry in the Catholic Church:

1. Have already been cohabiting, or at least have been sexually active, prior to marriage (and using artificial birth control).
2. They are not sufficiently educated about why the Church is against contraception.
3. They are not sufficiently educated about the harmful effects of contraception, including the fact that some contraceptives are also abortifacients.
4. They are not sufficiently (if at all) educated about Natural Family Planning. It is mentioned briefly during most Engaged Encounter weekends, but not truly taught.
5. Have a limited (if any) acceptance of the Church’s understanding of the two-fold purpose of the marital act (sex).

I don’t know about other dioceses, but my diocese does not offer specific education about NFP. A couple, who charges $135 for three nights spaced out over three months, occasionally offers their class to a parish. Another woman offers it in her home, but it’s word of mouth. Maybe other people in my diocese offer education, but the education is not sponsored or advertised by the diocese, for married or engaged couples, or anyone else.

And this is very wrong.

There is nothing in place (by the local Church) to counter what women / couples are told by their OB/gyns and other doctors, by Planned Parenthood, by families and friends, and by society at large. Since it is easy to conclude that the Church is not truly serious about her teaching about the sin of contraception, it’s not surprising to see most Catholic married couples contracepting during their fertile years. Why should married couples take the teachings seriously if they don’t understand it fully, if the clergy doesn’t understand it, and if the clergy is seemingly indifferent about it?

I have spoken with a few contracepting couples, who claim they have tried NFP but it “didn’t work” for them. With further questioning, I discovered they didn’t take the classes, and they were not diligent about following the methods. “It” didn’t work for them because they didn’t make it work for them.

The Church needs to teach. Priests won’t even talk about contraception from the pulpit. Each diocese, at minimum, should REQUIRE couples being married in the Church to attend, prior to their marriage, a series of classes which offer full education on NFP (which hopefully explains the dangers of and theological reasons against contraception). This education, like RCIA and other faith formation, should be provided at no cost to the participants. Engaged couples can opt to take an online course or to meet with private instructors. The diocese should advertise these classes throughout the parishes, so that married couples, anyone, Catholic and non-Catholic, can attend them.

This is definitely food for thought. It’s not good when those who would be willing to learn NFP can’t afford it - although if they say they can’t and they can afford a wedding with all the trimmings, well . . . People tend to make time and money as best they can if something is truly important to them.

I do think your 5 numbered points are the starting place and I’m all for that. It probably varies so widely by diocese and parish. What I see a lot on these threads I’m thinking of is that the couple has had an opportunity to learn NFP, whether they paid for it or the Church did, yet at least some of them are approaching it with more of a contraceptive mentality than an openness to God’s will mentality. They are also prioritizing their material well-being and their control and planning of their lives and seeing having one more child than they “planned” as burdensome rather than a blessing.

 

[The_Bucket]

I don’t see why it should cost much of anything to learn NFP. Maybe a few bucks and a few hours of one’s time. Honestly, it should be an essential part of the family ministry of every diocese and every parish, and it’s not. Most people who are merely ignorant of the teaching would probably embrace it and perhaps a few who are hostile towards it would have their hearts converted if it were properly explained from both theological and scientific perspectives.

We spend too much time in this culture demanding that one either be “pro-religion” or “pro-science” and failing to see how they can and do work in concert. Solid fertility is not an illness or an abnormal condition and it should not be treated by modern medicine as such.

 

[Listener]

I know it’s hard to have several children. And if I remember it right, there are occasional NFP classes offered here in my Archdiocese. Maybe that could be held more often, or given to the couple during their engagement. But my biggest concern are those men who don’t care what day of the month it is. It’s like there are many of them out there (I’m not going to say all) who want sex full time. They really need to respect their wives and learn some self control.

I think you have stated the problem pretty well. It is the elephant in the room that never is discussed. It takes TWO to practice NFP. If this is the case, what are the woman’s choices?

1. Have 15 children she can’t support, after getting tired of her husband chasing her around the bedroom.
2. If she’s not capable of having 15 children, she might end up having a miscarriage every few months.
3. Get a divorce.
4. Go against Church teaching.

I think that the real problem with NFP is that it’s impossible for a woman to practice it all by herself. I don’t think I have ever seen this problem discussed on these forums.

 

[3DOCTORS]

So much of the worlds focus and resources are diverted in tackling these ‘genie out of the bottle’ problems and huge bodies of experts too scared or suppressed by the ‘rights’ movements to call a spade a spade. The hole in the ozone layer won’t be a worry if life at the ground level already poisoned.

Very true. :sad_yes:

PS. I like your little “I’m a girl” note. I should do that too. I’ve been mistaken for male a couple of times!

Sadly enough, does it seem like we are mistaken for men when we are capable of making logical and rational, intelligent arguments? Naaaaah! Surely that can’t be it! shaw:

There isn’t a lot of motivation to post **“We are using NFP and it’s going well.”

what’s the point in that?**

Having problems/finding solutions is part of the reason most people make a thread…

Very good point - and actually, I think it would be fantastic if some of the people who are having success with NFP posted about it to encourage those struggling! :newidea: I do think there’s some level of informal mentoring going on - the “PM me if you have questions” type of thing. But it would be cool if people did bring out the point more often that NFP is working for them. They wouldn’t have to get graphic about it, just talk about how they negotiate, or how their unexpected child is a blessing, etc.

Some people are using it for trying to conceive as well, as pointed out in this thread. That may not be what the “trying to avoid” people want to hear about, but it too is a positive thing. It would at least be encouraging to some couples struggling with that side of the coin.

 

[skippley]

For those truly interested in Catholic teaching regarding marriage and having children, download the NFP International manual, Natural Family Planning: The Complete Approach, at www.NFPandmore.org and learn Church teaching and why NFP is not Catholic birth control. A suggested download of $10 is suggested. For the truly poor, this book is free. Persons from over 115 countries have downloaded this manual. This website offers free charts and a very reasonable online home study course on its home page. Most couples can learn from the manual in its easy question-answer format and practice sections. In addition, ecological breastfeeding offers couples another option of choice and abstinence is not required with this natural method of child spacing. Eco-breastfeeding involves seven maternal behaviors that are associated with an extended amenorrhea. The current book to read on this topic is The Seven Standards of Ecological Breastfeeding: The Frequency Factor. This book is available at amazon, lulu.com, or Barnes and Noble.

 

[alicatswimstar]

“there’s some level of informal mentoring going on - the “PM me if you have questions” type of thing. But it would be cool if people did bring out the point more often that NFP is working for them. They wouldn’t have to get graphic about it, just talk about how they negotiate, or how their unexpected child is a blessing, etc.”

3 Doctors-I am going to go out on a limb, and I hope this isn’t over share. I don’t know how many people have had similar experiences, but here is a glimpse of our brief use of NFP thus far.

I guess my husband and I are an example of “NFP is working” people. We are new in this department-we got married 8.18.2012. NFP was part of our marriage prep class, and we opted to take the full 6-8 week Creighton course. NFP knowledge was pushed buy our parish. I feel like I have a MA in mucus and am now working on my PHD-and I find it empowering. Plus, I have become a healthier person overall (it has affected MORE then just our sex life-I eat better and exercise more too!). Unfortunately, we are TTA until further notice due to life/health issues that arose early on- we talked to our priest and prayed as we discerned our use of NFP before we made our decision. We hope to have this change soon-but we take it month to month right now.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I liked how our teacher gave us the ‘big picture’, and did not hide the fact that avoiding sex is NOT a cake walk for everyone. She emphasized the importance of non-genital intimacy as of equal importance. It was taught from a health and “it is a beautiful way to space children” standpoint, and our teacher did not lesson the importance of the sacrifice and teamwork NFP takes. It would be hard without my committed husband-I do the checks, he charts, and we make choices together. THAT IMHO made all the difference in our practice of NFP. What is hilarious to me is the couple times I thought we were pregnant he seemed to ‘know’ I was not-in some ways, he trusts and knows the system better then me . And I trust my observations and the information I give him at the end of each day. And ultimately it is up to God; as we joke, “God has an interesting sense of humor”.

FWIW: At this early stage in our marriage, we have noticed that stress, tiredness, and outside factors are the things that ‘hurt our sex life’, not the ‘constraints’ of TTA with NFP. My DH and I have less sex when we are under certain types of stress (at least, that’s how our libido is working out). Different strokes for different folks, but that is our situation.

my 2 cents as a new-ish wife. I figure once we enter the ‘with kids’ stage things will change.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

I think you have stated the problem pretty well. It is the elephant in the room that never is discussed. It takes TWO to practice NFP. If this is the case, what are the woman’s choices?

1. Have 15 children she can’t support, after getting tired of her husband chasing her around the bedroom.
2. If she’s not capable of having 15 children, she might end up having a miscarriage every few months.
3. Get a divorce.
4. Go against Church teaching.

I think that the real problem with NFP is that it’s impossible for a woman to practice it all by herself. I don’t think I have ever seen this problem discussed on these forums.

Are 1 and 2 really that common, though? Men that have prayerfully discerned with their wife, and truly believe that they have serious reasons to avoid, and don’t want to go against the teachings, but push to have sex anyways during fertile times?
It seems like the ones who want to have sex any time are pushing for ABC, and this isn’t limited to men only…

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

My first thought: I want to hit a “like” button.

Haha, yeah

 

[maryjk]

Are 1 and 2 really that common, though? Men that have prayerfully discerned with their wife, and truly believe that they have serious reasons to avoid, and don’t want to go against the teachings, but push to have sex anyways during fertile times?
It seems like the ones who want to have sex any time are pushing for ABC, and this isn’t limited to men only…

I wondered about that as well.

As someone with more than one serious reason to avoid, I couldn’t imagine my husband chasing me around the bedroom. Even figuratively.

Now, if he weren’t convinced that we needed to avoid, I could imagine him “convincing me” that we should throw caution to the wind.

 

[pentecostbaby]

Here’s the real problem. People don’t generally want less kids. People want less stress, be in monetary or emotional or physical. They can’t afford more kids (or think they can’t). They can’t stretch themselves thinner. They can’t suffer from more sleep deprivation. Perhaps, like me, they get hyperemesis and can’t spend three months in bed.
We need better NFP help, yes. But we really and truly need community.
We are not designed to raise children in a bubble of a two parent household with no help. We need extended family and friends. And we don’t have them the way we used to. We are stressed because we are trying to do too much. We don’t have help. We often don’t have family or close friends. 24/7 parenting with no help is HARD. And until a few decades ago, it wasn’t like that.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

Here’s the real problem. People don’t generally want less kids. People want less stress, be in monetary or emotional or physical. They can’t afford more kids (or think they can’t). They can’t stretch themselves thinner. They can’t suffer from more sleep deprivation. Perhaps, like me, they get hyperemesis and can’t spend three months in bed.
We need better NFP help, yes. But we really and truly need community.
We are not designed to raise children in a bubble of a two parent household with no help. We need extended family and friends. And we don’t have them the way we used to. We are stressed because we are trying to do too much. We don’t have help. We often don’t have family or close friends. 24/7 parenting with no help is HARD. And until a few decades ago, it wasn’t like that.

THIS!!!

I’m glad you posted this b/c it’s something that I’ve come to realize as of late. Extended family is a huge help and when it’s not there, well…it really is enough to make people go crazy!

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

We are not designed to raise children in a bubble of a two parent household with no help. We need extended family and friends. And we don’t have them the way we used to. We are stressed because we are trying to do too much. We don’t have help. We often don’t have family or close friends. 24/7 parenting with no help is HARD. And until a few decades ago, it wasn’t like that.

Exactly. I don’t think that the trend of bigger families will return as long as we live the way we do. Last year my husband had a breakdown due to stress, and our 2 little ones were a part of that. We just couldn’t handle it, completely alone without any help. The fact that we live abroad doesn’t really change much because back home we were in a very similar position. And we only have 2 kids. I simply don’t know how people do it unless they have someone help them on a daily basis.

 

[LongingSoul]

“there’s some level of informal mentoring going on - the “PM me if you have questions” type of thing. But it would be cool if people did bring out the point more often that NFP is working for them. They wouldn’t have to get graphic about it, just talk about how they negotiate, or how their unexpected child is a blessing, etc.”

3 Doctors-I am going to go out on a limb, and I hope this isn’t over share. I don’t know how many people have had similar experiences, but here is a glimpse of our brief use of NFP thus far.

I guess my husband and I are an example of “NFP is working” people. We are new in this department-we got married 8.18.2012. NFP was part of our marriage prep class, and we opted to take the full 6-8 week Creighton course. NFP knowledge was pushed buy our parish. I feel like I have a MA in mucus and am now working on my PHD-and I find it empowering. Plus, I have become a healthier person overall (it has affected MORE then just our sex life-I eat better and exercise more too!). Unfortunately, we are TTA until further notice due to life/health issues that arose early on- we talked to our priest and prayed as we discerned our use of NFP before we made our decision. We hope to have this change soon-but we take it month to month right now.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I liked how our teacher gave us the ‘big picture’, and did not hide the fact that avoiding sex is NOT a cake walk for everyone. She emphasized the importance of non-genital intimacy as of equal importance. It was taught from a health and “it is a beautiful way to space children” standpoint, and our teacher did not lesson the importance of the sacrifice and teamwork NFP takes. It would be hard without my committed husband-I do the checks, he charts, and we make choices together. THAT IMHO made all the difference in our practice of NFP. What is hilarious to me is the couple times I thought we were pregnant he seemed to ‘know’ I was not-in some ways, he trusts and knows the system better then me . And I trust my observations and the information I give him at the end of each day. And ultimately it is up to God; as we joke, “God has an interesting sense of humor”.

FWIW: At this early stage in our marriage, we have noticed that stress, tiredness, and outside factors are the things that ‘hurt our sex life’, not the ‘constraints’ of TTA with NFP. My DH and I have less sex when we are under certain types of stress (at least, that’s how our libido is working out). Different strokes for different folks, but that is our situation.

my 2 cents as a new-ish wife. I figure once we enter the ‘with kids’ stage things will change.

It is funny how guys can get so interested in body temps and mucus signs when it means something important to them.

I’ve always used NFP for the 25 years of marriage. I feel lucky that my H didn’t have any resentments or frustrations around the times of abstinence. It just is what it is for him.

It is really important to realise that you need to avoid the types of affection and intimacy that set the ‘train in motion’ and mean having to pull it screeching back into the station to avoid the temptations to resort to unchaste things.

It’s equally important to develop an intimacy that meets each others need to feel loved without sex being involved. In my experience with others who I’ve journeyed with in their marital troubles, this is a bit of a lost art, as with ABC, sex is always the end all of intimate affection.

I wouldn’t want to go any other road than NFP and I’m very grateful to have had the incentive (Catholic teaching) to go with it right from the beginning.

 

[JackieMom]

Exactly. I don’t think that the trend of bigger families will return as long as we live the way we do. Last year my husband had a breakdown due to stress, and our 2 little ones were a part of that. We just couldn’t handle it, completely alone without any help. The fact that we live abroad doesn’t really change much because back home we were in a very similar position. And we only have 2 kids. I simply don’t know how people do it unless they have someone help them on a daily basis.

I told my husband (semi jokingly, because I have other reasons to avoid too) that we could consider a sixth when he makes enough money to hire daily help. I don’t mind taking care of the kids - but the cleaning, laundry, cooking, shopping…

Our parish has no mention of NFP in their premarital classes. None. We were never asked or told about it at our seminar, or in our meetings with the deacon who married us. There are no NFP teachers in our entire county that are currently active. It’s taken so non-seriously by the parish that it’s no wonder everyone is using contraception.

 

[pentecostbaby]

Exactly. I don’t think that the trend of bigger families will return as long as we live the way we do. Last year my husband had a breakdown due to stress, and our 2 little ones were a part of that. We just couldn’t handle it, completely alone without any help. The fact that we live abroad doesn’t really change much because back home we were in a very similar position. And we only have 2 kids. I simply don’t know how people do it unless they have someone help them on a daily basis.

I’m pregnant right now, and was bedridden for a month and a half. I still can’t do much. My husband is having a hard hard time with two tiny children and zero help (he had to cook, clean, do all the childcare and teach at the university). I cannot do this to him or my boys again. I flat-out can’t. We’d love to have more but the stress is too great. We’re going to adopt. But we are looking at a lifetime of avoiding.