Sometimes it seems like NFP is part of the problem

[lifeisbeautiful]

I grew up around families where 5+ children was pretty much the norm among practicing Catholic families that were in our community, receiving formation with us (I’m in my early 30’s). That is still the case for this community of practicing Catholics. The smaller families are smaller because either they did not start practicing their faith until later in life, they had issues that either merited NFP, one of the spouses is not a practicing Catholic, or they had fertility issues. Families from all sorts of social backgrounds and all sorts of economic situations open to having “larger than normal” families. I just don’t agree with the argument that having larger than average families is so impossible nowadays. I believe that being around other large families, or families supportive of large families/with the generous spirit towards children, is a huge source of support for a large family.

Don’t get me wrong, of course some people have reasons to avoid and will end up with smaller families, I am definitely not addressing anyone on here, but in general, I do think we need to listen to one of the first things Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI said when he became Pope, that we need to be open to more children!

 

[LongingSoul]

… But we are looking at a lifetime of avoiding.

Not really a ‘lifetime’. Maybe half the life of the marriage because menopause comes up on you before you know it. And in a solid marriage, it’s the dawn of a new and freer time in that side of married life. The hard part does go by more quickly than you think it will!

 

[3DOCTORS]

“there’s some level of informal mentoring going on - the “PM me if you have questions” type of thing. But it would be cool if people did bring out the point more often that NFP is working for them. They wouldn’t have to get graphic about it, just talk about how they negotiate, or how their unexpected child is a blessing, etc.”

3 Doctors-I am going to go out on a limb, and I hope this isn’t over share. I don’t know how many people have had similar experiences, but here is a glimpse of our brief use of NFP thus far.

I guess my husband and I are an example of “NFP is working” people. We are new in this department-we got married 8.18.2012. NFP was part of our marriage prep class, and we opted to take the full 6-8 week Creighton course. NFP knowledge was pushed buy our parish. I feel like I have a MA in mucus and am now working on my PHD-and I find it empowering. Plus, I have become a healthier person overall (it has affected MORE then just our sex life-I eat better and exercise more too!). Unfortunately, we are TTA until further notice due to life/health issues that arose early on- we talked to our priest and prayed as we discerned our use of NFP before we made our decision. We hope to have this change soon-but we take it month to month right now.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I liked how our teacher gave us the ‘big picture’, and did not hide the fact that avoiding sex is NOT a cake walk for everyone. She emphasized the importance of non-genital intimacy as of equal importance. It was taught from a health and “it is a beautiful way to space children” standpoint, and our teacher did not lesson the importance of the sacrifice and teamwork NFP takes. It would be hard without my committed husband-I do the checks, he charts, and we make choices together. THAT IMHO made all the difference in our practice of NFP. What is hilarious to me is the couple times I thought we were pregnant he seemed to ‘know’ I was not-in some ways, he trusts and knows the system better then me . And I trust my observations and the information I give him at the end of each day. And ultimately it is up to God; as we joke, “God has an interesting sense of humor”.

FWIW: At this early stage in our marriage, we have noticed that stress, tiredness, and outside factors are the things that ‘hurt our sex life’, not the ‘constraints’ of TTA with NFP. My DH and I have less sex when we are under certain types of stress (at least, that’s how our libido is working out). Different strokes for different folks, but that is our situation.

my 2 cents as a new-ish wife. I figure once we enter the ‘with kids’ stage things will change.

You were really blessed by having both good instruction and encouragement, and your own openness to God’s grace. Have you and your husband ever considered becoming speakers or instructors or mentors to others about the NFP experience? I bet you’d be great at it!

 

[3DOCTORS]

THIS!!!

I’m glad you posted this b/c it’s something that I’ve come to realize as of late. Extended family is a huge help and when it’s not there, well…it really is enough to make people go crazy!

I agree. :yup: People get upset with some of the implications of the Hillary Clinton “It takes a village to raise a child” statement (and I’m no fan of Hillary), but I do believe there is a positive way that phrase can be taken. If extended families and neighbors helped each other out, and if nuclear families struggling in isolation from one another weren’t the norm, I think families and children would ultimately benefit.

Sadly, though, we’ve gone so far down the isolation road, and with all the challenges to the traditional family and to Judeo-Christian morality currently going on, it’d be really hard to turn back. Quite frankly, there would be some individuals in the “village” whose influences over my children (if I had children) I would want to limit. :sad_yes:

Still, it’s a good idea and there might be some small ways to implement it. We should brainstorm about what those might be.

 

[KellyPalmer]

I agree. :yup: People get upset with some of the implications of the Hillary Clinton “It takes a village to raise a child” statement (and I’m no fan of Hillary), but I do believe there is a positive way that phrase can be taken. If extended families and neighbors helped each other out, and if nuclear families struggling in isolation from one another weren’t the norm, I think families and children would ultimately benefit.

Sadly, though, we’ve gone so far down the isolation road, and with all the challenges to the traditional family and to Judeo-Christian morality currently going on, it’d be really hard to turn back. Quite frankly, there would be some individuals in the “village” whose influences over my children (if I had children) I would want to limit. :sad_yes:

Still, it’s a good idea and there might be some small ways to implement it. We should brainstorm about what those might be.

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Sadly, though, we’ve gone so far down the isolation road, and with all the challenges to the traditional family and to Judeo-Christian morality currently going on, it’d be really hard to turn back. Quite frankly, there would be some individuals in the “village” whose influences over my children (if I had children) I would want to limit. :sad_yes:

I completely agree.

 

[quiet52]

I don’t see why it should cost much of anything to learn NFP. Maybe a few bucks and a few hours of one’s time. Honestly,** it should be an essential part of the family ministry of every diocese and every parish, and it’s not.** Most people who are merely ignorant of the teaching would probably embrace it and perhaps a few who are hostile towards it would have their hearts converted if it were properly explained from both theological and scientific perspectives.

We spend too much time in this culture demanding that one either be “pro-religion” or “pro-science” and failing to see how they can and do work in concert. Solid fertility is not an illness or an abnormal condition and it should not be treated by modern medicine as such.

If only priests and bishops would understand, embrace, proclaim, and act on what you have written!

It shouldn’t be like a “user’s fee.” Tourists wanting to utilize a national park pay to get in. Whether a parish or a diocese funds NFP education, it should be funded, because this education should be considered as essential (not optional) information for Catholic couples.

How can the lay faithful be expected to embrace the Church’s teachings and to responsibly take advantage of the NFP methods, when this whole issue is something 99% of our priests and deacons don’t seem to care about? Some priests are still telling couples in the confessional that contraception is a matter of personal conscience (without providing an explanation of what conscience formation truly is). And too many priests are sadly frank about their rejections of the Church’s teachings. In my opinion, with regard to the Church’s teachings on marriage and sexuality issues, the Catholic Church is failing her lay people because of the lack of will and leadership among her clergy.

It seems that our clergy either don’t know, or does not care, that most contraceptives prescribed by doctors include abortifacients. So, by not passing on the full deposit of faith (which includes the teachings on these issues), they are not only failing to save souls, but they are complicit in the deaths of the unborn. We have yielded to the Culture of Death rather than fight against it.

So how do we help our bishops understand these things and change “the system” (since they are responsible for teaching, guiding and monitoring our priests)?

I guess my husband and I are an example of “NFP is working” people.
. . . NFP knowledge was pushed buy our parish. I feel like I have a MA in mucus and am now working on my PHD-and I find it empowering. Plus, I have become a healthier person overall (it has affected MORE then just our sex life-I eat better and exercise more too!). Unfortunately, we are TTA until further notice due to life/health issues that arose early on- we talked to our priest and prayed as we discerned our use of NFP before we made our decision. We hope to have this change soon-but we take it month to month right now.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I liked how our teacher gave us the ‘big picture’, and did not hide the fact that avoiding sex is NOT a cake walk for everyone. She emphasized the importance of non-genital intimacy as of equal importance. It was taught from a health and “it is a beautiful way to space children” standpoint, and our teacher did not lesson the importance of the sacrifice and teamwork NFP takes. . . .

“alicatswimstar” it was a DELIGHT to read your posting!

I want to thank you and your husband for taking this part of the faith seriously and with enthusiasm.

Can you please pass on some THANKS to your pastor and your NFP leaders, for their steadfast and faithful leadership?

I wish your parish / diocese can reach out to other dioceses!

. . . . Our parish has no mention of NFP in their premarital classes. None. We were never asked or told about it at our seminar, or in our meetings with the deacon who married us. There are no NFP teachers in our entire county that are currently active. It’s taken so non-seriously by the parish that it’s no wonder everyone is using contraception.

“JackieMom” would you consider asking your pastor why this is so?

 

[quiet52]

I agree. :yup: People get upset with some of the implications of the Hillary Clinton “It takes a village to raise a child” statement (and I’m no fan of Hillary), but I do believe there is a positive way that phrase can be taken. If extended families and neighbors helped each other out, and if nuclear families struggling in isolation from one another weren’t the norm, I think families and children would ultimately benefit.

Sadly, though, we’ve gone so far down the isolation road, and with all the challenges to the traditional family and to Judeo-Christian morality currently going on, it’d be really hard to turn back. Quite frankly, there would be some individuals in the “village” whose influences over my children (if I had children) I would want to limit. :sad_yes:

Still, it’s a good idea and there might be some small ways to implement it. We should brainstorm about what those might be.

I am old enough to remember the days when “choice” was about women having the choice to either work outside of the home or to be a traditional stay-at-home mom. Neighbors knew and helped neighbors to a larger degree than they do now (at least what I have witnessed). Families had one TV and kids “back then” didn’t expect what modern kids seem to expect.

Grandmas and aunts were more available to help with the kids, too, because unlike now, they didn’t feel forced to work. Nowadays, either because of more failed marriages, more “never marrieds”, and/or the economy, many women cannot afford to retire at ages 60, 65, or even 70 – they are less available to help their relatives with the children.

But nowadays we do have well-researched and successful methods of natural family planning which weren’t available “back then.”

As for brainstorming, I have no specific ideas – I wish more priests would talk about these topics more, and empower their parishioners to brainstorm and implement ways to “live Catholic” together in this very harsh culture.

BTW, if Hillary has made that “it takes a village” statement, she was quoting another former first lady, Rosalyn Carter.

 

[JackieMom]

If only priests and bishops would understand, embrace, proclaim, and act on what you have written!

It shouldn’t be like a “user’s fee.” Tourists wanting to utilize a national park pay to get in. Whether a parish or a diocese funds NFP education, it should be funded, because this education should be considered as essential (not optional) information for Catholic couples.

How can the lay faithful be expected to embrace the Church’s teachings and to responsibly take advantage of the NFP methods, when this whole issue is something 99% of our priests and deacons don’t seem to care about? Some priests are still telling couples in the confessional that contraception is a matter of personal conscience (without providing an explanation of what conscience formation truly is). And too many priests are sadly frank about their rejections of the Church’s teachings. In my opinion, with regard to the Church’s teachings on marriage and sexuality issues, the Catholic Church is failing her lay people because of the lack of will and leadership among her clergy.

It seems that our clergy either don’t know, or does not care, that most contraceptives prescribed by doctors include abortifacients. So, by not passing on the full deposit of faith (which includes the teachings on these issues), they are not only failing to save souls, but they are complicit in the deaths of the unborn. We have yielded to the Culture of Death rather than fight against it.

So how do we help our bishops understand these things and change “the system” (since they are responsible for teaching, guiding and monitoring our priests)?

“alicatswimstar” it was a DELIGHT to read your posting!

I want to thank you and your husband for taking this part of the faith seriously and with enthusiasm.

Can you please pass on some THANKS to your pastor and your NFP leaders, for their steadfast and faithful leadership?

I wish your parish / diocese can reach out to other dioceses!

“JackieMom” would you consider asking your pastor why this is so?

I could try, but we don’t really have opportunities to talk with our pastor. Confessions are no-conversation and getting a private meeting is nearly unheard of unless you are planning to donate $20,000 for something (we have 11 deacons who handle pastoral matters.)

In truth the answer to this question is that our particular parishioners are not interested in this type of thing. It’s all about numbers at our parish, they’d never want to P.O. anyone and potentially lose the donations!

 

[mumstheword]

Another option, I believe, for natural family planning, is a computerised monitor which observes your cycles (via very accurate temperature recordings) and then calculates your fertile and non-fertile symptoms. Being a very forgetful, disorganised person, this particular has worked for me, for five years, until we felt the call to have another child (our sixth) - it still requires a period of abstinence. Yes, it does cost, but when you add up the cost of contraception over the years, (not to mention the spiritual cost) I believe it is good value.

 

[maryjk]

Sadly, though, we’ve gone so far down the isolation road, and with all the challenges to the traditional family and to Judeo-Christian morality currently going on, it’d be really hard to turn back. **Quite frankly, there would be some individuals in the “village” whose influences over my children (if I had children) I would want to limit. **:sad_yes:

Still, it’s a good idea and there might be some small ways to implement it. We should brainstorm about what those might be.

My husband has a saying on his wall.

“We home school, because we have seen the village. And we don’t want it raising our child.”

Although we may think we want help from the “village.”: We have to realize that there are factors that we would have to accept if we allowed “the village” int our home.

 

[The_Bucket]

I don’t know how much the fact that NFP flies so far under the radar has to do with priests outright rejecting the doctrine compared to simple fear. Fear that emphasizing this point will drive people away. Fear that bringing it up will pull their congregations out of true ignorance but they will then reject it and live in states of grave sin.

Or even fear that they will get it wrong because they think that they can’t really relate to couples since they live lives of celibacy. My pastor would not have these issues, but he’s a former head of the marriage and family ministry for the entire diocese. I imagine some less experienced priests would be hesitant to dive into these matters, especially since taking something the pill is permissible to treat actual medical conditions.

It’s a complicated topic and explaining the principle behind the Church’s teaching on contraception, THEN explaining double effect can be tough for a 5-10 minute homily.

I’m not arguing that priests need to proclaim the Church’s position on contraception every Sunday. I’m saying even one Sunday a year would be good enough. And that homily should be one in which the Church’s position is explained, not where there is any tone of condemnation.

A better option, in my book, is to have NFP be part of the family ministry. One parish in my area has on-site courses and it’s advertised every week in the bulletin. There must be real emphasis on it in every pre-Cana course. Couples need to understand what they’re doing when they get into marriage. What else should the Church teach? Seriously? How to get along with a spouse? Pretty sure that’s common sense.

Pre-cana should be focused on making Christ the center of the marriage in every respect. And what separates marriage from other relationships? Sex. Let’s just get down to brass tacks and note that the marital relationship is different from friendship, even close friendship, because of sex.

Whether it’s going to be embraced by the people is another matter. But priests need to take courage, step up to the plate and deliver the message. No one shies away from telling us that we need to give to the poor, why shy away from telling us that we need to give freely to our spouses in sex?

The brutal irony in my life, of course, is that I’m a faithful follower of NFP but I’m sure I don’t give enough of my treasure to the Church and to charity. Fear sometimes keeps people from embracing the Church’s teaching on sex, and sometimes it keeps them from embracing Her teaching on giving to the poor…

 

[Kelfa28]

My husband has a saying on his wall.

“We home school, because we have seen the village. And we don’t want it raising our child.”

Although we may think we want help from the “village.”: We have to realize that there are factors that we would have to accept if we allowed “the village” int our home.

THIS…times one thousand.

“It takes a village to raise a child” literally makes me cringe!

When that village believes that my children should be “protected” from parents like myself because I don’t believe in so-called “women’s rights” to abortion, contraception and the “freedom” of sex before marriage and co-habitation. That I’m a bigot for believing that marriage should be between a man and a woman and I’m not teaching my children tolerance and openness and a PC attitude toward life.

That I choose to raise my children in the “suffocating constraints” of Catholicism and I’m not giving my children a choice.

That I believe in the family unit and Jesus and God.

What happens when that believe system extends to my own family? It does! Not everyone lives in a wonderful little Catholic bubble with parents, siblings, aunts and uncles and in-laws.

When it comes to my family…my husband and I are IT! We are the only ones who have these conservative beliefs. Our parents are the result of the 60s and 70s. Our siblings are the products of these parents and our Grandparents are no longer alive.

I don’t want the village to come anywhere near my family…thank-you very much.

NFP is difficult for us in terms of resources. The nearest Catholic only OB-GYN is over an hour away.
We don’t have much by way of classes. Our priest did express an interest when a nurse offered to study the creighton method and teach it…this was a year ago and it hasn’t materialized yet.

As conservative as our parish is…no one talks about NFP. I’ve heard it mentioned once in a class given by a parishoner but it was more of a suggestion then doctrine.

I couldn’t stand the way it was brought up at our marriage prep classes. It was advertise as some wonderful, amazing practice that presented no difficulty and displayed all of those stats I’m already suspect to. Like the one about NFP couples less likely to divorce.

My husband bought the ease of it hook, line and sinker. I couldn’t go to a class so I did the at-home class by CCL.
I had to learn it after our first child was born which made it far more difficult. I’m blessed with easy to interpret cycles but it was still difficult.

My husband never picked up the book and was visibly turned off by anything that had to do with mucus interpretation.
He never looked at my charts and thought he could just ask when ever he wanted and I would say yes or no.

This practice frustrated me and, frankly, angered me. To the point where I just wanted to give it up and go back to ABC.

I sat him down and told him there was no way I was going to do this anymore…he needed to stop going around and bragging to people we use NFP. No, we don’t use NFP…I use NFP.

I told him to get over himself and read the stupid book…gross mucus and all…and learn the method.

I still don’t think he has read the book…but he has gotten better. He does look at my charts and asks questions about everything.
He started to figure out my cycle himself and stopped asking “how is NFP going…is tonight a good night?”

I thought NFP was going to be this wonderful…easy practice and it’s not. Even with regular cycles…it’s not easy.
It’s certainly a cross to bear and I will bear it…gladly.
I doubt we will be about to go beyond 3 kids for a multitude of reasons. I’m prepared for this and willing to try.

 

[Chantal25]

I don’t disagree with your post but i think now that we need as parent to educate our children in this matter at some point. The problem is at the source, the education of the children. As an adult, without question, something need to be done at the church level.

Not always, but it seems that the man seem to be the one to put pressure on woman about being in title to have intimacy with her and at time it is the other way around. Truly if we understand that sexuality is blessed in marriage to multiply. So unless you are willing to accept a pregnancy, you should choose abstinence but if you are ok if it happened then NFP would be acceptable because it isn’t guaranty.

I agree that if a couple would fully understand what marriage is all about, many would refrain to pursue this. It isn’t given to everyone to care for many children. It is without question a very challenging job if you have no support and especially with a special need child.

All the best!

 

[alicatswimstar]

quiet52-my Crieghton instructor has suggested I become in instructor…I have been praying about it. We just moved to an area of WY that has only STM and very few options, but a great love of TofB and NFP. My old parish was in the Sacramento Diocese, and the push for NFP in our area was a recent (and good!) development. Also I am a…4th, 10th(?) who knows generation NFP user, and my grandparents were STM NFP instructors. I knew my mom and dad let God do the planning, and my sisters and I (Poor dad, only girls, it’s just him and the dog) were ‘twinkles in their eyes’. I just didn’t know the logistics till I was older. My Aunts used STM or Billings-so I had this advantage of it being a part of life, of our family culture. That is Huge, I think…

Here in WY there is an even bigger grass roots push for NFP (at least in our parish) then where I just came from, which is nice.

To echo what others have said about lack of support for the ‘big family’ and the “it takes a village” but beware of certain villages thing…sigh the support issue is what freaks me out and I don’t HAVE kids yet. My family is “in a land Far Far Away”;I just left my Big Italian Catholic Family for my husband (job situation, rock and a hard place) and I am so blessed, but heck, my aunts all lived within two hours of us, I still used to hang out and have a beer with my cousins, support was ALL there! That support is now…far far away . I still get homesick for them, but Tim is my family now. He is great support, my earthly rock, but when kids come it will be a TRIP I am sure.

Flip side: we have landed in a ‘good village’-so I guess the game plan is to make roots in the village and make friends with people who you will help and they will help you in times of trouble…? That’s the only solution I can think of…

Perhaps when one has to move, you try to land in a good village…. Lord,keep our future kids in Your arms. We can’t do this alone!

 

[Am2010]

I do think that NFP is part of the problem. How many Catholic families in the last 20 years have more than 6 kids? NFP is promoted frequently, though not all the time, as a way to “space” kids. It has only been since the 1960’s that NFP has been mainstreamed. The Church has always taught that the purpose of marriage is FIRST to have kids in order to “populate” heaven, secondary is the couple. That’s why we make the vow of “for better or worse” because true love involves self sacrifice for the benefit of the spouse. Our duty as married couples, God willing, is to have children at the rate God desires. Abuse of NFP is not trusting God and doing what we think is best for our family.

I’m 40 and have 6 siblings. My mother and her best friend ( who had 6) were the largest families in the parish. Almost all of their friends had 2 children , a couple had 3 but no more than that( this was from 1970 to the 80’s)
These were people who were done having kids by age 30, so what did they do? If the wives had a c section she had her tubes tied but husbands having vasectomies was more popular. These people are some of the sweetest you’d ever meet. Never miss Mass, good to their communities and families. They are all in their 60’s now and still good friends. Only 2 couples practiced NFP. Oh but anecdotally the ones that are happily married are the ones who didn’t practice NFP . So NFP doesn’t always make all the couples closer/ happier etc. Not one divorce though amongst these 12 couples so that’s nice to see

 

[3DOCTORS]

There’s a lot to think about in these latest posts. Rather than add any extra spinoffs to ideas in the topics discussed, I see one overarching thing, and it is this:

**There needs to be feedback between those attempting to practice NFP for the right reasons and in the right way, and the mentors/instructors, who should be available to help counsel and encourage them through the rough spots and times of being tempted to give up on it or resent it. **

There should also be emphasis on what are the real reasons for it in the first place during pre-Cana, not just the “how-to” as if it’s Catholic birth control. :twocents:

It may already be being done, too, what I’m thinking of; I don’t know since I’m not married and I’m past childbearing.

Here’s the closest I’ve come to knowing what the “NFP experience” feels like from the inside:

1. 
   *]Reading about it. I have even looked through that big thick blue and green book - I was trying to find out clues about problems I was having in my own cycle, back before I had my hysterectomy, hoping maybe my condition could be identified.
   *]Hearing couples speak about it at Church. In my diocese, in more than one parish, they do this before or after Mass, by invitation of the pastor. I’m thankful to live in a diocese where there is a commitment to getting the word out. (We are a pretty orthodox diocese and have an abundance of vocations. Coincidence? I think not.)
   *]Reading the threads about it on CAF.
   
   So I don’t have the benefit of having been “in the trenches,” and I realize in one way that’s a disadvantage. I’m more like a journalist taking in what I see from several different vantage points and compiling them together.

 

[alicatswimstar]

3Doctors, I think you are right…It stinks when you move and have little access to the NFP you do, yet one advantage we have now (in comparison to the 70’s) are scanners and e-mail. That helps get feedback (I believe) but it doesn’t work for everyone. I personally prefer to sit and talk to someone one-on-one and show them my charts.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

“It takes a village to raise a child” literally makes me cringe!

When that village believes that my children should be “protected” from parents like myself because I don’t believe in so-called “women’s rights” to abortion, contraception and the “freedom” of sex before marriage and co-habitation. That I’m a bigot for believing that marriage should be between a man and a woman and I’m not teaching my children tolerance and openness and a PC attitude toward life.

What happens when that believe system extends to my own family? It does! Not everyone lives in a wonderful little Catholic bubble with parents, siblings, aunts and uncles and in-laws.

This. I want to keep the village out as much as I can. Of course, unless one lives in a Catholic comune it is not possible to keep the village at the safe distance. I have no idea on what to do. Plus my husband is not Catholic so I am in a super difficult situation. I rely on God to help me.

 

[thewanderer]

This. I want to keep the village out as much as I can. Of course, unless one lives in a Catholic comune it is not possible to keep the village at the safe distance. I have no idea on what to do. Plus my husband is not Catholic so I am in a super difficult situation. I rely on God to help me.

I think you are misunderstanding the point. The point isn’t to say that we need to let our kids be raised by people with opposing values to our own. Rather, it is to say that raising a family is really too much work for just two people. While two people should obviously hold the responsibility for raising the children, they need help. They need people they can rely on, who share their values (or will at the very least respect their values and the fact that that is how they are raising their kids) who can step in and help the parents out as needed. Its not saying that we need to hand our kids over to a secular state, but rather just that parents need help. they need support. They can’t do it on their own, or, at least, it is extremely difficult to manage on ones own. I don’t think anybody can really dispute that.