Son being dragged into it

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holyrood

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My 15 year old son has recently started to make the claim that ‘the women’ in the family do nothing or ‘have it easy.’ He and his brothers are expected to do a few chores a day–a grand total of maybe 20 to 30 minutes help, the five days a week they’re here. They have plenty of time on computer games, movies, with friends, riding bikes, etc.

My adult daughter and I both work full time in addition to all the other ‘details’ of life–paying bills, making dinner, grocery shopping, etc. etc.

DS is claiming his father pays ‘too much’ in child support and then I expect him to buy all their clothes, too. I pointed out that I do buy them clothes, that I have paid 100% of major bills (like orthodontics) that he was supposed to pay the majority of, that the child support covers only part of the mortgage and there’s a great deal more to be paid each month.

My biggest concern–which I also pointed out to him–is that he can’t possibly know these things unless his father is telling him and dragging him into it–and that nobody should be putting him in the middle of these things or working him against one parent or the other. I held my tongue on the things his father did that all but forced me to file for divorce just to keep a roof over their heads at all, but told him there are things I haven’t told him, that he’s making judgments without knowing the full truth.

I’m especially concerned that he’s going to go full throttle into the idea that men are ‘always’ victimized in life, in divorce, and start becoming one of these men who thinks poorly of all women as a result.

He’s getting this from his father, that he’s a victim in all this, when in truth, he spent the entire marriage lying, cheating, gaslighting, gathering credit cards behind my back and running up huge bills (which I’d already paid off twice), and more. The marriage was annulled on the evidence of all these things.

But I have been unwilling to tell the kids all the things their father did. And even if I do, he’ll just say I’m lying. He has spent his life looking people in the eye and lying and the kids have been primed for years to see him as a poor long-suffering victim.

I’m frustrated beyond belief and feel entirely stuck. I talked to him about what it actually costs to keep a home and car and full refrigerator for this many kids. But I doubt it really made much impact. 😦
 
If you have a written budget, or keep copies of receipts and bills, it might be a good idea to let them do some of the talking for you. Those numbers don’t lie, and it could be really beneficial for your son’s financial knowledge. When I was his age, I only knew the cost of CDs, movie tickets, the occasional meal out, and impractical shoes. 😉 I wasn’t a dumb kid, but I really didn’t understand about utility bills or just how much it cost to feed a family, even shopping at discount stores.

I think you did great with the other stuff. It isn’t fair for your ex to trash you like that, and while teens can be susceptible to that kind of manipulation I have noticed that when they get older they frequently do realize they were getting played. He may not have reacted well, but your conversation may end up having a big impression on him.
 
I’d be tempted, in your place, to say the following to your son:

“There are two sides to every story, and until you demonstrate that you are willing to listen to both with an open mind, then you can keep your mouth shut on the subject and do as you’re told around here.”

Then I’d be on the phone to his dad and tell him that unless he wants to be in court to limit his contact with the kids even further, he’ll stop dragging the kids into adult business.

But then, I’ve been accused in the past of being a ‘rhymes-with-rich’… 😃
 
Indigo_Cardinal said:
I’d be tempted, in your place, to say the following to your son:

“There are two sides to every story, and until you demonstrate that you are willing to listen to both with an open mind, then you can keep your mouth shut on the subject and do as you’re told around here.”

Then I’d be on the phone to his dad and tell him that unless he wants to be in court to limit his contact with the kids even further, he’ll stop dragging the kids into adult business.

But then, I’ve been accused in the past of being a ‘rhymes-with-rich’… 😃
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I like the way you think! 👍
 
+1

I would simply ask him what makes him think he can speak to me that way?

Dad has it so much easier.
Go live there.
 
My sister’s ex was a piece of work. To her credit, she never spoke badly of him to her children, believing they would figure it out on their own.

Guess what? They did. He treated them poorly and put his interests before them. It didn’t end well for him. He is not a part of their lives now that they are all grown up. And she never had to say a thing about him.
 
holyrood said:
…

I’m especially concerned that he’s going to go full throttle into the idea that men are ‘always’ victimized in life, in divorce, and start becoming one of these men who thinks poorly of all women as a result.

… 😦
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This seems to be the main concern despite all the other things. I’d suggest you ask him how he feels and have a conversation about such things, using evidence to try and coax them out their ideas. Show him evidence.

The second thing I would ask is that you make sure you haven’t branded someone as something… You too can be part of the problem. Maybe your child is seeing something you or we here don’t and so is siding with the father? Please take that in. Not accusing, but sometimes people miss out on their own contribution to the problem.

**There is no reaction for something that is not happening. ** Its got a cause. Seek kindly to find out to address it, with love. It can’t be love when its seeking its own, or in attack mode.
 
You son’s father is feeding him a bunch of BS, which is unfortunately very common with divorced parents. There are two issues as I see it. Your son in concerned about the financial welfare of his father because he has been inappropriately pulling him into his business.

The first thing I would do is contact him and tell him in no uncertain terms that if that doesn’t stop there will be legal consequences. Many courts and judges are fully aware of parental alienation and take a very dim view of parents who attempt it on innocent kids.

Secondly, I would resist the temptation to tell your son that his father is a whining crybaby who made his own choices and needs to man up and deal with the consequences, even if it’s true. Try and deal with it as if you were still married. What would you say if your son was concerned about dad not having enough money? I would actually acknowledge that his financial situation IS hard, and that is in part to the separation. Functioning as two households as compared to one is very expensive. Acknowledge his concern for his father as legitimate. I also second showing him an example of the budget you have to work with. Let the numbers speak for themselves. He’s actually at the perfect age for that talk anyway, if not a little late.

If he’s concerned about the cost of clothing specifically, look up a couple school outfits online and add up the cost. Brainstorm with him about ways to reduce costs. Acknowledge that financial difficulties are a lifetime struggle, but you will work together as a family to make sure you don’t go hungry or naked. In this way, you can lead him to discover for himself that finances are tight for both you and your ex and he will know that the next time his dad tries to run his mouth.

As far as the chores issue, I think every kid things his brothers or sisters have less chores than they do. Even though it’s complete nonsense, give him the opportunity to state his case. Some things you can do to make him feel he has more control over the situation would be to let him choose or switch chores if he just genuinely hates the specific chores he has, but wouldn’t mind other options. For example, if he thinks his sister has it easy because she has to make dinner and he has to do the dishes, let him switch. Either he will learn to cook or he’ll realize that dishes aren’t so bad after all. You could also consider giving him more control of when the chores get done. (obviously, this only works for things that don’t have to be done every day.) If the chores he objects to are his own self-care (cleaning his room, doing his laundry, etc) you can let him live with the consequences of not doing it. You can also point out that if you are busy doing a, b, and c task, you aren’t available to drive him to basketball or whatever thing he wants you to do.
 
pianistclare said:
Go live there.
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Please, DON’T actually say that. I know it’s tempting, but just don’t. Kids suffering after a divorce often fear that their parents really will unload them in just that way. And why not? Marriage is supposed to be forever and it is the foundation of their family. If that bond can be broken, why not the parent-child bond? Even with older kids, who understand on a cognitive level that parents don’t separate from their kids the way they do from each other, still carry that as an unspoken fear.
 
holyrood said:
My 15 year old son has recently started to make the claim that ‘the women’ in the family do nothing or ‘have it easy.’ He and his brothers are expected to do a few chores a day–a grand total of maybe 20 to 30 minutes help, the five days a week they’re here. They have plenty of time on computer games, movies, with friends, riding bikes, etc.

My adult daughter and I both work full time in addition to all the other ‘details’ of life–paying bills, making dinner, grocery shopping, etc. etc.

DS is claiming his father pays ‘too much’ in child support and then I expect him to buy all their clothes, too. I pointed out that I do buy them clothes, that I have paid 100% of major bills (like orthodontics) that he was supposed to pay the majority of, that the child support covers only part of the mortgage and there’s a great deal more to be paid each month.

My biggest concern–which I also pointed out to him–is that he can’t possibly know these things unless his father is telling him and dragging him into it–and that nobody should be putting him in the middle of these things or working him against one parent or the other. I held my tongue on the things his father did that all but forced me to file for divorce just to keep a roof over their heads at all, but told him there are things I haven’t told him, that he’s making judgments without knowing the full truth.

I’m especially concerned that he’s going to go full throttle into the idea that men are ‘always’ victimized in life, in divorce, and start becoming one of these men who thinks poorly of all women as a result.

He’s getting this from his father, that he’s a victim in all this, when in truth, he spent the entire marriage lying, cheating, gaslighting, gathering credit cards behind my back and running up huge bills (which I’d already paid off twice), and more. The marriage was annulled on the evidence of all these things.

But I have been unwilling to tell the kids all the things their father did. And even if I do, he’ll just say I’m lying. He has spent his life looking people in the eye and lying and the kids have been primed for years to see him as a poor long-suffering victim.

I’m frustrated beyond belief and feel entirely stuck. I talked to him about what it actually costs to keep a home and car and full refrigerator for this many kids. But I doubt it really made much impact. 😦
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Have you explained to this child that the financial details of the divorce were worked out between the parties, approved by the court and by the way ARE NONE OF HIS BUSINESS and you do not have to justify the household budget? If he thinks you do nothing, then for his next 5 day visit, do nothing. Let him prepare his own meals, do his own laundry, iron his own shirts, clean his own bathroom…etc. Take a few days off, you could use a break!
 
Catholic1954 said:
Have you explained to this child that the financial details of the divorce were worked out between the parties, approved by the court and by the way ARE NONE OF HIS BUSINESS and you do not have to justify the household budget? If he thinks you do nothing, then for his next 5 day visit, do nothing. Let him prepare his own meals, do his own laundry, iron his own shirts, clean his own bathroom…etc. Take a few days off, you could use a break!
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I don’t see how this approach furthers the goals of teaching him that managing money isn’t easy and often requires sacrifice and struggle, disabusing him of the notion that women are money-sucking dead weight on a family, and assuring him that he can come to his mother with his unrealistic teenager concerns.
 
Allegra said:
Please, DON’T actually say that. I know it’s tempting, but just don’t. Kids suffering after a divorce often fear that their parents really will unload them in just that way. And why not? Marriage is supposed to be forever and it is the foundation of their family. If that bond can be broken, why not the parent-child bond? Even with older kids, who understand on a cognitive level that parents don’t separate from their kids the way they do from each other, still carry that as an unspoken fear.
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Sigh.
the POINT IS…the kid knows where he is better off already.
He’s not going to leave
Hes just making his mom’s life hard because he can.
 
holyrood said:
My biggest concern–which I also pointed out to him–is that he can’t possibly know these things unless his father is telling him and dragging him into it–and that nobody should be putting him in the middle of these things or working him against one parent or the other.
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umm… with all due respect there is no way to be 100% sure of this unless you witness every conversation he has with his dad. He could have heard this from a friend and is just testing you to see your reaction. Or, he just might know your buttons and is at that age he likes to push them.

So, I would NOT ever mention the financial arragement with your ex. It is time he learns privacy and he can’t know other people’s fnances. However, I do agree with showing him budgeting skills. For example, look with him on-line at house prices and show him how mortgage payments are calculated so he gets an idea of what things cost.
holyrood said:
I held my tongue on the things his father did that all but forced me to file for divorce just to keep a roof over their heads
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Bless you for this. If ever he finds out on his own what his dad did, he will REALLY admire you. And even if he doesn’t at leat you are setting a good example of not bad mouthing
holyrood said:
but told him there are things I haven’t told him, that he’s making judgments without knowing the full truth.
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I can see the temptation in saying this but… it will just raise his curiosity more. Again, time to teach him to mind his own business.
holyrood said:
I’m especially concerned that he’s going to go full throttle into the idea that men are ‘always’ victimized in life, in divorce, and start becoming one of these men who thinks poorly of all women as a result.
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Yes that is a concern but… you can’t choose your kid’s attitude once they grow up
holyrood said:
I’m frustrated beyond belief and feel entirely stuck. I talked to him about what it actually costs to keep a home and car and full refrigerator for this many kids. But I doubt it really made much impact. 😦
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I doubt it makes that much impact on any kid since they often seem to think they parents have a money tree hidden somewhere

I do also agree that he should have more say in the type of chores he does and control over the timing of the chores

Teenagers are hard in the best of times. And as much as you don’t want to make your son feel rejected, he is very soon going to be at that age where living under your roof is no longer a right but a priviledge and he needs to learn to tow the line

Angie
 
pianistclare said:
Sigh.
the POINT IS…the kid knows where he is better off already.
He’s not going to leave
Hes just making his mom’s life hard because he can.
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That may be what your point is, but what a kid hears is, “If you don’t want to cooperate, you can get out too.” It’s a very hurtful thing to hear.
 
Allegra said:
That may be what your point is, but what a kid hears is, “If you don’t want to cooperate, you can get out too.” It’s a very hurtful thing to hear.
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Ok, I’m going to say it again. I don’t advocate that she say that to him. That’s my OPINION

:rolleyes:
 
Keep praying. Your instinct of not wanting to trash your husband is correct. It takes two sides to make a war. Look at Tibet. Nobody in the world thinks the Dalai Lama is a bad guy. Be strengthened by the Beatitudes. Your children will always seek out the one who is honest, peaceful, and charitable. The only thing I would do is invest in setting up a punching bag in the basement!
 
pianistclare said:
Ok, I’m going to say it again. I don’t advocate that she say that to him. That’s my OPINION

:rolleyes:
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I didn’t read the first time where you said not to say it. I read the post where you said that she should say that. I read the second post where you said what your point was. I didn’t see where you said not to say it. I’m glad that you don’t advocate saying that though. I’m not sure what the eye-rolling is about. This is kind of important.
 
Sorry you’re going through this - one thing to remember is that teens often vent at the parent they feel “safe” with in these situations. In other words, while a deep down part of him would like to tell his dad to quit whining and man up, he can’t possibly say that (or anything against his dad) for fear of losing him. On the other hand, he feels secure enough in your love that he knows he can say just about anything and you’re not going to leave him.

So even if he’s upset with his dad (and probably is for his dad dragging him into it), it’s much “safer” to attack you then go against him.

Hope that made sense.

Much hugs, love and prayers! Teens are incredibly hard.

CJ
 
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