Sorry Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, Jesus is God.

[Nicea325]

I think you are confusing some of our teachings with the JWs. Arianism was wrong. Jesus is divine. We do not believe that Jesus and the Father are of the same substance as it is understood from the Nicene creed. Jesus was the divine Son of God but we believe the Father and the Son are separate beings. They were clearly separate when Jesus prayed to His Father who is in heaven. (John 17:3) We do believe they had the same authority and unity of purpose which was derived from the Father and which makes them one God.

The creed makes it very clear Jesus and the Father are consubtantial. Meaning what? Of the SAME SUBSTANCE!

Should I post the Nicene Creed?

Again…explain to me how the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity incarnated as 100% human and yet not have the same substance as the Father?

Do you have the same subtance from your parents?

 

[Nicea325]

No we are not Trinitarians as defined in the Nicene creed. The LDS believe the Father and Son have physical bodys and that man was literally made in the “image and likeness of God” (Gen 1:26) and that Jesus is the only **begotten **Son of the Father. (1 John 4:9)

Key word: BEGOTTEN.

So how can Mormons DENY the obvious?

Apparently Mormonism re-defines words to suit their doctrines.

 

[Callvenus]

I think the problem is that Mormons do not believe in the Nicene creed because they believe that the bishops present during that meeting were apostates and didnt have any authority. They believe that the council was set up for political purposes. Elder Jeffrey Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles gave a talk in LDS General Conference several years ago blasting the Nicene Creed.

By rejecting the Nicene Creed, they have effectively made themselves polytheists and therefore are in violation of all scriptures.

Key word: BEGOTTEN.

So how can Mormons DENY the obvious?

Apparently Mormonism re-defines words to suit their doctrines.

 

[Nicea325]

I think the problem is that Mormons do not believe in the Nicene creed because they believe that the bishops present during that meeting were apostates and didnt have any authority. They believe that the council was set up for political purposes. Elder Jeffrey Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles gave a talk in LDS General Conference several years ago blasting the Nicene Creed.

By rejecting the Nicene Creed, they have effectively made themselves polytheists and therefore are in violation of all scriptures.

Problem with their Apostasty theory is the fact Mormons have no historical evidence of an even ever happening.

 

[garyo49]

We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost.- Joseph Smith

We worship God the Eternal Father and pray to Him in the name of Jesus Christ. When Jesus prayed to His Father who was in heaven Jesus called the Father “the only true God.” (John 17:3) We believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God deriving authority from the father to follow the plan of the Father. We believe they are of one authority and purpose but not “of the same substance.”

When Jesus was mortal and I suppose you think He was because He had to work his way to salvation and become a god per J. Smiths little statement “We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible” Didn’t Smith read his own Book of Mormon? It says God was God from all eternity to all eternity and unchanging.

Do you believe He sinned? I can’t believe you can believe otherwise. You Mormons believe that your god, and I suppose you mean Jesus also was a man and became god because he paid his tithing, was married in the temple for eternity, obeyed the word of wisdom and didn’t drink wine until He was incarnate at least, then He later changed His mind and gave Joe Smith a revelation forbidding the consumption of wine. D and C 89. Go figure. Anyway, does the Mormon Church believe He sinned?

 

[garyo49]

Problem with their Apostasty theory is the fact Mormons have no historical evidence of an even ever happening.

Jesus told the apostles that He would be with them all days even until the consummation of the world. Mt. 28:20. He said heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words never will. Luke 21:33. He said that where two or three are gathered in His name, He will be among them. Mt 18:20. The Mormon Church believes that there are three Nephites from the B of M that never died and are roaming the earth still and also that St John never died and is still on the earth. That means there were always four righteous roaming the earth and obviously our Lord dwelt among them.

To believe Mormonism you have to believe when you read, Mt. 28:20, 21:33, and 18:20 that Jesus lied, was mistaken, or somehow just couldn’t pull it off. As for me I believe Jesus words and believe there was no “complete apostasy”.

As an aside one day I showed my wife, a true believing Mormon, Jesus words from the Bible and a conflicting statement by Joseph Smith on those same words by Jesus and she went with Joseph Smith. It was almost more than I could take. Sad, yes?

 

[garyo49]

No we are not Trinitarians as defined in the Nicene creed. The LDS believe the Father and Son have physical bodys and that man was literally made in the “image and likeness of God” (Gen 1:26) and that Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father. (1 John 4:9)

Do you read your bible or are you to busy studying J. Smith and the church presidents? The bible, the B of M, and old Joe’s Lectures on Faith all say that God is spirit. The Lectures on Faith were the doctrine part of D and C until the early 20 th century when the Church realized that old Joe’s Lectures said that “God is spirit” and were removed because they conflicted with doctrine although they were Mormon canon.

 

[mtolympus]

Do you read your bible or are you to busy studying J. Smith and the church presidents?

In case you didn’t recognize my references, all but one were from the Bible.

The bible, the B of M, and old Joe’s Lectures on Faith all say that God is spirit. The Lectures on Faith were the doctrine part of D and C until the early 20 th century when the Church realized that old Joe’s Lectures said that “God is spirit” and were removed because they conflicted with doctrine although they were Mormon canon.

Any one who believes that Jesus is God knows, from the Bible, that God has a body of flesh and bones. (Luke 24:36-39) and of course a spirit also (Luke 23:46). This is because man was created in the “image and likeness” of God. (Gen. 1:26) God has a spirit and a physical body and since man was created in the likeness of God, man also has a spirit and a physical body. The Bible even tells us what “image and likeness” means. Man was made to be like God in the same way that Seth was made in the “likeness, after (the) image” of his father Adam.

“This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth.” (Gen. 5:1-3) emphasis added

Yes, God is a spirit. However, when we read the Bible we will recognize that the following scripture was not written to describe God, but to tell us how we should worship him.

“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:23-24)

Our worship of the Father should be on a spiritual level, given in spirit and in truth. The statement that God is a Spirit is true. However, it does not mean that God is a non-corporeal being any more than it means that we must leave our bodies to worship him.

 

[garyo49]

In case you didn’t recognize my references, all but one were from the Bible.

Any one who believes that Jesus is God knows, from the Bible, that God has a body of flesh and bones. (Luke 24:36-39) and of course a spirit also (Luke 23:46). This is because man was created in the “image and likeness” of God. (Gen. 1:26) God has a spirit and a physical body and since man was created in the likeness of God, man also has a spirit and a physical body. The Bible even tells us what “image and likeness” means. Man was made to be like God in the same way that Seth was made in the “likeness, after (the) image” of his father Adam.

“This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth.” (Gen. 5:1-3) emphasis added

Yes, God is a spirit. However, when we read the Bible we will recognize that the following scripture was not written to describe God, but to tell us how we should worship him.

“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:23-24)

Our worship of the Father should be on a spiritual level, given in spirit and in truth. The statement that God is a Spirit is true. However, it does not mean that God is a non-corporeal being any more than it means that we must leave our bodies to worship him.

God is A spirit - This is the second reason why men should worship him in spirit and in truth. By this is meant that God is without a body; that he is not material or composed of parts; that he is invisible, in every place, pure and holy. This is one of the first truths of religion, and one of the sublimest ever presented to the mind of man. The Bible declares that he is a pure spirit. As he is such a spirit, he dwells not in temples made with hands Acts 7:48, neither is worshipped with men’s hands as though he needed anything, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things, Acts 17:25. A pure, a holy, a spiritual worship, therefore, is such as he seeks - the offering of the soul rather than the formal offering of the body - the homage of the heart rather than that of the lips.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Do you have the same subtance from your parents?

Perhaps it would be helpful to define what “substance” is referring to. By asking “Do you have the same substance from your parents” (and earlier “Does an infant not have the same substance of his father?”), I assume you are making an analogy of the consubstantiality of the Father and the Son (and the Holy Ghost) with the purported consubstantiality of someone with their parents (please correct me if I am wrong). If so, then Latter-day Saints would agree with that. The question then becomes, how is monotheism maintained with such a definition (or, how is this more monotheistic than the Latter-day Saint view (note that I am not necessarily saying that the LDS view is monotheistic)? To explain my point further, if the oneness of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (distinct Persons who are not each other) is one of substance, and the analogy is that an infant and father have the same substance, then the infant and father are one…what? Thanks.

 

[garyo49]

Mount Olympus

This is from the 1835 “Lectures on Faith”, prepared and approved by J. Smith.

“… the Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power, possessing all perfection and fulness, the Son, … a personage of tabernacle …” (Doctrine and Covenants, 1835 Edition, page 53)

Like I told you this passage was the main reason the Mormons removed the Lectures from the D and C, in the middle of the night, even though the Lectures were approved canon.

 

[truthseeker32]

Although I am no longer Mormon I find some of these arguments presented against them here rather weak.

Arguing that the LDS faith is flawed because it contradicts the Nicene Creed or another traditional Christian doctrine isn’t going to compel a Mormon because they don’t believe in the statement. It would be like a Muslim trying to convince a Catholic that their religion is flawed because the Koran says so.

To effectively argue against the LDS faith I recommend considering the following:

1. When did the apostasy happen?
2. If God is a physical being how did he create the universe? If he didn’t create the universe how does the LDS faith account for the metaphysical forms in the universe (physics, mathematics)? How do things move (see Aristotle)?
3. Why did God wait almost 1800 years to restore his church?
4. Where is the DNA and Archaeological evidnce of the Book of Mormon?
5. Why aren’t you a member of the RLDS church? After all, they have typically been on the better side of history. They didn’t support slavery, polygamy, or prohibiting blacks from holding the priesthood. It was also the faith that Joseph Smith’s first wife Emma (although she didn’t officially join) and sons were a part of.
6. If Joseph Smith claims to have seen God in 1820, why then did he pray asking if there was a Supreme being three years later?
7. Why wasn’t the story of the first vision talked about until years after it happened?

“James B. Allen, who served as assistant church historian, frankly admitted that the story of the first vision “was not given general circulation in the 1830’s.” (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1966, p.33). Dr. Allen makes some startling concessions in this article. He admits, for instance, that “none of the available contemporary writings about Joseph Smith in the 1830’s, none of the publications of the Church in that decade, and no contemporary journal or correspondence yet discovered mentions the story of the first vision…” Dr. Allen goes on to state that in the 1830’s “the general membership of the Church knew little, if anything, about it.” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1966, pages 29-45.”

1. Finally, Is it possible that Joseph Smith could have written the Book of Mormon without divine aid? This site makes many arguments for the affirmative:

mormonthink.com/josephweb.htm#sgnificant

 

[Pepband_Mom]

We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost.- Joseph Smith

We worship God the Eternal Father and pray to Him in the name of Jesus Christ. When Jesus prayed to His Father who was in heaven Jesus called the Father “the only true God.” (John 17:3) We believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God deriving authority from the father to follow the plan of the Father. We believe they are of one authority and purpose but not “of the same substance.”

HOW do you square that with the Schema of the Jews?
See Deut 6:4:
“Hear, O Israel, the Lord thy God is One.” The Jews KNEW there was only ONE GOD. The word in Hebrew is " 'echad" meaning ONE consisting of many parts (a bunch of grapes has many grapes but one bunch & I rather think J. Smith & B. Young & assoc. were rather ignorant of Biblical scholarship) instead of “'yachid” meaning a single, solitary one only. So God is ONE God of more than ONE “part”: hence, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
Gen 1:26
“Let us make man in our image”
Gen 11:17
“Let us go down” to the Tower of Babel

One in authority and purpose does not make an individual “God” - is this out of desire of the persons you call Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit?

By your thinking, I can be a “god” because I wanna be god???

MONOtheism what this God is - Not 3 Gods = TRItheism: worship of 3 (separate) Gods. Remember the Commandment: Thou shalt have NO other Gods besides Me! IMPOSSIBLE to worship 2 other Gods other than the Father; Jesus is not God because of any desire he may have had & the job he did; it’s the other way around: He was the Logos, the Word of God in the beginning (JOHN 1:1) and He is God the Son, the spotless, pure Lamb, the Messiah, the Way, the Truth & the Life who came down to save us; His nature is the same as is God the Father’s nature by which I notice he says “I changeth not” & “I AM who Am” which by the way discounts your belief God the Father evolved.

 

[mtolympus]

HOW do you square that with the Schema of the Jews?
See Deut 6:4:
“Hear, O Israel, the Lord thy God is One.” The Jews KNEW there was only ONE GOD. The word in Hebrew is " 'echad" meaning ONE consisting of many parts (a bunch of grapes has many grapes but one bunch & I rather think J. Smith & B. Young & assoc. were rather ignorant of Biblical scholarship) instead of “'yachid” meaning a single, solitary one only. So God is ONE God of more than ONE “part”: hence, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
Gen 1:26
“Let us make man in our image”
Gen 11:17
“Let us go down” to the Tower of Babel

I think I have answered this question in this thread. My answers are to tell what I believe and support it from the Bible. You are welcome to your beliefs. However, your example dosn’t make sense to me. If one bunch of three grapes is like unto one God, then each grape by itself is only a grape. In this example Jesus Christ by himself is not God. Or, if you insist that Jesus is God then you believe there are three Gods.

One in authority and purpose does not make an individual “God” - is this out of desire of the persons you call Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit?

We pray to God the Father as the only true God (John 17:3) in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. The Father gave authority to Jesus, (John 5:26-27) and the world was made by Jesus Christ. (John 1:10) Jesus is the mediator between God the Father and man. (1 Tim 2:5-6). The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Ghost is God. Yes, that makes three Gods. However, because the authority came from the Father to fill the Father’s plan, these three are one God. “Which Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen” (D&C 20:28)

By your thinking, I can be a “god” because I wanna be god???

Not by my thinking!

MONOtheism what this God is - Not 3 Gods = TRItheism: worship of 3 (separate) Gods. Remember the Commandment: Thou shalt have NO other Gods besides Me! IMPOSSIBLE to worship 2 other Gods other than the Father; Jesus is not God because of any desire he may have had & the job he did; it’s the other way around: He was the Logos, the Word of God in the beginning (JOHN 1:1) and He is God the Son, the spotless, pure Lamb, the Messiah, the Way, the Truth & the Life who came down to save us; His nature is the same as is God the Father’s nature by which I notice he says “I changeth not” & “I AM who Am” which by the way discounts your belief God the Father evolved.

According to my explanation above there are three members of the Godhead, however, we worship one God, not three.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I think I have answered this question in this thread. My answers are to tell what I believe and support it from the Bible. You are welcome to your beliefs. However, your example dosn’t make sense to me. If one bunch of three grapes is like unto one God, then each grape by itself is only a grape. In this example Jesus Christ by himself is not God. Or, if you insist that Jesus is God then you believe there are three Gods.

We pray to God the Father as the only true God (John 17:3) in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. The Father gave authority to Jesus, (John 5:26-27) and the world was made by Jesus Christ. (John 1:10) Jesus is the mediator between God the Father and man. (1 Tim 2:5-6). The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Ghost is God. Yes, that makes three Gods. However, because the authority came from the Father to fill the Father’s plan, these three are one God. “Which Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen” (D&C 20:28)

Not by my thinking!

According to my explanation above there are three members of the Godhead, however, we worship one God, not three.

What is the name of the God you worship?

 

[mtolympus]

What is the name of the God you worship?

We call the God we worship “Our Father in Heaven,” and we call our Lord “Jesus Christ.” Jesus Christ is our Savior, our mediator and our advocate with the Father. (1 John 2:1-2)

 

[RebeccaJ]

We call the God we worship “Our Father in Heaven,” and we call our Lord “Jesus Christ.” Jesus Christ is our Savior, our mediator and our advocate with the Father. (1 John 2:1-2)

Thanks.

Why not worship Jesus Christ?

 

[mtolympus]

Thanks.

Why not worship Jesus Christ?

We do worship Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Jesus Christ was sent to us by the Father. (John 17:3) Jesus is our brother. He has a separate role in our worship of our Father. Jesus is our advocate (1 John 2:1-2) and the only one who can bring us back to the Father.

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17) emphasis added

We call the God we worship, “Our Father in Heaven.”

 

[anon70069040]

I myself still can’t figure out how any faith can claim to believe in the Bible, have the Gospel of St. John in there, and not believe Christ is God.

How about because its a book?

Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m awaiting my letter from Hogwarts.

 

[Battleaxe]

If one bunch of three grapes is like unto one God, then each grape by itself is only a grape.

Thats dead true when were talking about the physical/material realm, but with God, were talking about spirit ONLY. The Divine Essence is spirit "only" ie no material makeup, and therefore doesnt occupy space.
The same applies to the angels, good and fallen, and to the immortal human soul.

In this example Jesus Christ by himself is not God. Or, if you insist that Jesus is God then you believe there are three Gods.

No.
The Father is spirit and knows HImself totally in eternity. He possesses the totality of the Godhead. Everything that the Father is is contained in His Self-knowledge. The Father`s Self-knowledge is the Son. Because of the last sentence plus 1, the Son possesses the totality of the Godhead. The Son is generated by the Father in eternity.

Theres total, eternal Self-giving Love from the Father to the Son; and theres total, eternal Self-giving Love from the Son to the Father. Everything that the Father is and everything that the Son is is in that Love. That Love is the Holy Spirit; and because of the preceding sentence, He possesses the totality of the Godhead.

Keep in mind that the physical/material is NOT involved. We`re not trying to say that three individuals occupy the same physical space…or anything remotely like that. The Incarnation is a separate topic.
No one Person (also called “Principle”) can exist without the other Two, and no Two can exist without the other One.

There`s one divine Will. Total unity.

The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Ghost is God. Yes, that makes three Gods.

No. See above.

This will help to explain the Mystery of the Blessed Trinity:
www.katapi.org.uk/TandS/Contents.html

***Its hard-going, but, as far as it goes, its the Truth; and it`s the Truth that matters. ***
Saint Thomas Aquinas went well into it.

The fact that the Mystery can never be fully understood doesn`t give anyone the right to water it down to make his concept of God more palatable. That does violence to the Truth, and leads deeper into heresy.

“Which ***Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen” (D&C 20:28) ***

They can`t be infinite and eternal AND created.

According to my explanation above there are three members of the Godhead, however,*** we worship one God, not three.***

Ditto. But your beliefs are based on a wrong foundation.