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mtolympus
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So, would you trust an answer more if there were no biblical references? I’m really not trying to prove anything. I am only trying to not be vague by giving biblical support to what I believe.
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Stephen168
New member
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jrtrent
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Bruce McConkie’s speech at BYU in 1982 gives a pretty direct answer:
"We worship the Father and him only and no one else.
We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense—the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator."
But that does not mean that Mormons do not honor and revere Jesus Christ:
"Our relationship with the Son is one of brother or sister in the premortal life and one of being led to the Father by him while in this mortal sphere. He is the Lord Jehovah who championed our cause before the foundations of the earth were laid. He is the God of Israel, the promised Messiah, and the Redeemer of the world.
By faith we are adopted into his family and become his children. We take upon ourselves his name, keep his commandments, and rejoice in the cleansing power of his blood. Salvation comes by him. From Creation’s dawn, as long as eternity endures, there neither has been nor will be another act of such transcendent power and import as his atoning sacrifice.
We do not have a fraction of the power we need to properly praise his holy name and ascribe unto him the honor and power and might and glory and dominion that is his. He is our Lord, our God, and our King." speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=602
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Battleaxe
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All orthodox Catholics disagree with virtually everything you
ve said; but at least youve put it in more or less plain English, unlike your predecessor.Stephen:
Thanks for your answer. That explains a lot.
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ThatOrthodoxGuy
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Why do some consider Mormons christians?
It seems that everything they teach is contrary to Holy Scripture.:bible1:
It seems that everything they teach is contrary to Holy Scripture.:bible1:
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jrtrent
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I happen to be an ex-Mormon, now Anglican, but I believe them to be Christians. This little blurb by former President Hinckley seems to answer the question:
“We are Christians in a very real sense and that is coming to be more and more widely recognized. Once upon a time people everywhere said we are not Christians. They have come to recognize that we are, and that we have a very vital and dynamic religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ. We, of course, accept Jesus Christ as our Leader, our King, our Savior…the dominant figure in the history of the world, the only perfect Man who ever walked the earth, the living Son of the living God. He is our Savior and our Redeemer through whose atoning sacrifice has come the opportunity of eternal life. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints pray and worship in the name of Jesus Christ. He is the center of our faith and the head of our Church. The Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Jesus Christ and witnesses of His divinity, His life, and His Atonement.” mormon.org/faq/mormon-christian
Even if I no longer share many of their beliefs about Christ, I do not question their belief in and devotion to Christ.
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TexanKnight
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The problem people have with calling Mormons Christians is that they believe in a non-Biblical Christ.
As far as how they act and lead their lives, they are more “Christian” than a lot of Christians, but the fact they beleive in a different Christ is problematic for a lot of people.
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ThatOrthodoxGuy
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Battleaxe
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Pretty well true.Why do some consider Mormons christians?
Quoting a few words of the Bible out of context is misleading and does violence to Sacred Scripture. Just about anything can be “proved” with selective quotations. i even saw a website which claimed that abortion is OK
ed by Scripture. Tony, late of Arkansas, says polygamys OK. Ten years or more back, Rome issued a statement saying that LDS baptism is invalid. Eternal Progression/God once a man etc is just too far removed from orthodoxy.
jr;
Sorry: i mistook your current Faith.
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SteveVH
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Thanks.
“That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;” (Philippians 2:10)
Sure sounds like we’re suppose to worship Jesus to me.
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Zosimus41
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Douay Rheims Bible
John 20:28
Thomas answered, and said to him (Jesus): My Lord, and my God.
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Kc906
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I think people get too worked up on if some group is considered “christian” in their eyes. The only thing that matters are the words that were left behind, the Gospel.
Galatians 1:6-9 6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
The original apostles preached the truth of God and Jesus to new Church spreading across the world in the first century. Apostasy would come in take some followers away from the truth, but never was there a total apostasy revealed in scripture. Which means that if we use scripture, and look back at the early evidence (ECF’s,) then we can determine the truth of the Gospel.
Calling someone Christian/non-Christian is labeling a person/group (i’ve done this before of course,) but I think we are missing the bigger point. Does “this religion” believe in the same Jesus that was taught and believed by the early Church, now that is the question. To reject the true Christ and believe in a “perversion” of Christ will lead to us being accursed, as Paul states.
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EcceAgnusDei
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This statement by St. Paul is painted on the wall to the right of the altar in the Cathedral in Salt Lake City (but it is the DR translation, so it says in clear Catholic language: “let him be anathema”). It is big and easily read by anyone sitting in the pews. I imagine whichever Bishop decided to have it put there wanted his flock, who are in the middle of Mormondom, to realize that Mormons are following a perversion of the Gospel taught by “an angel.”
I am also happy that, despite the false spirit of ecumenism that sometimes sweeps through the Church, that quote still remains on the wall.
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mtolympus
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That is absolutly true.Thanks.
“That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;” (Philippians 2:10)
Sure sounds like we’re suppose to worship Jesus to me.
Bruce R. McConkie was trying to impress upon the BYU audience that we worship God the Eternal Father - who is “the only true God”. (John 17:3) He pointed out that we do not pray to Jesus Christ and we do not pray through Jesus Christ. We pray directly to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.
We worship Jesus Christ as Lord in a differnent sense than we worship the Father as Mckonkie said:
“We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense–the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us.” Bruce R. McConkie.
January 1, 2000 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints put out a official document called “The Living Christ, a Testimony of the Apostles.” that shows that we do worship Jesus Christ, though in a different sense than our worship of the Father:
“He will rule as King of Kings and reign as Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue shall speak in worship before Him. Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our hearts.” emphasis added
The Living Christ -The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Testimony of the Apostles
January 1, 2000
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RebeccaJ
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Bishop Joseph Glass.
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truthseeker32
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According to Mormon theology, why didn’t God the Father die for our us?
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Battleaxe
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My suspicion that “artful dodging” is an LDS tactic was confirmed by another poster (Stephen168), so that`s been settled.
No orthodox Christian has any intention of “debunk[ing] the scriptures”, only of exposing MISQUOTING. Sacred Scripture is the Word of God; and to see it misused is saddening/distressing.
Eh?
The answer would be a clear, concise, totally honest, unambigious, step-by-step LDS understanding of Who and What God is, His relationship with other divine beings, eternal progression, Kolob, the Son, Satan, spirit bodies, and other unique LDS beliefs. It wouldn
t require too many lines of print. Any LDS literature that ive seen has (with hindsight) been misleading. And i`ve already mentioned the evasive answer given by a door-knocking LDS missionary, about 10 years ago.As said already, even Satan quotes Scripture.
There`s a difference between using and MISusing.
Speaking of quoting Scripture:
Strong words, with the strongest stated twice.
Perfect fit.
Again, a perfect fit.
And it all hangs on the words of Joseph Smith and his successors!
It
s not "Protestant"...its downright ALIEN! A touch of New Age?By the way, did you follow the link provided in post #38 to read what the Catholic Church has to say about the Blessed Trinity? Forget the analogies of ice/water/steam, three-folds-in-a-cloak, shamrock etc. Or JW straw-man caricatures of what the Church teaches. Read The Real Thing.
To save searching:
www.katapi.org.uk/TandS/Contents.html
It
s good stuff: all the gooder for being true. Please do yourself a favour, and read it! im serious!
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SteveVH
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I think Stephen prayed directly to Jesus: “As they were stoning Stephen, he called out, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my Spirit’. Then he fell to his knees and cried out in a loud voice, ‘Lord, do no hold this sin against them’, and when he said this he fell asleep.”
(Acts 7:59-60)
This is why people, including myself, have such a difficult time understanding what in the heck it is that you actually believe. In order to make your point that you do worship Jesus Christ (at least in some sense) you quote McKonkie who immediately contradicts the point which you are trying to uphold by first stating very clearly that “We do not worship the Son” and then going on to explain that what a Mormon gives to Christ is really not worship at all.
And then, after all that, we have this:
I feel like I’m at a tennis match.
If I could ask a question. When God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses, who, exactly was it that gave the them; the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit. Because the first commandment says something along the lines of “I am the Lord, your God, you shall have no other Gods before me.” It goes on to read “Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:”.
So the way I see it is this. We can worship no one but God. Since you believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate divine beings, which one is the one spoken about in the Ten Commandments? Because you are not even to “serve” any other god. That means that if Jesus is not the one to be worshipped then he is not the one that we are to serve either. So, do you serve Jesus Christ?
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EcceAgnusDei
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This is a good point. Mormons believe that Jehovah = Jesus, so it would be Jesus who gave the commandments to Moses. This seems to throw a wrench in their three separate beings theology. They should be worshiping Jesus, not Eloheim (Heavenly Father).
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Nicea325
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Exactly!- Status