Sorry Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, Jesus is God.

[SteveVH]

I’ve tried to skim this whole thread as best as I can. It’s long and interesting. So my question is this, Did God the Father create the universe and our world and all of creation or did God the Son our Lord Jesus Christ at His Father’s command create the heavens?
I guess I thought it was God our Heavely Father’s word that set creation “in motion.”. Thanks

“In the beginning was the Word (Jesus) and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him and wtithout him nothing came to be.” (John 1:1-3)

 

[mtolympus]

What`s your interpretation of Galatians 1:6-9, then, based on the wording of the KJV?

Did you follow that link to see what we say about the Blessed Trinity?
Once again:
www.katapi.org.uk/TandS/Contents.html

Its not a matter of pestering you; its just a sincere wish that you know what we believe, rather than thinking that we follow some way-off “analogies” which aren`t analogies at all: eg ice/water/steam. Wrong! A cloak folded in three. Wrong! Etc. The visual imagination is actually a hindrance.

It`s Be-ing, Know-ing, Lov-ing.

The link sounds interesting but I generally don’t open or post links. I have more than enough to read and respond to from the posts.

Regarding Galations 1:8-9 “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach another gospel…” This is a little off topic for this thread but I did respond to this question on another thread: “Merged: Questions about Mormons.” Page 25 #364 and Page 27 #397. These can still be looked at by anyone who may be interested.

Thank you.

 

[Lochias]

The link sounds interesting but I generally don’t open or post links. I have more than enough to read and respond to from the posts.

 

[pismopal]

It can be interesting reading posts about LDS and the attempts to defend it by using SOME Bible verses which might seem to bring them within the orthodoxy of Christianity. The short cut to truth is very often overlooked…LDS theology collapses around Joseph Smith. The one issue that seems to help them is the fact that most of them actually believe their theology as it is delved out to them at their different levels within the organization. The natural reaction of many is that if they actually believe it there must be more to it than what I thought. The answer is yes…there is but it becomes even more unbelievable as it is revealed.

 

[Kc906]

From numerous commentaries, I think that the “other gospel” Paul is referring to here does not involve a debate on the nature of God and Christ, but that of considering “observance of the rites of the Mosaic system as necessary to salvation” (Barnes’ Notes on the Bible). Here’s Matthew Henry, as another example:

“Some would set up the works of the law in the place of Christ’s righteousness, and thus they corrupted Christianity. The apostle solemnly denounces, as accursed, every one who attempts to lay so false a foundation.”

That is the exact reason of why the holy scriptures were penned down. Many times they were addressing a specific issue occurring within a specific group of people (Corinthians, Galatians, etc) at a specific period in time. But, these verses are also relevant to humans today, and this particular message is a warning from St. Paul. My understanding is that there were other teachings from groups like the Gnostics and Arians (among others) throughout the first few centuries, which definitely are considered a “different gospel” than that which was taught by Jesus and his apostles.

The overall point for us is to recognize that there will be others that come into our lives that will teach a different Jesus, a different Gospel, and to be aware of this challenge to our faith.

The gospel is not defined in Galatians 1:6-9, but in verses like John 3:16, 1 Cor. 15:1-4, and 1 John 4:9-10. As a former Mormon, and based on quotes and links provided in this thread, I don’t believe that they deny the truth of any of those verses. They have a non-orthodox understanding of the nature of God, Christ, and man, but that does not mean they are teaching the “other gospel” referred to by Paul in Galatians 1:6-9.

I don’t have much firsthand knowledge on the LDS faith and what exactly they profess; i’ve read this entire thread and even then it’s a bit challenging Their non-orthodox interpretation of verses in scripture lead them to profess that the nature of God (who God really is) differently than their Orthodox brothers and sisters. I’m not exactly sure how stating that the Jesus is the eternal God who exists in a trinity is not a different gospel than that of the Jesus professed by LDS. A belief of total apostasy on earth, where the truth could not be found until it was given to a “prophet” in the 1800’s, is a different gospel than that preached by the Orthodox and Catholics of this world.

 

[Porknpie]

…LDS theology collapses around Joseph Smith.

And, belief of an apostasy in the church that never occured. No dates. No evidence.

And, belief in three North American civilizations that never existed. No trace. Genetics says American Indians are from Asia.

And, belief that the current church President is a prophet.

And, …

 

[mtolympus]

Here is one point I missed.

Jesus does more than just represent his Father. “…I am in the Father and the Father in me… the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me…” They cannot be separated because they are one God.

Yes, they are one God because they are united by the same divine authority and purpose. Jesus told the disciples how he was one with the Father, and said that they also would someday understand this kind of unity:

“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” (John 14:20)

 

[Battleaxe]

The link sounds interesting but I generally don’t open or post links. I have more than enough to read and respond to from the posts.

That link leads to a laymans-language explanation of the Essence/Nature of God, the very inner Life of God, the very inner Life of the Holy Trinity, the very Core of our Christian Faith. Its also a major step towards our belief that Jesus is fully God, as well as being fully Man. So its relevant to this thread. You want us to hear your side, but you wont listen to our side. Youre doing yourself a grave disservice. This reminds me of the previously mentioned LDS visit when the dominant one said: "Well come back on the condition that we talk and you listen." That`s a bit one-sided.

To repeat: do you want to go on believing that the Doctrine of the Blessed Trinity is based on analogies which are nothing of the sort? Or the straw-man arguments “in favour” of the Doctrine put forward by the JWs (among others)?
Then, of course, they knock em down. If the Doctrine were based on the weak and bizarre "foundations" that the JWs claim (or at least infer), theyd have every right to ridicule it. So would everyone else.

Sorry!!! But this is frustrating!!!

Afterthought:
Man is made in the image and likeness of God. It`s not vice versa.

Regarding Galations…

***These can still be looked at by anyone who may be interested. ***

Thats easy to say...but after going through ten pages, the peepers packed it in. :eek: In other words, how far back is it? A link? Is it so long that you cant put it in a few lines?
Forgot: it`s not relevant.

 

[Battleaxe]

Pick and choose.
Yes?
Yes.

 

[jrtrent]

I’m not exactly sure how stating that the Jesus is the eternal God who exists in a trinity is not a different gospel than that of the Jesus professed by LDS. A belief of total apostasy on earth, where the truth could not be found until it was given to a “prophet” in the 1800’s, is a different gospel than that preached by the Orthodox and Catholics of this world.

Perhaps I’m taking the word “gospel” in too narrow a sense. I’m thinking of it as expressed in the verses I referenced:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 Cor. 15:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

1 John 4:9-10
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

There are several groups of “Christians” that believe in an apostasy having occurred, and who don’t believe in the nature of the Godhead in exactly the same way as the Orthodox (or as the Roman Catholics, who deviate slightly from Orthodoxy themselves), yet who confidently proclaim that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God; who died for our sins, was buried, and rose again; and is the one we must believe in to gain eternal life. Mormons also believe these things.

I don’t have much firsthand knowledge on the LDS faith and what exactly they profess

The LDS.org website has an alphabetically-arranged, easy to navigate list of gospel topics under the “teachings” button on their homepage. Here’s a brief excerpt from one of their statements about Jesus Christ.

lds.org/topics/jesus-christ?lang=eng
Who is Jesus Christ?

Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God. He is our Redeemer. Each of these titles points to the truth that Jesus Christ is the only way by which we can return to live with our Heavenly Father.

Jesus suffered and was crucified for the sins of the world, giving each of God’s children the gift of repentance and forgiveness. Only by His mercy and grace can anyone be saved. His subsequent resurrection prepared the way for every person to overcome physical death as well. These events are called the Atonement. In short, Jesus Christ saves us from sin and death. For that, He is very literally our Savior and Redeemer.

 

[mtolympus]

That link leads to a laymans-language explanation of the Essence/Nature of God, the very inner Life of God, the very inner Life of the Holy Trinity, the very Core of our Christian Faith. Its also a major step towards our belief that Jesus is fully God, as well as being fully Man. So its relevant to this thread. You want us to hear your side, but you wont listen to our side. You`re doing yourself a grave disservice.

Sorry!!! But this is frustrating!!!

Afterthought:
Man is made in the image and likeness of God. It`s not vice versa.

Absolutely, glad we agree on something.

Thats easy to say...but after going through ten pages, the peepers packed it in. :eek: In other words, how far back is it? A link? Is it so long that you cant put it in a few lines?
Forgot: it`s not relevant.

I don’t make the forum rules but I try to follow them. If anyone really wants to see my comments on Galations 1:8-9 “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach another gospel…” it should not be that difficult. I have listed thread name, the page numbers and the post numbers.
“Merged: Questions about Mormonism.” Page 25 #364 and Page 27 #397.

 

[Battleaxe]

That insulting unholy trinity says a lot. So you want to remain ignorant of what we believe.
More dodging.

Absolutely, glad we agree on something.

The tragedy of it is that you know as well as i do that we dont. You must be laughing. It doesnt show your religion in a very good light.
Any observer of this thread wouldn`t be impressed.

I don’t make the forum rules but I try to follow them. [Legal loophole] If anyone really wants to see my comments on Galations 1:8-9 “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach another gospel…” it should not be that difficult. I have listed thread name, the page numbers and the post numbers.
“Merged: Questions about Mormonism.” Page 25 #364 and Page 27 #397.

You didn`t answer my request.
Dodging.

Again: remember that, as an LDS apologist, you`re in full view.

 

[Kc906]

Perhaps I’m taking the word “gospel” in too narrow a sense. I’m thinking of it as expressed in the verses I referenced:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 Cor. 15:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

1 John 4:9-10
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

It’s always a good idea to infer definitions from the context of scripture. I always believed the word gospel to mean “the teachings of Jesus and his apostles” and “the good news.”

2 Corinthians 11:3-4, 3 But I fear lest, as the serpent seduced Eve by his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted, and fall from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Christ, whom we have not preached; or if you receive another Spirit, whom you have not received; or another gospel which you have not received; you might well bear with him.

John 20:28-29, 28 Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God. 29 Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed.

The Gospel of John starts off stating: “the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Later on in John’s gospel the doubting Thomas doesn’t believe his brothers when they said that they had seen the risen Lord Jesus. When Jesus appeared and he felt his wounds from the cross, Thomas proclaimed Jesus to be “his Lord and his God,” which literally means the Lord of me and the God of me in greek. Based on the context of this verse, we can conclude that Thomas already knew that Jesus was his Lord and his God. He merely professed this already understood truth once he realized that Jesus had indeed risen from the dead and was standing in front of him.

In 2 Corinthians 11 we see Paul echoing very similar statements to those mentioned in Galatians 1:6-9, but he does go a little further this time. He does warn us of people coming preaching “a different Christ” along with those that will preach a different Gospel.

There are several groups of “Christians” that believe in an apostasy having occurred, and who don’t believe in the nature of the Godhead in exactly the same way as the Orthodox (or as the Roman Catholics, who deviate slightly from Orthodoxy themselves.)

You are correct, and Catholics believe in this very apostasy you are referring to. Satan deceives us, that is just what he does. Of course he is going to pull people away from the truth in any way he can, whenever he can (Acts 20:28.)

Yet who confidently proclaim that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God; who died for our sins, was buried, and rose again; and is the one we must believe in to gain eternal life. Mormons also believe these things.

Tieing this in with 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, what Paul and you are stating is the overall message of the Gospel. Is this the entirety of the Gospel that was taught from the time of Christ and on, no it is not.

 

[Battleaxe]

The LDS.org website has an alphabetically-arranged, easy to navigate list of gospel topics under the “teachings” button on their homepage. Here’s a brief excerpt from one of their statements about Jesus Christ.

It`s more a run down of His redeeming role than of Who He REALLY is.
Vague, like everything else it seems.

That insulting unholy trinity says a lot. So you don`t want to know what we believe.
Why not?
Dodging.

Absolutely, glad we agree on something.

The tragedy of it is that you know as well as i do that we dont. You must be laughing. Along with the rolling eyes, it doesnt show your religion in a very good light.
Observers wouldn`t be impressed.

I don’t make the forum rules but I try to follow them. [Legal loophole] If anyone really wants to see my comments on Galations 1:8-9 “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach another gospel…” it should not be that difficult. I have listed thread name, the page numbers and the post numbers.
“Merged: Questions about Mormonism.” Page 25 #364 and Page 27 #397.

You didn`t answer my request.
Dodging.

Again: Remember that, as an LDS apologist, you`re in full view.

 

[SteveVH]

Yes, they are one God because they are united by the same divine authority and purpose. Jesus told the disciples how he was one with the Father, and said that they also would someday understand this kind of unity:

“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” (John 14:20)

You and I could be one in purpose and authority. I’ve never understood what is suppose to be so profound about this statement as it relates to God.

And yes, someday we will understand this kind of unity when we are brought in to share in the very life of the Trinity.

 

[mtolympus]

Again: Remember that, as an LDS apologist, you`re in full view.

Thanks for the complement, but I can assure you I speak only for myself. My writting on this blog is personal and has no connection with the LDS Church or any of its organizations.

 

[Lochias]

Thanks for the complement, but I can assure you I speak only for myself. My writting on this blog is personal and has no connection with the LDS Church or any of its organizations.

Then absolutely nothing you say should be taken seriously in regards to the LDS church or the RCC. Gotcha.

Glad we cleared that up.

 

[Battleaxe]

---

Thanks for the complement, but I can assure you I speak only for myself. My writting on this blog is personal and has no connection with the LDS Church or any of its organizations.

Sounds like a legal disclaimer.
More dodging.
Nevertheless, your writings would reflect the overall LDS outlook.

Theres a human condition called "invincible ignorance". And: Theres a human condition called “vincible (wilful) ignorance”.

Lochias:
U posted while while i was fiddling.
You forgot the thumbsup!

 

[Lochias]

Lochias:
U posted while while i was fiddling.
You forgot the thumbsup!

 

[Agatha813]

I myself still can’t figure out how any faith can claim to believe in the Bible, have the Gospel of St. John in there, and not believe Christ is God.

Indeed. I can’t understand it either. It’s denying such a core concept, that’s not really that hard to understand.