Sorry Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, Jesus is God.

[iohannes13]

Seventeen years ago (theres a reason for remembering), i asked a JW at the front door how could they justify changing their beliefs. His answer was that theyre humble enough to admit that theyve held wrong beliefs. So much for Our Lords words that the Spirit of Truth would lead us into all truth. [John 16:13] Seems He got sidetracked or wasn`t paying attention a few times. But, the WBTS Holy Spirit is only an impersonal force, anyway.

im kicking myself for not keeping copies of JW literature dating back to the 1960s. :blush: Theres nothing like the original.

You can always show that qualities and powers attributed to God are also attributed to Jesus even if the direct references to His divinity have been eliminated.

Show them about their old teaching that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity (that is why their old literature is key). But if you have images from the internet, ask them to find archies from their libraries etc. etc. so that they can read for themselves. Newer or current members may have no idea that their doctrine changed. This opens up the question, which teaching is correct? Their old one (Jesus is God) or the new one (Jesus is St. Michael)? If the old one was wrong, ask them what happened to those JW’s that died believing that Jesus is God (and part of the Trinity). Following their current teachings, these individuals would not be saved. Or could they? And if they were not saved, what does that say about the JW teachings that led them? And if they were saved, then why won’t the millions of Trinitarians across the world and the centuries be saved?

 

[Kc906]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

EVERYTHING being spoken about has been covered for years…

searchforbibletruthsscriptureindex.blogspot.com/

You mean that the pre-incarnate Word is the “person” who actually spoke to Moses out of the flaming bush, who clearly is called Yahweh (Ex 3:1-6.) How this same pre-incarnate Word speaks as Yahweh when he states that every knee will bend to me, and we find out that every knee will be bending to Jesus (Isaiah 45:23-24 & Philippians 2:10.)

Just as Justin Martyr, who both the Watchtower and Catholic/Orthodox Christians acknowledge as an early Christian, stated:

“nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son, who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin, according to the counsel of the Father, for the salvation of those who believe on Him, He endured both to be set at nought and to suffer, that by dying and rising again He might conquer death. And that which was said out of the bush to Moses, “I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and the God of your fathers,” this signified that they, even though dead, are let in existence, and are men belonging to Christ Himself.” - First Apology ch. 63 ANTE Vol 1 p.352

You are correct Dave, this all has been covered for 2,000 years…

 

[SteveVH]

The problem with your argument is that you rely for your evidence on the ‘New Testament’ which is not the Word of God. It cannot be, as it has too many human errors. There is no error in the Torah and it is Torah which the NT (along with the Koran) claims its authority on. Who were the gospel writers? No one knows but they weren’t witnesses and didn’t even know Jesus Neither did Paul. Paul claims to be Jewish but the evidence of his own writing shows he was not. The biggest problem (again along with the Koran) is that the NT goes against the Torah, which is God’s DIRECT teaching to Moses and the whole Jewish nation, and witnessed by all of them. Who witnessed the ‘annunciation’? No one. The NT is full of errors, yet the CC claims it is ‘inerrant’ and inspired by God. The claim that Jsus is God directly contradicts the first commandent which says ‘you shall have NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME’. This means no mediator is required between the human person and God. Nor is there required a blood sacrifice for atonement as any proper reading of Hebrew Scripture will show. The ‘old testament’ is not old, It is the one and only eternal testament.

This is going to be good.

 

[Nicea325]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

EVERYTHING being spoken about has been covered for years…

searchforbibletruthsscriptureindex.blogspot.com/

Years? How many years is that in total? Less 200 years? JW’s preach very little of the Truth,but moreover, a perverted version of the Truth.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

TimothyH;9694886:

Sorry Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons, Jesus is God.
/QUOTE]

Amen Jesus is God and there’s no need to apologise.

A succinct & to the point response! Church has always said it, Early Church Fathers said it, Christianity (at least most mainline) still say it.

Bravo!

 

[Pepband_Mom]

WATCHTOWER → same Bible “Living English” states on page 1379:
John 8:58 "Jesus said to them “Verily, verily I tell you, before there was an Abraham I am.”

Contrasted to their “New World Translation”: “…I have been”. Been whaaaaaat…?

Hmmm which translation is correct?

What about the Bible with the incorrect translation - which one does WT deem accurate - they printed both? What to do with the inaccurate translation? IS IT GOD or a god? Polar opposite meanings folks; funny though they printed BOTH!!!

What to do with Jesus as “a god” - Remember thou shalt have no other gods besides me! Remember Deut 6:4 “Hear, O Israel, the Lord thy God is one”. Seems you can’t sneak Jesus into the equation as: “a god” !!!

See a dlilemma here? What do you tell the foot soldiers: WATCHTOWER PRINTED BOTH BIBLES & between the 2 = DIFFERENT MEANINGS.

Bottom line: Jesus is NOT confused nor the Church he founded, nor is Yahweh confused!

to our JW readers: Please address my post #165. Why the huge differences in WT published Bibles - Living English versus the New World Translation?

 

[Battleaxe]

to our JW readers: Please address my post #165. Why the huge differences in WT published Bibles - Living English versus the New World Translation?

Also to our JW readers: Why does your leadership lie about the Catholic Churchs teachings? The end doesnt justify the means.

If my impression of dishonesty is mistaken, please correct me.

 

[Micah11]

porknpie
Worst lie of JW belief is that only 144,000 will be saved. We can hope and pray that God will be merciful to them.

No, that’s not what they believe. The “little flock” of 144,000 consists of the anointed class.
Only the anointed class partakes of the bread and wine once a year, and will rule with Christ in heaven.

The “great crowd” is the rest of the JW’s who will live forever in a utopian paradise on earth.

 

[Porknpie]

No, that’s not what they believe. The “little flock” of 144,000 consists of the anointed class.
Only the anointed class partakes of the bread and wine once a year, and will rule with Christ in heaven.

The “great crowd” is the rest of the JW’s who will live forever in a utopian paradise on earth.

You are correct as they changed their doctrine on how many were to be saved when their numbers went over 144,000. Kind of a problem when you try to evangelize and then tell people at the same time that they won’t be saved. Their leaders changed the Word of Scripture too … and the four people who secretly did it weren’t even educated in biblical greek, aramaic or hebrew. I wonder of JW know this history? They also keep failing to predict the end of the world.

And yes, only the annointed can have nabisco crackers once a year despite scripture being clear in John 6 on the Eucharist , clear practice of the early church and 2000 years of history.

A lot of 19th century anti-christs:

• Joseph Smith
• Ellen G White
• Charles Russel

Another thing that they have in common is thet none of them can show where any great apostasy in the early church occured. No facts. No dates. No quotes. Myth. Deceived by Satan.

 

[jrtrent]

Another thing that they have in common is thet none of them can show where any great apostasy in the early church occured. No facts. No dates. No quotes. Myth. Deceived by Satan.

Not that I expect you’ll find Russell’s arguments persuasive, but you can read what he had to say of apostasy and the rise of anti-christ in the second volume of his Studies in the Scriptures (The Time is at Hand), study IX (The Man of Sin–Anti-Christ).

dawnbible.com/volume2/study9.htm

 

[Porknpie]

Not that I expect you’ll find Russell’s arguments persuasive, but you can read what he had to say of apostasy and the rise of anti-christ in the second volume of his Studies in the Scriptures (The Time is at Hand), study IX (The Man of Sin–Anti-Christ).

dawnbible.com/volume2/study9.htm

JR -

I started to read it and found it went on and on and on…etc. His apologetics practice here is to say a “LOT” and hope that the sheer number of words will make people believe it to be true. This has been tried before. I

If DO agree with his first quotation on the top of the page. Interesting that JW don’t see that scripture is talking about Charles Russell and others like him.

“Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that Man of Sin be revealed, the Son of Perdition.”—2 Thess. 2:3

 

[Battleaxe]

You can always show that qualities and powers attributed to God are also attributed to Jesus even if the direct references to His divinity have been eliminated.

They`d probably say Jehovah gave Him those qualities and powers. Whatever, they seem able to close off their minds to what others are saying.

Show them about their old teaching that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity (that is why their old literature is key) [So true!]…

Isn`t God supposed to be the Editor of The Watchtower; or is that just an anti-WBTS myth?
IF He is the editor, why the changes?

From what ive seen on these forums, individual JWs employ hit-and-run tactics. They disappear, never to be seen again, or at least for a long time. If they cant respond, shouldn`t that mean something to them? But, i guess they close their minds to that, as well. Another shrug.

 

[iohannes13]

They`d probably say Jehovah gave Him those qualities and powers. Whatever, they seem able to close off their minds to what others are saying.

Isn`t God supposed to be the Editor of The Watchtower; or is that just an anti-WBTS myth?
IF He is the editor, why the changes?

From what ive seen on these forums, individual JWs employ hit-and-run tactics. They disappear, never to be seen again, or at least for a long time. If they cant respond, shouldn`t that mean something to them? But, i guess they close their minds to that, as well. Another shrug.

JW’s attract people that are lonely, socially isolated, or going through some emotional trauma caused by loss etc. These individuals are showered with attention, affection, support etc. This makes JWs very attractive to these individuals because the congregation has the appearance of fulfilling the persons need on a very personal and profound level. And maybe it does, in the short term by my estimates, at least. All converts are isolated from their previous relations under the premise that the others will bring their fall with their devil inspired beliefs etc. In the mean time, the converts are being indoctrinated into the JW mind frame. They are pretty much brainwashed. The individuals described above are the least able to fight because of their weakened psychological and emotional states.

Like all Protestants groups that focus on converting others to their religion, JWs are trained well to convert others. Maybe their training is actually the most rigorous of all the groups. We are their number one prey and they are trained to come after us hardcore. Why wouldn’t they? We are easy targets and there are more of us than any other. It’s been said that the American Church has done a very poor job catechizing us. And if most Catholics are like me, well they are not interested in self-study.

I remember how they use to make me feel very stupid and frustrated because I knew very little on how to explain my faith much less defend it. The JWs know our Bibles are just bookends collecting dust so the onslaught begins with them asking about a Catholic belief and if we can show them where that belief is found in the Bible. We immediately show we don’t know our way around the Bible. Then the onslaught of questions begins. They give you no time to answer because they already changed the question. And they have cherry picked verses from the Bible that makes it look like the Bible contradicts the Catholic Church. Once they have your attention, they start hammering how we have been lied to all our lives and that priests don’t promote reading of the Bible because they don’t want us to learn the truth. Does any of this sound familiar? Of course they do this with the most pleasant demeaner and wonderful, understanding and friendly smile.

Little secret. The majority of JWs don’t read the Bible either and they don’t actually know their way around it either. At least all the ones I’ve encountered. They read the WatchTower literature more than anything else. The only thing from the Bible that they read are the verses quoted in the WatchTower literature. And those are cherry picked to support whatever message they are promoting ( Usually how all Trinitarians, especially Catholics, are going to roast in Hell). How many Catholics become JWs without even asking one question to a priest or knowledgable person for proof that Catholicism is based on the Bible?

My experience has been that they have to speak to so many people for so many hours to attempt conversion per week. Its called Bible Study or something else along thise lines. I don’t know what happens if they don’t meet their quotas. I say quotas because it turns out they are more salesmen than evangelists. What are they pushing? The Watchtower literature. The hardcover books they give away, well they are not free. One young lady gave me one. She did not charge for it but I asked how much did I owe her. She said I could keep it. I told her I felt uncomfortable accepting and would rather pay for it. I asked how much? She said whatever was in my heart to “donate.” After a few more questions, she explained that she had to pay for the book out her own pocket for the Watchtower to send it to her. It was a small book so I gave her a $20 (she didnt want to say how much she paid). I’ve always had uneasy feeling that the $20 actually went as a donation to the WatchTower and that it did not reimburse the young lady. I don’t know if they have to pay themselves for the pamplets and WatchTower booklets they give away.

Catholics learn your faith!!!

 

[Eglantine]

Also to our JW readers: Why does your leadership lie about the Catholic Churchs teachings? The end doesnt justify the means.

If my impression of dishonesty is mistaken, please correct me.

Hum. Now you know how the Jews feel, because the NT is full of lies about Jews, and those lies led to 2000 years of Jewish blood letting, almost all of which was stoked up by churchmen.

 

[iohannes13]

Hum. Now you know how the Jews feel, because the NT is full of lies about Jews, and those lies led to 2000 years of Jewish blood letting, almost all of which was stoked up by churchmen.

What In the NT are you saying was a lie about Jews? You didn’t give any examples for me to understand what you mean.

 

[Porknpie]

Hum. Now you know how the Jews feel, because the NT is full of lies about Jews, and those lies led to 2000 years of Jewish blood letting, almost all of which was stoked up by churchmen.

Way off topic…,start a new thread,

 

[Battleaxe]

JW’s attract people that are lonely, socially isolated, or going through some emotional trauma caused by loss etc. These individuals are showered with attention, affection, support etc…

Catholics learn your faith!!!

Thanks for the entire post. All good info and advice.

 

[Kc906]

Not that I expect you’ll find Russell’s arguments persuasive, but you can read what he had to say of apostasy and the rise of anti-christ in the second volume of his Studies in the Scriptures (The Time is at Hand), study IX (The Man of Sin–Anti-Christ).

dawnbible.com/volume2/study9.htm

I do find page 247 in Study VII from The Time is at Hand interesting myself:

"Other prophetic testimonies yet to be examined will also be found in perfect accord with these parallels. One of them, the Days of Daniel, points out a great blessing upon the consecrated who would be living in A.D. 1875 and onward—a blessing surely being fulfilled in the grand unfolding of the truths of God’s Word since that time. To him be the praise who hath called us out of darkness into his marvelous light!

Remember that the forty years’ Jewish harvest ended October, A.D. 69, and was followed by the complete overthrow of that nation; and that likewise the forty years of the Gospel age harvest will end October, 1914, and that likewise the overthrow of “Christendom,” so-called, must be expected to immediately follow. “In one hour” judgment shall come upon her.—Rev. 18:10,17,19"

Also see Page 73: "What are Gentile Times?–Their Beginning; Their Length; Their End A.D. 1914–Attendant Events–Events to Follow–Literal and Symbolic Time–A Remarkable Type–Present Indications–God’s Kingdom to Overthrow Gentile Rule–Therefore Organized** Before It Ends–Before A.D. 1914**–Why Opposed by Gentile Kingdoms–How and Why All will Finally Accept it Joyfully–“The Desire of All Nations Shall Come.”

People outside of the WTBS organization have the ability to read through all of their failed predictions (prophecies) regarding the end of the world. This is an organization who has printed several false prophecies in their literature, and then had their sheep disperse the material to the masses around the earth stating that only the Watchtower is God’s true organization. As a False Prophet, I have no doubt that their arguments will be cunning, interesting, and seem to have some truth to them, but why I would really give them consideration when a False Prophet (by their own words) is stating them is beyond me

 

[Battleaxe]

Not that I expect you’ll find Russell’s arguments persuasive, but you can read what he had to say of apostasy and the rise of anti-christ in the second volume of his Studies in the Scriptures (The Time is at Hand), study IX (The Man of Sin–Anti-Christ).

dawnbible.com/volume2/study9.htm

A good dose of venom.

I do find page 247 in Study VII from The Time is at Hand interesting myself:…

As a False Prophet, I have no doubt that their arguments will be cunning, interesting, and seem to have some truth to them,*** but why I would really give them consideration when a False Prophet (by their own words) is stating them is beyond me ***

Conditioning.
Reading nothing but their own literature.

The rest of us belong to “Satan`s wicked system of things”.

Catholics learn your faith!!!

That`s our biggest problem!

How many JWs (and Mormons and Fundamentalists etc.) are ex-Catholics, covinced by what seems deep Bible knowledge?

 

[Eglantine]

Also to our JW readers: Why does your leadership lie about the Catholic Churchs teachings? The end doesnt justify the means.

If my impression of dishonesty is mistaken, please correct me.

What a bunch of cowardly liars you are. You can say JW’s LIE but I get an infraction when I point out NT lies. Why does the NT lie about Jews? Why does it twist Hebrew Scripture? Why cannot Catholics allow free speech? Because like JW’S they are LIARS. Your faith is based on Roman lies about a man-god and you complain about JW’s changing your ‘scripture’? This is why the church does not like you sheep to study end times prophecies, which make very clear there ain’t gonna be any Jews converting to your man-god. Unless you wake up you will be held responsible for what your leaders are doing RIGHT NOW to Jews and to Israel.