Sorry Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, Jesus is God.

[Eglantine]

Proof from the Torah that the NT is false

noahide-ancient-path.co.uk/index.php/category/articles-by/proof-from-the-torah-and-tanach-that-the-new-testament-is-not-the-truth/

 

[Porknpie]

Proof from the Torah that the NT is false

noahide-ancient-path.co.uk/index.php/category/articles-by/proof-from-the-torah-and-tanach-that-the-new-testament-is-not-the-truth/

So what are your thoughts on the link below? It’s on the ark of the covenant and what the ancient Jewish people thought of it and then relates it to the new testament.

youtube.com/watch?v=jQ8SACmtJsc.

 

[Battleaxe]

What a bunch of cowardly liars you are…

Unless you wake up you will be held responsible for what your leaders are doing RIGHT NOW to Jews and to Israel.

Suicide wish.
Couldn`t you have started a new thread?
Minus the strong language?

The linked-to index in your next post has inflammatory language, as well.

 

[dj_dave]

[SIGN]

Seventeen years ago (theres a reason for remembering), i asked a JW at the front door how could they justify changing their beliefs. His answer was that theyre humble enough to admit that theyve held wrong beliefs. So much for Our Lords words that the Spirit of Truth would lead us into all truth. [John 16:13] Seems He got sidetracked or wasn`t paying attention a few times. But, the WBTS Holy Spirit is only an impersonal force, anyway.

im kicking myself for not keeping copies of JW literature dating back to the 1960s. :blush: Theres nothing like the original.

What anger me are the deceptions in their literature, eg:
On pages 40 and 41 of “You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earh”, there`s an illustration of the disciples with the tongues of fire over their heads.
The caption says:

At least some of the WBTS leadership must know that there`s an infinite difference in meaning between when the word “person” is applied to ourselves, and when the word “Person” (UPPERCASE “P”) is applied to the Persons of the Blessed Trinity.
Why the deception in that book?
And so on with other stuff elsewhere.

What`s their explanation?

There`s the rejection of the truth that Jesus has a human nature AND His divine nature.
Plus the belief that because Adam is a mere man, the Redemption could be achieved by a mere man.
On page 63:

That`s forgetting that the offended Party (God) is infinite, so the Atoning Sacrifice has to be infinite. Jesus the God-Man is the perfect choice.

[/SIGN]

i would be very interested in seeing this…nowhere will you find any watchtower saying Jesus is God…ALSO, we have actual books encouraging us to ask the peolpe we are witnessing to to PLEASE GET THEIR COPY OF THE BIBLE…and we will read out of it.

Finaly, Adam was a perfect physical human. You are not. Jehovah’s rule ‘eye for eye. tooth for tooth and ‘life for life’ came into play regarding Jesus’ death

Jesus came to earth was to die for us. He said: “The Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul [or, life] a ransom in exchange for many.” (Matthew 20:28)

Consider our explaination from “You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earh”,
*
*** pe chap. 6 pp. 61-62 pars. 13-16 Jesus Christ—Sent by God? ***
The word “ransom” is often used when there is a kidnapping. After a kidnapper captures a person, he may say he will return the person if a certain amount of money is paid as a ransom. So a ransom is something that brings the deliverance of a person held captive. It is something that is paid so that he does not lose his life. Jesus’ perfect human life was given to obtain mankind’s release from bondage to sin and death. (1 Peter 1:18, 19; Ephesians 1:7) Why was such a release needed?
14 This was because Adam, the forefather of all of us, had rebelled against God. His lawless act thus made him a sinner, since the Bible explains that “sin is lawlessness.” (1 John 3:4; 5:17) As a result, he was not worthy of receiving God’s gift of everlasting life. (Romans 6:23) So Adam lost for himself perfect human life on a paradise earth. He also lost this wonderful prospect for all the children he would produce. ‘But why,’ you may ask, ‘did all his children have to die, since it was Adam who sinned?’
15 This is because Adam, when he became a sinner, passed sin and death on to his children, including all humans now living. (Job 14:4; Romans 5:12) “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” the Bible says. (Romans 3:23; 1 Kings 8:46) Even godly David said: “With error I was brought forth with birth pains, and in sin my mother conceived me.” (Psalm 51:5) People, therefore, have been dying because of the sin that was inherited from Adam. How was it possible, then, for the sacrifice of Jesus’ life to free all people from bondage to sin and death?

**16 A legal principle in God’s law for the nation of Israel is involved. It states that ‘life should be given for life.’ (Exodus 21:23; Deuteronomy 19:21) **

By his disobedience the perfect man Adam lost perfect life on a paradise earth for himself and all his children. Jesus Christ gave his own perfect life to buy back what Adam lost. Yes, Jesus “gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.” (1 Timothy 2:5, 6) Because he was a perfect man, even as Adam had been, Jesus is called “the last Adam.” (1 Corinthians 15:45) No human other than Jesus could have provided the ransom. This is because Jesus is the only man who ever lived that was equal to Adam as a perfect human son of God.—Psalm 49:7; Luke 1:32; 3:38.*

P.S. if Jesus is God…who is he talking about 60 years after he returned to heaven? Rev 3:12

At least some of the WBTS leadership must know that there`s an infinite difference in meaning between when the word “person” is applied to ourselves, and when the word “Person” (UPPERCASE “P”) is applied to the Persons of the Blessed Trinity.
Why the deception in that book?
And so on with other stuff elsewhere.

What`s their explanation?

What are you talking about? it is hard to follow you. I want to answer any questions

 

[dj_dave]

I do find page 247 in Study VII from The Time is at Hand interesting myself:

"Other prophetic testimonies yet to be examined will also be found in perfect accord with these parallels. One of them, the Days of Daniel, points out a great blessing upon the consecrated who would be living in A.D. 1875 and onward—a blessing surely being fulfilled in the grand unfolding of the truths of God’s Word since that time. To him be the praise who hath called us out of darkness into his marvelous light!

Remember that the forty years’ Jewish harvest ended October, A.D. 69, and was followed by the complete overthrow of that nation; and that likewise the forty years of the Gospel age harvest will end October, 1914, and that likewise the overthrow of “Christendom,” so-called, must be expected to immediately follow. “In one hour” judgment shall come upon her.—Rev. 18:10,17,19"

Also see Page 73: "What are Gentile Times?–Their Beginning; Their Length; Their End A.D. 1914–Attendant Events–Events to Follow–Literal and Symbolic Time–A Remarkable Type–Present Indications–God’s Kingdom to Overthrow Gentile Rule–Therefore Organized** Before It Ends–Before A.D. 1914**–Why Opposed by Gentile Kingdoms–How and Why All will Finally Accept it Joyfully–“The Desire of All Nations Shall Come.”

People outside of the WTBS organization have the ability to read through all of their failed predictions (prophecies) regarding the end of the world. This is an organization who has printed several false prophecies in their literature, and then had their sheep disperse the material to the masses around the earth stating that only the Watchtower is God’s true organization. As a False Prophet, I have no doubt that their arguments will be cunning, interesting, and seem to have some truth to them, but why I would really give them consideration when a False Prophet (by their own words) is stating them is beyond me

NOW OUR HEARTFELT EXPLANATION…it may surprise all who take time
to actually read it…you will see actual quotes that absolutely void all critics.

jehovah.to/xlation/fp.html

 

[SteveVH]

NOW OUR HEARTFELT EXPLANATION…it may surprise all who take time
to actually read it…you will see actual quotes that absolutely void all critics.

jehovah.to/xlation/fp.html

I “actually” read it. For arguments sake, let us assume that these were not really prophecies but, as the article states, “interpretations”. Are you not concerned that each and every one of these “interpretations” were false. How can you have any confidence in an organization that has been wrong, every single time, with these “interpretations”. How do you know that what you believe today may not be changed tomorrow?

And just to answer the point the author was trying to make that we only look at the bad side of JW beliefs and ignore the good, would you be willing to eat a cookie that was 98% good stuff and 2% dog feces?

 

[Porknpie]

I “actually” read it. For arguments sake, let us assume that these were not really prophecies but, as the article states, “interpretations”. Are you not concerned that each and every one of these “interpretations” were false. How can you have any confidence in an organization that has been wrong, every single time, with these “interpretations”. How do you know that what you believe today may not be changed tomorrow?

And just to answer the point the author was trying to make that we only look at the bad side of JW beliefs and ignore the good, would you be willing to eat a cookie that was 98% good stuff and 2% dog feces?

Here’s a dodge and/or spin if I ever heard one:

Similarly, when Wesley drew the conclusion that the end would come in 1836, he did so on the basis of his understanding of the Bible.* Of course, this understanding turned out to be completely and utterly wrong, but that does not make him a false prophet.*

Yes !

a) he was falsely “prophetic”
b) his understanding of the bible is “completely and utterly wrong”

But where is the truth? It’s not in a JW anti-Christ (def: one who denies or opposes Christ) 1 Timothy 3:15

15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

And Jesus established what church? The Catholic church founded on St. Peter… and the gates of hell will not prevail as Jesus protects his church on faith and morals. Matthew 16:18

18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.* Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

On the other hand there is Charles Russell. A “miracle wheat” con man, a person of whom his wife divorced for “mental cruelty” and a person who lied in court saying after saying that he knew Greek but of course, he couldn’t read the text presented to him in Greek. And a person who had no religious training.

And that helps explain why his biblical understanding was/is **“utterly wrong”. ** :tsktsk:

 

[iohannes13]

NOW OUR HEARTFELT EXPLANATION…it may surprise all who take time
to actually read it…you will see actual quotes that absolutely void all critics.

jehovah.to/xlation/fp.html

DJ, if a person were to become a Jehovah’s Witness and he were to come across a verse in the Bible that teaches something different than what the Watchtower Society teaches, would that person be required to believe and teach the Watchtower’s teachings over the Bible?

 

[Porknpie]

DJ, if a person were to become a Jehovah’s Witness and he were to come across a verse in the Bible that teaches something different than what the Watchtower Society teaches, would that person be required to believe and teach the Watchtower’s teachings over the Bible?

And:

a) what happens when a JV asks about contradictions and/or different beliefs in their Kingdom Hall? What response do they get…?

b) what would the Kingdom Hall says about a JW who interacts with Catholics & other religions on Catholic.com?

 

[Battleaxe]

And just to answer the point the author was trying to make that we only look at the bad side of JW beliefs and ignore the good…

Or: “A poisoned apple is mostly good apple; but will harm you nevertheless.” [Fr Peter Joseph]
…

From Frank Sheed`s Theology and Sanity:

God, the infinite fullness of Existence, is wholly Himself in one infinite act of being, utterly fulfilled in infinite knowledge and infinite love, utterly simple, [because He`s spirit only] utterly single: yet not solitary. Mankind has always feared the solitary God. In flight from that terifying idea, the Pagans imagined a multitude of Gods…The Trinity was the right answer. God is one, but it is not the oneness of infinite solitude: it is the oneness of one infinite Godhead triply uttered: a communication of infinite truth and infinite love among three, infinite self-revelation, infinite self-donation, companionship at the level of divinity.

…God lives a life of infinite love. But whom does He love?. What is an adequate object for a love that is infinite? Not men nor angels. If God has only these to love, then His love never has an object worthy of it, for they cannot conceive infinite love and cannot return it. If that is all, God is forever loving His inferiors, as He is doomed to the companionship of His inferiors. The only adequate object of infinite love is an infinite being, God Himself…There is an otherness within the Godhead. Infinite love among three who are infinite with one same infinity means infinite love infinitely received, infinitely returned.

…The doctrine of the Trinity is reality about God. If we thrill to it, so much the better. But thrill or no thrill, let us keep hold of it and mentally live it, for it is reality, and whether we perceive its effects on us or not,*** reality nourishes. And nothing else does.*** [Emphasis added]

…

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…” [Genesis 1:26]
One image and likeness is the immortal soul: the seat of the intellect and will. The human soul is nothing else. It`s spirit only. So is God in His divine essence…infinite intellect and will.
Flesh and bones, and anything else material, are not involved.

“…male and female He created them.” [Genesis 1:27]
A reflecton of the inner life of God. The love between Father and Son brings forth the Holy Spirit. The love between husband and wife brings forth children.
The Blessed Trinity is the Divine Family. The Father is the generating Principle.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

DJ DAVE:

Please address this situation the WTBTS unwittingly created for itself:

As per “The Bible in Living English” 1981 edition printed by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society… (compare these to any NWT after 1960)

page 1365, John 1:1 “…and the Word was God”. (notice no “a god” as printed in NW editions.
page 1379, John 8:58 "Jesus said to them “Verily, verily I tell you, before there was an Abraham I am.”

Why does John say the Word was God in a WTBTS promoted Bible & not in the NWT?
Why does Jesus call himself “I am” = with God?

I have plenty more dilemmas to discuss but please answer my questions!

 

[dj_dave]

[SIGN]

DJ DAVE:

Please address this situation the WTBTS unwittingly created for itself:

As per “The Bible in Living English” 1981 edition printed by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society… (compare these to any NWT after 1960)

page 1365, John 1:1 “…and the Word was God”. (notice no “a god” as printed in NW editions.
page 1379, John 8:58 "Jesus said to them “Verily, verily I tell you, before there was an Abraham I am.”

Why does John say the Word was God in a WTBTS promoted Bible & not in the NWT?
Why does Jesus call himself “I am” = with God?

I have plenty more dilemmas to discuss but please answer my questions!

[/SIGN]

…WE also used the KJV for many years. I guess you had to be there to hear the conversations at the door. I was not. But if you have questions regarding the Bible and our
Interpretations of certain scriptures–I will be happy to dialog with you. One question at a time please.

 

[Kc906]

NOW OUR HEARTFELT EXPLANATION…it may surprise all who take time
to actually read it…you will see actual quotes that absolutely void all critics.

jehovah.to/xlation/fp.html

I know you are getting many replies Dave but this is the crux of the entire issue. It’s just like those commercials on the TV that come on talking about something, and then at the very end in fine print at the bottom of the screen says “We are not prophesying, this is merely our interpretation of prophecy.” Now this may be the official Watchtower stance now, but I don’t believe it was back then.

“Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.” Kingdom Ministry, May 1974 p. 3

So there were devout brothers selling their homes and property preparing for the end of the world. Why would they be doing this if the organization was clearly and concisely telling their “sheep” that this was merely personal interpretation of prophecy, a guess. Notice how this wasn’t a random Catholic like myself who picked up this literature and read this verse out of context and sold all my posessions preparing for the end. These were people who were in meetings several times a week, listening to different speakers, and reading tons of material put out by the WTBS.

I’ve been in Kingdom Halls before; it is quite clear that if you do not believe “the truth” of God as it is taught by the JW’s, then you will quickly have an elder approach you to educate you on “the truth.” If you speak out against something, well you always know in the back of your mind that you could be marked an apostate, and shunned by your “friends” and family.

Looking through old literature, you can find plenty of verses where the WTBS urges it’s sheep not to further their education, not to have children, not to prepare themselves to take care of their own “fleshly lives” on earth, why? Each and every time you see these statements it is always followed by “because the END is near.”

 

[dj_dave]

[SIGN]Looking through old literature, you can find plenty of verses where the WTBS urges it’s sheep not to further their education, not to have children, not to prepare themselves to take care of their own “fleshly lives” on earth, why? Each and every time you see these statements it is always followed by “because the END is near.”[/SIGN]

You are losing sight of the fact that even 100 years is a short time (Gen 5:5)

“Prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.”—MATT. 24:44.

“Keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is.” (Mark 13:33)

Consider the concluding words to Jesus’ great prophecy as recorded by Mark: “Keep on the watch, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether late in the day or at midnight or at cockcrowing or early in the morning; in order that when he arrives suddenly, he does not find you sleeping. But what I say to you I say to all, Keep on the watch.”—Mark 13:35-

Simplifying ones life is Biblical (1 Timothy 6:6-10) Marriage? Jeremiah was told to stay single–why? Many who sold their homes completely ignored this warning:

With regard to 1975: ‘What about the year 1975? What is it going to mean, dear friends?’ asked Brother Franz. ‘Does it mean that Armageddon is going to be finished, with Satan bound, by 1975? It could! It could! All things are possible with God. Does it mean that Babylon the Great is going to go down by 1975? It could. Does it mean that the attack of Gog of Magog is going to be made on Jehovah’s witnesses to wipe them out, then Gog himself will be put out of action? It could. But we are not saying. All things are possible with God. But we are not saying. And don’t any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975.

Many of these ones left because nothing happened when THEY wanted it to–and actually began to ‘beat their fellow brothers’ (Matt 24:49) with books and articles against there former religion. I was told that even Tim Staples says he visited the Kingdom Halls up until 1975.

Here is a recent article… we still believe we are closer than ever now!

Prepare for Jehovah’s Great Day

12 Both Paul and Peter foretold that Jehovah’s day would come “as a thief”—stealthily, unexpectedly. (Read 1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2.) Even true Christians, who are keeping in expectation of that day, will be surprised by its suddenness. (Matt. 24:44) The world, however, will experience much more than surprise. Paul wrote: “Whenever it is that they [who are alienated from Jehovah] are saying: ‘Peace and security!’ then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape.”—1 Thess. 5:3.

13 The cry “Peace and security!” will be just another demon-inspired lie; yet, it will not fool Jehovah’s servants. “You are not in darkness,” wrote Paul, “so that that day should overtake you as it would thieves, for you are all sons of light and sons of day.” (1 Thess. 5:4, 5) So let us stay in the light, far away from the darkness of Satan’s world. Peter wrote: “Beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on your guard that you may not be led away with them [false teachers within the Christian congregation] by the error of the law-defying people and fall from your own steadfastness.”—2 Pet. 3:17.

14 Note that Jehovah does not simply tell us to ‘be on our guard’ and then leave it at that. Rather, he dignifies us by kindly granting us “advance knowledge” in the form of a general outline of what is to occur in the future.

15 Sadly, though, some have become casual or even cynical about reminders concerning the need to stay awake. ‘We have heard that same reminder for decades,’ they may say. However, those individuals should keep in mind that by making such remarks, they are actually questioning Jehovah and his Son, not just the faithful slave class. “Keep in expectation,” Jehovah said. (Hab. 2:3) Likewise, Jesus stated: “Keep on the watch . . . because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.” (Matt. 24:42) In addition, Peter wrote: “What sort of persons ought you to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah!” (2 Pet. 3:11, 12) Never will the faithful slave class and its Governing Body take a casual view of those earnest words!

16** Indeed, it is the “evil slave” who concludes that the Master is delaying**. (Matt. 24:48) That evil slave is part of a group described at 2 Peter 3:3, 4. “In the last days,” wrote Peter, “there will come ridiculers” who, “according to their own desires,” mock those who obediently keep Jehovah’s day close in mind.** Yes, rather than focus on Kingdom interests, such ridiculers focus on themselves and on their own selfish desires.** Let us never develop such a disobedient and dangerous frame of mind! Rather, may we “consider the patience of our Lord as salvation” by keeping busy in the Kingdom-preaching and disciple-making work and by not being overly anxious about the timing of events that belongs to Jehovah God.—2 Pet. 3:15; read Acts 1:6, 7.

 

[dj_dave]

DJ, if a person were to become a Jehovah’s Witness and he were to come across a verse in the Bible that teaches something different than what the Watchtower Society teaches, would that person be required to believe and teach the Watchtower’s teachings over the Bible?

"A verse in the Bible that teaches something different than what the Watchtower Society teaches"? There are none when taken in context and veiwed with the Bible’s overall theme…do you have one in mind?

 

[SteveVH]

How many JWs (and Mormons and Fundamentalists etc.) are ex-Catholics, covinced by what seems deep Bible knowledge?

65% in my neck of the woods. Unbelievable. “Wouldn’t you like to be assured of your salvation?” “Sure, sounds good to me, where do I sign up.” Most Catholics, unfortunately, are catechized at about a third grade level and therefore are easy prey.