Souls of Embryos

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evolwk

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I have been thinking a lot about the souls of embryos especially because of the present embryonic stem cell discussion.

Assumptions: (1) life begins at conception (2) life includes the infusion of an immortal soul.

Has anyone theorized about the awareness of those embryos in a perpetually frozen state? Do they have knowledge of their position?

I assume their awareness is severely limited, if present at all, because the soul receives all it’s information from the physical components of the human body (e.g., eyes allow the soul to see).
 
Sometimes I wonder how aware somebody could be with no sense experience (not to mention the lack of a functioning brain).

How do we know that a soul is added to an embryo at conception?
 
evolwk said:
I have been thinking a lot about the souls of embryos especially because of the present embryonic stem cell discussion.

Assumptions: (1) life begins at conception (2) life includes the infusion of an immortal soul.

Has anyone theorized about the awareness of those embryos in a perpetually frozen state? Do they have knowledge of their position?

I assume their awareness is severely limited, if present at all, because the soul receives all it’s information from the physical components of the human body (e.g., eyes allow the soul to see).
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Taking your assumptions as truth, I would imagine that the soul is just along for the ride. Consider the embryo is frozen and no cells are functioning, I doubt it could feel pain or know about it’s surroundings since such cells are how we know about such things when we are older. Perhaps the only things the soul would be aware of are it’s feelings towards it’s mother, hope for the future, and non-physical things of that nature.
 
Shredderbeam said:
How do we know that a soul is added to an embryo at conception?
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For the sake of the discussion I was hoping to have, I have listed this as an assumption. 😉

I hope to not be sidetracked by that discussion.
 
evolwk said:
I have been thinking a lot about the souls of embryos especially because of the present embryonic stem cell discussion.

Assumptions: (1) life begins at conception (2) life includes the infusion of an immortal soul.

Has anyone theorized about the awareness of those embryos in a perpetually frozen state? Do they have knowledge of their position?

I assume their awareness is severely limited, if present at all, because the soul receives all it’s information from the physical components of the human body (e.g., eyes allow the soul to see).
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You are coming at this backwards. The soul is created perfectly by God! To say the soul “receives all it’s information from the physical components of the human body (e.g., eyes allow the soul to see)” is incorrect. i would argue that the soul is perfectly united with God and is confused and corrupted by what it “receives from the physical component”!

Perhaps the “frozen embryos” are in a perfect state of union with God?

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark
 
evolwk said:
For the sake of the discussion I was hoping to have, I have listed this as an assumption. 😉

I hope to not be sidetracked by that discussion.
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Sorry, I wasn’t trying to sidetrack you. I just wanted to know the basis on which the Catholic Church came to that conclusion, for curiosity’s sake.
 
Mark77 said:
You are coming at this backwards. The soul is created perfectly by God! …i would argue that the soul is perfectly united with God and is confused and corrupted by what it “receives from the physical component”!
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Sounds like a vaguely Gnostic claim. Also seems to deny original sin. A human soul makes limited sense apart from the body…this is what we call death - soul separated from the body.
Mark77 said:
Perhaps the “frozen embryos” are in a perfect state of union with God?
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I don’t think this can be accurate or abortion would then be a type of mercy and our relationship with God would look something like a reverse bell curve where we are perfectly united with God at conception, then stray during life, then are united with God in death. Quite the contrary, we are born separated from God by original sin and journey toward God by our actions and intentions and God’s mercy.
 
Shredderbeam said:
Sorry, I wasn’t trying to sidetrack you. I just wanted to know the basis on which the Catholic Church came to that conclusion, for curiosity’s sake.
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Well, I won’t speak for the Church, but if one accepts that a) life begins at conception (a scientific, not a theologic, position) and b) humans have immortal souls, we know that at some point this new life receives a soul. The real question is when. Since there is no way to show this scientifically, we must assume that ensoulment occurs at fertilization. Otherwise, one may decide that the zygote (or resulting fetus) is not human and can be destroyed when in reality that decision cannot be made with ANY certainty. However, to treat the new life as human life (body + soul) means that we will never inadvertently destroy a human being.

Peace

Tim
 
Mark77 said:
You are coming at this backwards. The soul is created perfectly by God! To say the soul “receives all it’s information from the physical components of the human body (e.g., eyes allow the soul to see)” is incorrect. i would argue that the soul is perfectly united with God and is confused and corrupted by what it “receives from the physical component”!

Perhaps the “frozen embryos” are in a perfect state of union with God?

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark
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Human souls aren’t perfectly united with God by nature, only by Grace. The unBaptized lack this foundational Grace, so it’s impossible to say that embryos are perfectly united to God.

And yes, the soul was made perfectly by God, but it was made to have a body and use a body, so the body can’t be a limitation on it. If the body is a limitation on the soul, then God lied when He said “it is very good” in Genesis.

Peace and God bless!
 
All we know for sure is that these frozen embryos are in fact lives that have been robbed of their freedom and their natural right to develop into full grown human beings. Their lives have been suspended in a frozen state.

The real debate is how do we fix the issue? The Church hasn’t given an answer yet. The answer isn’t right in front of us. It will take some time to figure out the best solution.

Creating life is something we have no business doing. It’s such an intricate art that when we attempt it we end up with these moral dilemmas that seem to have no solution.

Here is the latest word from the Church it’s called Dignitas Personae:

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/cdfdigpersbio.HTM
 
I have prayed about this issue because I really and truly believe life begins at conception and the ability to freeze embryos and reimplant them successfully really shook my faith. I don’t know what the success rate for implantation of frozen embryos is in the womb as IVF has a low success rate anyhow, about 20% and most procedures are carried out very quickly after extraction of eggs. I do not know how an embryo could survive being frozen if it was already fully alive. If I was frozen, I wouldn’t survive. A frozen embryo could be dead, a half-life, or otherwise it would have a frozen soul which I can’t imagine. God has given me an answer. If conception happens in the womb then the soul is given at that point. But when we take conception outside the womb we are making life into a “scientific creation” in some shape or form and it is up to God whether or not to sanctify. I think in the case of IVF a soul is given after implantation in the womb and up to the beating of the heart, although this is not defined dogma. So the status of embryos that have been created in a test-tube is “waiting the gift of a soul”. I still think this is a mortal sin as the embryo would have had a soul if it had been conceived in the womb. I don’t know about the contraceptive pill but as conception has happened in the womb I presume the fertilised egg has been sanctified and received a soul although again it’s up to God.

I believe a soul is normally given at conception except when conception occurs outside the womb because at conception the fertilised egg has a unique DNA and therefore is genetically an individual. I also believe it has a spiritual identity and soul from this point.

Also a fertilised egg is no longer part of the mother or father’s body. It is part of the mother (egg) joined to part of the father (sperm) and therefore is “a child”.
 
budgie2 said:
I have prayed about this issue because I really and truly believe life begins at conception and the ability to freeze embryos and reimplant them successfully really shook my faith. I don’t know what the success rate for implantation of frozen embryos is in the womb as IVF has a low success rate anyhow, about 20% and most procedures are carried out very quickly after extraction of eggs. I do not know how an embryo could survive being frozen if it was already fully alive. If I was frozen, I wouldn’t survive. A frozen embryo could be dead, a half-life, or otherwise it would have a frozen soul which I can’t imagine. God has given me an answer. If conception happens in the womb then the soul is given at that point. But when we take conception outside the womb we are making life into a “scientific creation” in some shape or form and it is up to God whether or not to sanctify. I think in the case of IVF a soul is given after implantation in the womb and up to the beating of the heart, although this is not defined dogma. So the status of embryos that have been created in a test-tube is “waiting the gift of a soul”. I still think this is a mortal sin as the embryo would have had a soul if it had been conceived in the womb. I don’t know about the contraceptive pill but as conception has happened in the womb I presume the fertilised egg has been sanctified and received a soul although again it’s up to God.

I believe a soul is normally given at conception except when conception occurs outside the womb because at conception the fertilised egg has a unique DNA and therefore is genetically an individual. I also believe it has a spiritual identity and soul from this point.

Also a fertilised egg is no longer part of the mother or father’s body. It is part of the mother (egg) joined to part of the father (sperm) and therefore is “a child”.
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Since being an embyro in itself is an early stage of life. Your thoughts about not getting a soul until implantation is incorrect. If this were the case the Church would have come out with the answer long ago. These are human beings that are alive and suspended in time.
 
Hi, I appreciate that you believe they are alive and human beings. I’m sorry I’m hogging this but I’m off work. However, in order for my soul to be in my body and physically alive there must be certain biological requirements like cell growth or cell activity. I cannot see how a human being that is frozen could have the soul within the body. The embryos could also be dead and I think a lot probably are. God would ask for all frozen embryos to be implanted.
 
I have been thinking about this issue as it must be the dodgiest area of science although my husband has a cousin who has had IVF. If you froze a living creature, then it would die wouldn’t it? If you froze me then I would die, if you froze a dog it would die. How can you freeze a soul? I don’t believe in frozen souls apart from the IVF scientists. Biologically, if you stopped life in a creature, how do you start life up again? The cell could be very simple, as I don’t think a person with organs would survive being frozen and I know certain things in cells start working again such as enzymes which just slow down when they’re frozen although i’m not an expert microbiologist. However, you couldn’t take a soul out of a person and put it back in. You can’t stop and start human life. You can’t start human life again without the assistance of God and normally we would only die once and wait for the Resurrection. So I think it’s true that they are still potential lives until implantation and have not yet received a soul. Otherwise they received the soul at fertilisation and were killed when frozen. As clear as mud. I’ll do some research for you if you want but I’m waiting for a Confessor.
 
evolwk said:
I have been thinking a lot about the souls of embryos especially because of the present embryonic stem cell discussion.

Assumptions: (1) life begins at conception (2) life includes the infusion of an immortal soul.

Has anyone theorized about the awareness of those embryos in a perpetually frozen state? Do they have knowledge of their position?
Click to expand...
No. In a frozen state, it seems to me that they only have the capacity for knowledge, not that actuality of knowledge.
evolwk said:
I assume their awareness is severely limited, if present at all, because the soul receives all it’s information from the physical components of the human body (e.g., eyes allow the soul to see).
Click to expand...
Yes. The soul is realiant on the physical order inorder to sense being and express its being.
 
evolwk said:
I have been thinking a lot about the souls of embryos especially because of the present embryonic stem cell discussion.

Assumptions: (1) life begins at conception (2) life includes the infusion of an immortal soul.

Has anyone theorized about the awareness of those embryos in a perpetually frozen state? Do they have knowledge of their position?

I assume their awareness is severely limited, if present at all, because the soul receives all it’s information from the physical components of the human body (e.g., eyes allow the soul to see).
Click to expand...
Having thought about this for a while since you posted these questions, I would like to say that I believe the Church’s position would be that the embryo would be aware, but not in the physical awareness sense. Although the senses do allow for outside information to the soul through the mind, the soul also receives “information”, so to speak, from God. The mind informs the soul concerning the physical and the soul is informed of the metaphysical by God.

My understanding is that most frozen embryos die, and, of course, those left unused, are killed. This is a tough thing to talk about. The step back towards God, despite the necessity to purge the soul of Original Sin, is nearer, I think, in terms of proximity to Heaven and God.

I would also think that they have knowledge of their situation, but, not like a formerly free person suddenly placed behind bars. I would think that the little boy, or girl, would consider that they will probably not get their turn at human life. Not get their turn to encounter God’s fair earth. Not get their chance at growth amonst the flowers.

Very sad, indeed.

jd
 
Mark77 said:
You are coming at this backwards. The soul is created perfectly by God! To say the soul “receives all it’s information from the physical components of the human body (e.g., eyes allow the soul to see)” is incorrect. i would argue that the soul is perfectly united with God and is confused and corrupted by what it “receives from the physical component”!
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This is false. That the soul is reliant on a body to be complete, is not a curruption of Gods work. Its Gods will that humanbeings ought to be a relationship of mind and body. Both realities have a significant and neccesary role in the application and reception of knowledge.
 
If you froze a living creature, then it would die wouldn’t it?
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Actually, there are plenty of animals that can survive being frozen and going into a state of complete suspended animation. Certain frogs and insects, and a microscopic critter called the Water Bear can all do it.

The reason that most living things die when frozen is not because freezing is automatically opposed to being alive, but because the construction of body tissues and blood in most creatures can’t survive ice crystals forming and rupturing the cells (frostbite). An embryo is built in such a way that this damage doesn’t occur, but as they continue to grow the cells are less pliable. So an embryo is definitely alive, just structured such that freezing doesn’t necessarily cause cell destruction from water crystals.

Since the embryo has a soul before being frozen (it is growing), it doesn’t lose it when frozen and then gain a new one. Everything is simply suspended, including the activity of the soul on the body.

Peace and God bless!
 
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