Souls of Embryos

[budgie2]

Actually, there are plenty of animals that can survive being frozen and going into a state of complete suspended animation. Certain frogs and insects, and a microscopic critter called the Water Bear can all do it.

The reason that most living things die when frozen is not because freezing is automatically opposed to being alive, but because the construction of body tissues and blood in most creatures can’t survive ice crystals forming and rupturing the cells (frostbite). An embryo is built in such a way that this damage doesn’t occur, but as they continue to grow the cells are less pliable. So an embryo is definitely alive, just structured such that freezing doesn’t necessarily cause cell destruction from water crystals.

Since the embryo has a soul before being frozen (it is growing), it doesn’t lose it when frozen and then gain a new one. Everything is simply suspended, including the activity of the soul on the body.

Peace and God bless!

Hi, but we’re not a frog or an insect or Water Bear. We’re human beings. I don’t know a lot about fertilised eggs but I know that it starts to cell divide and develop rapidly after fertilisation in the womb. If you stop it developing when it’s developing rapidly and freeze it, how do you kickstart development? I still find it difficult to believe that an embryo can be frozen and actually survive. We’re not designed to stop growing and be frozen. If an embryo stopped growing in the womb it would probably miscarry. I had a miscarriage at 10 weeks.

Here’s a website on IVF freezing process. It says that the success rate of implantation of frozen embryos is 20% and they are subject to cell deterioration over a longer period of time. Above everything, this shakes my faith in God. Surely there should be God given limits to scientific knowledge.

sharedjourney.com/freeze-it.html

 

[Ghosty]

Hi, but we’re not a frog or an insect or Water Bear. We’re human beings. I don’t know a lot about fertilised eggs but I know that it starts to cell divide and develop rapidly after fertilisation in the womb. If you stop it developing when it’s developing rapidly and freeze it, how do you kickstart development? I still find it difficult to believe that an embryo can be frozen and actually survive. We’re not designed to stop growing and be frozen. If an embryo stopped growing in the womb it would probably miscarry. I had a miscarriage at 10 weeks.

No, we’re not designed to be frozen and then thawed, even as embryos, but the point is that this doesn’t disprove embryos having souls.

Here’s a website on IVF freezing process. It says that the success rate of implantation of frozen embryos is 20% and they are subject to cell deterioration over a longer period of time. Above everything, this shakes my faith in God. Surely there should be God given limits to scientific knowledge.

The fact that there is a 20% survival rate proves that embryos DO survive the freezing process. As for God given limits, God gives us free will; the fact that we abuse it doesn’t disprove God at all.

Peace and God bless!

 

[budgie2]

The fact is this cyropreservation or freezing process might stop cell damage through preventing ice crystals. But the embryo is only being preserved. How do you put life back in to the embryo? They are saying that you can do the same thing with a human body. You could preserve a human body but how do you make a person alive again? Do you believe a scientist can bring you back from the dead? I don’t know. It might be a hoax. God lets them do it.

 

[JDaniel]

Hi, but we’re not a frog or an insect or Water Bear. We’re human beings. I don’t know a lot about fertilised eggs but I know that it starts to cell divide and develop rapidly after fertilisation in the womb. If you stop it developing when it’s developing rapidly and freeze it, how do you kickstart development? I still find it difficult to believe that an embryo can be frozen and actually survive. We’re not designed to stop growing and be frozen. If an embryo stopped growing in the womb it would probably miscarry. I had a miscarriage at 10 weeks.

Here’s a website on IVF freezing process. It says that the success rate of implantation of frozen embryos is 20% and they are subject to cell deterioration over a longer period of time. Above everything, this shakes my faith in God. Surely there should be God given limits to scientific knowledge.

Remember, there are no arteries or veins - no blood - in the early embryo. Just a sphere of cells. No blood to freeze, and no fully differentiated organs. Look up “cryonics”.

I do have an important question for you though: Why does IVF freezing “shake your faith in God?”

jd

 

[JDaniel]

The fact is this cyropreservation or freezing process might stop cell damage through preventing ice crystals. But the embryo is only being preserved. How do you put life back in to the embryo? They are saying that you can do the same thing with a human body. You could preserve a human body but how do you make a person alive again? Do you believe a scientist can bring you back from the dead? I don’t know. It might be a hoax. God lets them do it.

It’s not a hoax. Is is, unfortunately, quite real. For the present, we can’t prepare the human body for re-animation. But, we may be able to at some time in the future. Also, for now, a human being may only be put into cryopreservation once they are “brain dead”. So, there’s not much incentive to do this with humans yet. So, we do it on animals. Scientists bring those things that can undergo freezing back to life by warming them up.

God doesn’t stop us from anything. We either stop ourselves, or we don’t stop ourselves. We are the subject and the object. It is us that has this control. Why are you blaming God? All He did is make us in His likeness. He’s not putting a heavenly gun to our head(s) and making us do this. Blaming Him is patently undeserved and completely unreasonable. Unless, of course, we are just robots.

I don’t mean to sound mean, but, you’re not thinking this through. After all, you are more than a budgie.

jd

 

[budgie2]

It’s not a hoax. Is is, unfortunately, quite real. For the present, we can’t prepare the human body for re-animation. But, we may be able to at some time in the future. Also, for now, a human being may only be put into cryopreservation once they are “brain dead”. So, there’s not much incentive to do this with humans yet. So, we do it on animals. Scientists bring those things that can undergo freezing back to life by warming them up.

God doesn’t stop us from anything. We either stop ourselves, or we don’t stop ourselves. We are the subject and the object. It is us that has this control. Why are you blaming God? All He did is make us in His likeness. He’s not putting a heavenly gun to our head(s) and making us do this. Blaming Him is patently undeserved and completely unreasonable. Unless, of course, we are just robots.

I don’t mean to sound mean, but, you’re not thinking this through. After all, you are more than a budgie.

jd

Surely if an embryo is frozen, I read that they stick it in antifreeze and then liquid nitrogen, it can’t actually grow or develop. Normally an embryo would grow. How is it alive?

 

[Ghosty]

Surely if an embryo is frozen, I read that they stick it in antifreeze and then liquid nitrogen, it can’t actually grow or develop. Normally an embryo would grow. How is it alive?

It’s alive by virtue of the fact that its functions can start up again once thawed. It’s in a state called suspended animation, where the functions of life are temporarally shut down, but not cut off from the body.

As for reattaching a soul, the soul doesn’t leave in suspended animation, it simply stops acting outwardly in the body. Just like I don’t have to constantly be thinking math equations to maintain the ability to do math, the soul doesn’t have to constantly be performing all of its life functions in the body in order to maintain its connection.

Peace and God bless!

 

[JDaniel]

Surely if an embryo is frozen, I read that they stick it in antifreeze and then liquid nitrogen, it can’t actually grow or develop. Normally an embryo would grow. How is it alive?

Alive =/= growth. The embryo, provided it makes it to the frozen state, goes into a state similar to “suspended animation.”

When thawed out, the cells begin to exhibit the processes and activities we associate with “life” and the embryos grow into little boys or girls.

It’s tough to think about, I agree. It is unbelievable to me, anyway, that men and women can do this to fellow men and woman. But, I guess some of us are more worthy than others. The right to life is an inalienable right - but, not to little boys and girls when at their smallest - oh, and most helpless.

jd

 

[awantz]

I have been thinking a lot about the souls of embryos especially because of the present embryonic stem cell discussion.

Assumptions: (1) life begins at conception (2) life includes the infusion of an immortal soul.

Has anyone theorized about the awareness of those embryos in a perpetually frozen state? Do they have knowledge of their position?

I assume their awareness is severely limited, if present at all, because the soul receives all it’s information from the physical components of the human body (e.g., eyes allow the soul to see).

I believe they have souls. I lost a child before birth and I am planning on seeing her in Heaven.

 

[geekborj]

I have been thinking a lot about the souls of embryos especially because of the present embryonic stem cell discussion.

Assumptions: (1) life begins at conception (2) life includes the infusion of an immortal soul.

Has anyone theorized about the awareness of those embryos in a perpetually frozen state? Do they have knowledge of their position?

I assume their awareness is severely limited, if present at all, because the soul receives all it’s information from the physical components of the human body (e.g., eyes allow the soul to see).

You have to define “awareness.”

Also assume the following:
(3) Every human soul is destined to be united with a body to become fully human.
(4) When the human body is damaged to the point that it cannot support life, the human soul separates. This separation of body and soul is what we normally call “physical death.”

I would answer your question by defining that “awareness” is the ability of the soul to perceive the physical (name removed by moderator)ut through the function of the body. Since the embryo (frozen or not) are in a way limited as to the kinds of (name removed by moderator)ut they can have, they (as a whole: body+soul) would have little awareness as well.

They theorize that the soul knows everything after physical death. But maybe they are as well in suspended animation before they actually “die” either because the embryo deteriorates or that their nourishment is depleted.

In any way, who are we to have the right to decide that these human individuals be frozen without their consent? Even parents have no right to these persons — instead, they have the responsibility.

 

[KarenCatholic]

Hello,
i am new at this, so please bear with me. An embryo has a heart beating in (i believe 3 weeks), so prehaps that is when the embryo begins to have a soul. Regardless, at hopefully 9 months or sooner wihen the fetus can survive will have the blessed soul by jesus (as jesus loves all the children).
Karen

 

[budgie2]

Hello,
i am new at this, so please bear with me. An embryo has a heart beating in (i believe 3 weeks), so prehaps that is when the embryo begins to have a soul. Regardless, at hopefully 9 months or sooner wihen the fetus can survive will have the blessed soul by jesus (as jesus loves all the children).
Karen

I think most embryos that are conceived within the womb if not all are given the soul at conception although it’s up to God to decide when to give the soul. It is true that in the case of IVF the soul could be given later and up to the beating of the heart. God told me. I don’t think a frozen embryo has a soul and I don’t see how it can even be alive as it has stopped growing. My husband said it’s called suspended animation but most animals that can go into suspended animation are invertebrates such as insects or lobsters. I don’t know how a human being can go into suspended animation and it concerns me that the embryo/baby is growing very quickly when they freeze it so I don’t know how it carries on growing when it’s thawed.

 

[requieroveritas]

Well, I won’t speak for the Church, but if one accepts that a) life begins at conception (a scientific, not a theologic, position) and b) humans have immortal souls, we know that at some point this new life receives a soul. The real question is when. Since there is no way to show this scientifically, we must assume that ensoulment occurs at fertilization.

I agree that the question is “when,” but why do we assume that it is at the moment of fertilization?

Otherwise, one may decide that the zygote (or resulting fetus) is not human and can be destroyed when in reality that decision cannot be made with ANY certainty.

If one questions when the soul is infused into the body (or zygote or fetus, if you will,) by the Almighty, then I would certainly agree that there are those who would use this as an argument for abortion on the assumption that if a fetus, for example did not have a soul, then it is not human.

However, to treat the new life as human life (body + soul) means that we will never inadvertently destroy a human being.

I’m not sure that human “life” at such an early stage of development necessarily includes or should include both body and soul as you have indicated, although at first thought, this seems very logical. The body and the soul are two separate entities fused together, as it were, by God. The body, in early stages of development, without a soul, is no less a human body than with the soul, and is a product of the divine will. As such, even without a soul, in its early stages of development, this body is no less sacred in God’s eyes, and should be no less sacred in our eyes, because God has destined it for a soul. When God infuses the body with a soul, is God’s business.

This said, let me leave you with a brief quote from the book, “Mystical City of God”, which is about the life of the Blessed Virgin Mary, as described to Sister Mary of Agreda in private revelation. The paragraph describes the infusion of the soul into the body:

“219. The day on which the first Conception of the body of the most holy Mary happened, was a Sunday, corresponding to the day of the week on which the angels were created, whose exalted Queen and Lady She was to be. For the formation and growth of other human bodies, according to the natural order, many days are necessary in order to organize and fit them for the reception of the rational soul. Thus for a manchild are required forty and for females eighty days, more or less, according to the natural heat and disposition of the mothers. In the formation of the virginal body of Mary the Almighty accelerated the natural time and that, which according to the natural rule required eighty days, was accomplished in Her within seven days. Within these seven days, by accelerated growth, was organized and prepared in the womb of holy Anne that wonderful body which was to receive the most holy soul of her Daughter and of our Lady and Queen.”

I’m sure this quote will cause some consternation and lead to further discussion, but the book from which it was taken received the Imprimatur of approval.

What is being said here, I believe, is that the developing zygote, etc, must attain a certain stage of development before God infuses it with a soul. However, as I indicated above, this in no way lessens the sacredness of this developing human life, for it is God who caused it to start developing in the first place.

 

[awantz]

I agree that the question is “when,” but why do we assume that it is at the moment of fertilization?

Why> Maybe it’s because scientists believe it.

epm.org/artman2/publish/prolife_human_rights/Scientists_Attest_To_Life_Beginning_At_Conception.shtml

I found more websites supporting this, but this is the first one I came across.

 

[requieroveritas]

Why> Maybe it’s because scientists believe it.

epm.org/artman2/publish/prolife_human_rights/Scientists_Attest_To_Life_Beginning_At_Conception.shtml

I found more websites supporting this, but this is the first one I came across.

The word “when”, referred to when the soul was infused by God into the body, and had nothing to do with the physical body itself being alive, viable, and “human”. I noted that the web page you referred to here mentioned nothing about the “soul,” and I doubt that you will find any scientists willing to stick their necks out and refer to the body as containing a soul, given it by God. Science, almost by its nature, excludes such talk because the soul belongs to the “spiritual realm,” and this realm is anathema to scientists because it cannot be tested or quantified.

 

[RobbyS]

You have to define “awareness.”

Also assume the following:
(3) Every human soul is destined to be united with a body to become fully human.
(4) When the human body is damaged to the point that it cannot support life, the human soul separates. This separation of body and soul is what we normally call “physical death.”

I would answer your question by defining that “awareness” is the ability of the soul to perceive the physical (name removed by moderator)ut through the function of the body. Since the embryo (frozen or not) are in a way limited as to the kinds of (name removed by moderator)ut they can have, they (as a whole: body+soul) would have little awareness as well.

They theorize that the soul knows everything after physical death. But maybe they are as well in suspended animation before they actually “die” either because the embryo deteriorates or that their nourishment is depleted.

In any way, who are we to have the right to decide that these human individuals be frozen without their consent? Even parents have no right to these persons — instead, they have the responsibility.

Why not “soul and body united is a human being.” A soul that “loses” a body, no matter after how long a lifttime, will gain it at the resurrection.

 

[RobbyS]

The word “when”, referred to when the soul was infused by God into the body, and had nothing to do with the physical body itself being alive, viable, and “human”. I noted that the web page you referred to here mentioned nothing about the “soul,” and I doubt that you will find any scientists willing to stick their necks out and refer to the body as containing a soul, given it by God. Science, almost by its nature, excludes such talk because the soul belongs to the “spiritual realm,” and this realm is anathema to scientists because it cannot be tested or quantified.

Science presupposes a soul,even if the scientists refuses to reflect on it.

 

[churchsecretary]

I My husband said it’s called suspended animation but most animals that can go into suspended animation are invertebrates such as insects or lobsters. I don’t know how a human being can go into suspended animation and it concerns me that the embryo/baby is growing very quickly when they freeze it so I don’t know how it carries on growing when it’s thawed.

Well, one thing that can be added here is that many, many embryos look alike…no matter the species.
schoolhousevideo.org/Media/embryology.jpg

However, I would think that the freezing of embryos occurs even earlier than what is pictured here. Does anyone know when the freezing takes place?

 

[Areopagite]

The only way a material thing can be alive is if it has a soul. If life begins as conception, as scientists say, then the soul begins at conception. If we say that the soul comes after conception, then life does not begin at conception.

Also, **we cannot say that the soul pre-exists the body. This is heresy, condemned by the Church numerous times. ** If we say that, we separate the soul and the body too much. We enter into the Gnostic idea that the body is evil or at least irrelevant to the soul, making suicide and senseless mutilation of the body perfectly acceptable. Theology of the Body goes out the window too. The human body is a human body because of the human soul that vivifies its matter. A dead human body is only a human body insofar as that chunk of matter used to have soul. Technically, it’s not a human body anymore but an ex-human body (that’s what “dead” means really).

Many have claimed that since embryos can be frozen, they must be different than normal humans, since humans cannot be frozen and live. This, of course, is false. Or rather, it depends. It depends on the state of one’s body whether freezing will end your life. The soul only leaves the body if the physical functionality of the given body no longer remains intact. Many times, of course, freezing causes ice-crystals that damage animal bodies enough that the soul departs. Invertebrates, due to their simplicity, can remain intact easier than most animals under certain conditions. Frogs too. Also, the University Pittsburg has successfully frozen dogs in suspended animation and brought them back, thus proven that mammals can survive freezing. But, back to the issue: human embryos are humans in a very simple biological state. Thus, they can remain intact better than fully-formed humans … at least with regard to being frozen.

I hope this helps some people.

 

[ilovekittens]

What about identical twins? They start as a single, fertilized egg cell. Does that single cell have two separate souls, or do the two souls only show up when two separate zygotes have formed?