South Africa seizing white owned farms

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Ridgerunner said:
Most of S.A. is fragile land, in that rainfall is concentrated leaving long stretches of hot, dry weather. It’s not the kind of land that works well for small farming, and certainly not for inexperienced farmers.

And subsistence farming is not really the future of farming anyway; not here and not in AFrica either.
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You are assuming that the “backward Africans” are only smart enough to do subsistence farming. Only the “smart white man” can really make the land produce, so natives, just stand aside while we show you how it is done. The size the farm is not really the issue, is it? Small farms can be run intelligently too.
 
Well, we do know what happened in Zimbabwe, that productive high-yield farms collapsed when they were seized and handed over to the “veterans”. I cannot say whether South Africa’s land redistribution is following the same course, but if you’re redistributing to people who do not know how to farm, whatever injustice you’re trying to correct, you’re going to watch agricultural output collapse. And Zimbabwe has a lot more productive land than South Africa.
 
niceatheist said:
Well, we do know what happened in Zimbabwe, that productive high-yield farms collapsed when they were seized and handed over to the “veterans”. I cannot say whether South Africa’s land redistribution is following the same course, but if you’re redistributing to people who do not know how to farm, whatever injustice you’re trying to correct, you’re going to watch agricultural output collapse. And Zimbabwe has a lot more productive land than South Africa.
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Even if it were true that the “smart white man” could produce more food per acre than the “backward African natives,” those natives have a right to their land. They might bring back the white farmers as consultants or share-croppers. There are ways in which they can derive full benefit from their own land.
 
You are the only person who has made this a racial thing. The French Revolution is an example of the same problem with no one but Europeans involved.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
They might bring back the white farmers as consultants or share-croppers. There are ways in which they can derive full benefit from their own land.
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And pay them what? Once you expropriate somebody, you have to pay him a lot to put up with you again. I am reminded of a man who discovered a gravel pit near Indian land in the southwest. Apparently there’s not a lot of gravel for roadbuilding in that area, so he opened it up and got rich selling gravel.

Then the government decided that gravel pit would be good employment for an Indian tribe nearby and bought the gravel pit. The guy didn’t really want to sell, but he didn’t want eminent domain executed against him either, so he sold for millions and got out.

But the Indians couldn’t run it profitably, so they hired the owner back and paid him a lot to operate it again. So, other than possibly hiring more Indians to do the work than would otherwise have been the case, what did de facto expropriation really do for anybody but the owner?

Of course, in S.A. I’m not sure the government intends to fully compensate the owners. But I’ll guarantee that the farmers who have been running huge farms have a level of knowledge the likely distributees don’t have.
 
exnihilo said:
You are the only person who has made this a racial thing.
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All of this is the outcome of specifically race-based policy and dispossession of people explicitly based on their race.

Of course it’s a “racial thing.”
 
How so? Just because South Africa had Apartheid doesn’t mean these farmers land doesn’t belong to them. If the solution to racism is more racism it is obvious the problem of racism would never end.
 
Exactly.

One’s right to own something does not depend on one’s ability to exploit it efficiently (in the commercial sense).

To say otherwise is to venture into Leninist territory.
 
Feeding people is exploiting? So when the Church calls on us to feed the hungry, and there are a lot of hungry in Africa, she is asking us to be exploitive?
 
exnihilo said:
Feeding people is exploiting? So when the Church calls on us to feed the hungry, and there are a lot of hungry in Africa, she is asking us to be exploitive?
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You know perfectly well that’s not what I said.

My point was, and I’d be surprised if you didn’t agree with me, that one’s property rights are not conditioned upon one’s ability to use one’s property efficiently or profitably or even in the best interests of other people.
 
exnihilo said:
You are the only person who has made this a racial thing.
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No, the ruling minority in South Africa made this a racial thing by three centuries of racially-based rule, the benefits of which are still being enjoyed by white farmers today. This racial legacy cannot be ignored in correcting this injustice.
 
Inisfallen said:
My point was, and I’d be surprised if you didn’t agree with me, that one’s property rights are not conditioned upon one’s ability to use one’s property efficiently or profitably or even in the best interests of other people.
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Actually in the US your property rights are conditioned on the ‘best interest of other people’. Eminent Domain allows the government to steal your property for itself or even give it to corporations like ballparks.
 
So to end racism we have more racism? To correct past injustices we commit current injustices? Also, we make the living pay for the sins of the dead?

But that wasn’t my point. You inferred a racist comment when there was none.
 
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Imdaman said:
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LeafByNiggle:
Discuss the issues and not each other.
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Spoken like a true person who wants other people to sacrifice while at the same time hoping not to make eye contact with someone who wants them to sacrifice. I can’t remember the word for that!
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These words were often posted by the moderators, who are no more. In memory of our lost moderators, I will continue to remind us (and myself) of the rules that kept this forum civil. Will you join me in pledging a subscription fee in order to hire back at least one full-time active moderator?
 
exnihilo said:
Actually in the US your property rights are conditioned on the ‘best interest of other people’. Eminent Domain allows the government to steal your property for itself or even give it to corporations like ballparks.
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And if you think that’s wrong in the United States, I expect you think it would be just as wrong in South Africa.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
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Imdaman:
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LeafByNiggle:
Discuss the issues and not each other.
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Spoken like a true person who wants other people to sacrifice while at the same time hoping not to make eye contact with someone who wants them to sacrifice. I can’t remember the word for that!
Click to expand...
These words were often posted by the moderators, who are no more. In memory of our lost moderators, I will continue to remind us (and myself) of the rules that kept this forum civil. Will you join me in pledging a subscription fee in order to hire back at least one full-time active moderator?
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Don’t hide behind whatever it is you are trying to say here. Tell us what does your family have to give back to the oppressed American Native. Please put your property where your mouth is and correct the injustices of the past. All of what you have is made on the backs of the oppressed.
 
Imdaman said:
Don’t hide behind whatever it is you are trying to say here. Tell us what does your family have to give back to the oppressed American Native. Please put your property where your mouth is and correct the injustices of the past. All of what you have is made on the backs of the oppressed.
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Please discuss the issues and not each other.
 
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