Southern Baptists and saved/born again...

[Swiss_Guy]

the Bible states many times (about 120) that salvation is the result of believing and faith, and there is authority in Baptist Churches, it starts with Jesus Christ at the head, then Pastors and then deacons. Ephesians 4 :11 and following

justnobody

Salvation is by grace, which is received with faith. Salvation is NOT the result of something we do (even if it’s believing); it’s the result of God’s grace. (How do you come up with 120 times? Just wondering.)

Sorry about my statement of no authority in Baptist churches - its just there is not much authority at all.

 

[SteveGC]

Salvation is by grace, which is received with faith. Salvation is NOT the result of something we do (even if it’s believing)

Word choice is critical here. It is true, that our actions, in and of themselves, do not serve as the power behind salvation. Nor does our belief. The power that brings salvation to us is indeed the grace of God alone. But our actions (or rather, our active faith) is required for that power of salvific grace to be efficacious in our life. An active faith is an ascent of our intellect and will toward God, which is lifelong, obedient and repentant. Without active faith, that grace-powered eternal salvation is not ours to receive, or…once received, it is potentially lost.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Word choice is critical here. It is true, that our actions, in and of themselves, do not serve as the power behind salvation. Nor does our belief. The power that brings salvation to us is indeed the grace of God alone. But our actions (or rather, our active faith) is required for that power of salvific grace to be efficacious in our life. An active faith is lifelong, obedient, repentant. Without active faith, that grace-powered eternal salvation is not ours to receive, or…once received, it is potentially lost.

True, we have to let God’s sanctifying grace work within us.

 

[Elena_26]

Every baptized person has been born again, according to Christ. Jn 3:3-5. (Some) Protestants developed a different “born again” unbiblical definition that persists to this day, that of “accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior” and “accepting Jesus into your heart.” This results, according to (some, most, or all) Baptists in instant salvation.

But the teaching of the Apostles does not support this notion.

Jim Dandy
ex-Southern Baptist

James 2:18-19 (Douay- Rheims). Martin Luther claimed it was an “epistle of straw.” he could not make it fit into his theology of being saved by faith alone.

2:18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. *Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[justnobody]

Salvation is by grace, which is received with faith. Salvation is NOT the result of something we do (even if it’s believing); it’s the result of God’s grace. (How do you come up with 120 times? Just wondering.)

Sorry about my statement of no authority in Baptist churches - its just there is not much authority at all.

True, it is because of God’s grace that He gives us the gift of faith and the ablity to believe.

I once made a list of all the 120 verse but that was long ago and do not have it any more.

The authority in a Baptist Church lies in the pastor, deacons or in some cases elders and congregation with Christ at the head same as in the New Testament churches

justnobody

 

[Anna_Scott]

I was wondering when Baptists think that they are born again/the new birth?

I think they say a prayer=the sinner’s prayer/altar call and/or baptism too.

But lately they don’t that altar call stuff anymore.

I think they’re kind of confused about how to be born again…

jason3477,

I’m a former Southern Baptist.

Southern Baptists believe salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification, and none of these are related to Baptism or the Lord’s Supper. See The Baptist Faith and Message, IV. Salvation, Link: sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#i

Regeneration is defined as “new birth” and “a work of God’s grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus.” It involves “a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.” For the Southern Baptist, “repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.”

How to Become A Christian (link: sbc.net/knowjesus/theplan.asp): They suggest this prayer: “Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner and I do not deserve eternal life. But, I believe You died and rose from the grave to make me a new creation and to prepare me to dwell in your presence forever. Jesus, come into my life, take control of my life, forgive my sins and save me. I am now placing my trust in You alone for my salvation and I accept your free gift of eternal life.”

The SBC believes Baptism is a church ordinance, not a Sacrament. Southern Baptists do not believe any Graces are imparted in Baptism or the Lord’s Supper. In fact, Baptism performed as a Sacrament is not recognized as valid, even if Baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

So, if you were Baptized by a Church that believes Baptism is a Sacrament and Graces are imparted, such as the forgiveness of sin----- or lacks belief in the “security of the believer”; you must be Baptized again in the Southern Baptist Church.

There is an interesting “position” paper on the Southern Baptist Convention website, though it has not yet been adopted by the board of trustees. Final editing is to be made by the chairman of the board.

Southern Baptist Convention Link: imb.org/main/news/details.asp?LanguageID=1709&StoryID=3840

**Position Paper Concerning the IMB Guideline on Baptism
a. Baptism is a church ordinance.

"Baptism must take place in a church that practices believer’s baptism by immersion alone, does not view baptism as sacramental or regenerative, and a church that embraces the doctrine of the security of the believer.

b. A candidate who has not been baptized in a Southern Baptist church or in a church which meets the standards listed above is expected to request baptism in his/her Southern Baptist church as a testimony of identification with the system of belief held by Southern Baptist churches."**

Ironically, Southern Baptists look to Scripture for their beliefs. Yet, Holy Scripture clearly connects the forgiveness of sins with Baptism ( Acts 2:38). Baptism is the “circumcision made without hands”; being buried with Christ in Baptism, and raised with Him through faith, is connected with the powerful working of God. (Colossians 2:11-15) Just as circumcision brought the Jews into the Old Covenant, Baptism brings us into the New Covenant.

Peace,
Anna

 

[pablope]

True, it is because of God’s grace that He gives us the gift of faith and the ablity to believe.

I once made a list of all the 120 verse but that was long ago and do not have it any more.

The authority in a Baptist Church lies in the pastor, deacons or in some cases elders and congregation with Christ at the head same as in the New Testament churches

justnobody

Could you provide the Scriptural basis for their pattern or rather, following the pattern of the NT churches?

 

[Swiss_Guy]

The authority in a Baptist Church lies in the pastor, deacons or in some cases elders and congregation with Christ at the head same as in the New Testament churches

justnobody

But there are no Bishops or apostolic succession in Baptist churches.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

But the Apostles taught that faith come from hearing the Word of God and God given faith is the only means of salvation

Justnobody

If one is an adult, one must have faith before receiving the rite of membership in Christ’s Church (baptism). If one is a child too young to have faith, one may be given the rite of baptism, which saves, in the knowledge that one will be raised in the faith. This is the basis of Paul’s reference to baptism as “the circumcision of Christ”—that is, the Christian equivalent of circumcision. [Adapted from the Catholic Answers article on Infant Baptism.]

If you mean that Faith Alone is the only means of salvation, that’s not the teaching of Christ and the Apostles.

Jim Dandy

 

[Anna_Scott]

If one is an adult, one must have faith before receiving the rite of membership in Christ’s Church (baptism). If one is a child too young to have faith, one may be given the rite of baptism, which saves, in the knowledge that one will be raised in the faith. This is the basis of Paul’s reference to baptism as “the circumcision of Christ”—that is, the Christian equivalent of circumcision. [Adapted from the Catholic Answers article on Infant Baptism.]

If you mean that Faith Alone is the only means of salvation, that’s not the teaching of Christ and the Apostles.

Jim Dandy

Jim,

You are right.

Ironically (for those who claim salvation is by “faith alone,”) the phrase faith alone appears only once in Scripture:

James 2: 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

This is a good example of why Scripture must be considered as a whole.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Jim_Dandy]

True, it is because of God’s grace that He gives us the gift of faith and the ablity to believe.

I once made a list of all the 120 verse but that was long ago and do not have it any more.

The authority in a Baptist Church lies in the pastor, deacons or in some cases elders and congregation with Christ at the head same as in the New Testament churches

justnobody

But pastors, deacons, elders, and the congregation are all led by the Spirit to “all truth” in the interpretation of Scripture, as are, allegedly, all Sola Scriptura believers – and that’s every Protestant… Private interpretation of the Scriptures is a concomitant doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Hopefully, the Spirit leads all members of the same congregation to the same “truth.” If not, bingo, a new Baptist denomination or non-denominational ecclesial community may result.

Jim Dandy

 

[onenow1]

If not, bingo, a new Baptist denomination or non-denominational ecclesial community may result. Jim Dandy

Hi, Jim, All you need do is let your fingers do the walking to the yellow pages, many, many so called christian competitors to chose from

Peace:twocents:

 

[BigDave31]

I was Baptist before converting to the Catholic Church. Once I was having a discussion with my pastor about a certain belief. He said, Whenever two Baptist are discussing a scripture you will come up with three different answers. We laughed at the time but it is soooo true.

 

[justnobody]

But pastors, deacons, elders, and the congregation are all led by the Spirit to “all truth” in the interpretation of Scripture, as are, allegedly, all Sola Scriptura believers – and that’s every Protestant… Private interpretation of the Scriptures is a concomitant doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Hopefully, the Spirit leads all members of the same congregation to the same “truth.” If not, bingo, a new Baptist denomination or non-denominational ecclesial community may result.

Jim Dandy

However Baptist is not a denomination and not all churches that call themselfs Baptist are true Baptist churches

justnobody

 

[zz912]

the Bible states many times (about 120) that salvation is the result of believing and faith, and there is authority in Baptist Churches, it starts with Jesus Christ at the head, then Pastors and then deacons. Ephesians 4 :11 and following

justnobody

Who confers this authority on pastors and deacons? Who has authority over these pastors and deacons? Who hires, fires, punishes, and rebukes pastors and deacons?

The answer is the congregation or leadership council for the church. So these churches have instituted an additonal layer of authority into the church, one that is not in the Bible or your answer. Could you explain?

 

[justnobody]

Who confers this authority on pastors and deacons? Who has authority over these pastors and deacons? Who hires, fires, punishes, and rebukes pastors and deacons?

The answer is the congregation or leadership council for the church. So these churches have instituted an additonal layer of authority into the church, one that is not in the Bible or your answer. Could you explain?

I’m afarid that it is the Catholic church that has added additional layers of authority that are not biblical - bishops, arc-bishop, cardinals, etc

justnobody

 

[justnobody]

Who confers this authority on pastors and deacons? Who has authority over these pastors and deacons?

Jesus Christ, of course, no pastors or deacon will have a successful ministry unless he is called by God to serve in said ministry

 

[Jim_Dandy]

However Baptist is not a denomination and not all churches that call themselfs Baptist are true Baptist churches

justnobody

How does one know which are “fake Baptist” and which are “true Baptist”?

Like any of the other thousands of Protestant denominations, they may call themselves anything they wish.

And they call themselves “churches,” but that doesn’t make it true. There is only one Ekklesia – Church – and that is the one founded by Christ for the salvation of the world in A.D. 33 in Jerusalem, the Catholic Church. All the man-made ecclesial communities founded from the 16th to the 21st century have no legitimate claim to the name. They use it anyway. But the name is not the same as the reality.

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Jesus Christ, of course, no pastors or deacon will have a successful ministry unless he is called by God to serve in said ministry

Or thinks he was called by God.

 

[Tyuiop411]

Some very good points, however would someone who has TRULY BEEN SAVED, ever fall away? Yes, many who professed to be born again, have fallen away, just like many who get confirmed in the Catholic Church get confirmed, not really truly understanding the commitment they have made and fall away. Why is it that you as a Catholic must believe you are not saved for sure? Are you all afraid you will fall away at the last minute? Yes, agreed with all that you must continue the fight everyday against temptations to sin and sometimes we fall short. Does this mean we are now bound for hell, if we have truly been saved? If you are truly saved you will repent and return every time you fall short. And yes, just like any discipline reading the Holy Bible must be a daily routine, regardless of Catholic or Protestant. When I re-dedicated my life to Christ and was born again, the attacks from the devil became more intense. This, to me was proof that I did make the transition to truly accepting Christ as my Lord and Savior and stripped the old self. Before I was saved, no such attacks existed ( I was lost in sin, so why would the devil even bother, I was hell bound if I would have died at that moment).

Also, Jesus did state you must be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as further proof of your commitment to your fellow servants, God already knows you are sincere or not. The verse itself never says it is another condition of salvation. So in other words if I have truly repented of my sins and accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, get in my car to go to church to be baptized and am killed in a car accident before I get to church, I’m not saved?? Listen to what you people are saying. How dare any of you judge my state of Grace before God almighty? Most Catholics are in a sad state. I would be stressed everyday too if I was always thinking “am I saved or am I not saved”. However, I’m not myself in a position of arrogance either. It is a daily fight against the devil. Suck it up and drive on Christians. Be assured you are truly saved if you have repented of your sins and accepted the Grace of almighty God thru the sacrifice of our Savior Jesus Christ. If you doubt, then maybe you are not.

May God Bless you all.

Ed

I always find the “they were never truly saved” argument to be intellectually dishonest. You as a believer in OSAS ask yourself the same questions that those that don’t believe in OSAS do, you just phrase it differently.

On a side note, are you actually a Catholic? Or are you kind of co-opting the term to conceal the fact that your Reformed? Not trying to be mean, I’m just curious.