Spaghetti straps are immodest - why exactly?

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Litcrit said:
I love the discussion, and you make great points!

True, we can no longer be naked.

But Adam and Eve only wore leaves after the Fall. I believe that to be the ‘bare’ minimum (pun intended), and other things to be cultural.
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Ok… lol, now bear with me (bear not bare lol) but, for the sake of this argument, how do we know Eve’s leaves didn’t cover up the same areas a one piece bathing suit covers?

Anyways… I was thinking of sometihng else…I have no right to write about, since I need to apply it to myself too, but we are called to be saints, to strive for perfection (like Christ) even though we know we are going to fall waaaay short. It may not be bad to wear some clothes, but it may not be the best from a moral standpoint either… We aren’t called to strive to be ok, lukewarm, mediocre, we are called to strive for the best, higher standards… and I am not saying this to judge anyone or anything, lol, Lord knows I need to listen to it myself too; but it applies to everything in our lives, the way we dress included.
 
Our job is not to worry about men’s lustful thoughts. That is for them to control. If they have to move away from a pretty woman at Mass so be it. That is an effort to control themselves. That is what they are supposed to do. This is their lot in life because of their biologic make-up. So while it is not alway possible to control the thought one has, it is important to control acting on those thougts or storing them up for later fantasies.

Now to spaghetti straps. I can’t count how many times I see these tops and the bra strap showing. The bra is an undergarment and should be worn as one. If your bra is showing then you are not modest. If you are going braless at Mass you are not modest. Not many women can go braless without it being obvious. If you want to wear these tops at home then that should be your choice. Many of these tops look like slips or nighties. Again wearing your nightie or slip in public isn’t modest. If you are wearing a sleeveless shirt that covers everything except your shoulders that wouldn’t be immodest in my opinion. The problem is most of these kinds of shirts also have some type of plunging neckline that exposes the breasts and are made to excite the opposite sex. I think if you look at the garment and it is clinging with a plunging neckline that shows your undergarment or looks like an undergarment or nightie, then you can pretty much guess it is immodest and should not be worn to Mass. These things used to be pretty common sense.

As for the men’s underwear showing. Where I live, there is a nearby town that has made an ordinance that male underwear should not be showing in public. They are cited and fined. The city council decided it was a public nuisance. fox11az.com/news/topstories/stories/kmsb-20071113-kmovjc-saggypantsupdate.178b0ee.html Unfortunately there are those that will challenge this as a violation of free speech. Since when do underwear talk?
 
SeekerJen, I find it incredibly sad that you have missed Mass because you’re so worried about dressing appropriately.
Relax! Shoulders, breasts and thighs covered? You’re good to go -as long they’re not skin tight, dayglo latex or covered in obscene embroidery 😉
Pants? I’ve never, never personally heard anyone in Catholic circles who had a problem with trousers on a woman! I go to a very traditional Catholic Church and its never been an issue!

Karen
 
SeekerJen, one idea that came to mind would be to look up the rules for going into St Peter’s in Rome and make sure you have at least two outfits that meet these standards (or at least have two outfits that you know are modest, no doubts about it). When you are not sure what to wear just wear one of these outfits and don’t worry about it. It would be better wear the same outfits every Sunday than miss Mass 👍 . Sometimes I wonder about these forums too, as the posts are often based on opinions of people differing spiritual formation and background, plus different debating skills, which could lead to wrong consensus on certain topics… lol, but that would be another thread. Anyways, for the record, I don’t think spaguetti straps are the same as bikinis from a modesty point of view…
 
lifeisbeautiful said:
SeekerJen, one idea that came to mind would be to look up the rules for going into St Peter’s in Rome and make sure you have at least two outfits that meet these standards (or at least have two outfits that you know are modest, no doubts about it). When you are not sure what to wear just wear one of these outfits and don’t worry about it. It would be better wear the same outfits every Sunday than miss Mass 👍 . Sometimes I wonder about these forums too, as the posts are often based on opinions of people differing spiritual formation and background, plus different debating skills, which could lead to wrong consensus on certain topics… lol, but that would be another thread. Anyways, for the record, I don’t think spaguetti straps are the same as bikinis from a modesty point of view…
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Almost all of my clothing meets the Vatican dress code or can be easily made to do so with the addition of a cardigan or blazer. That doesn’t mean it meets American Catholic standards. 😦 Thanks though, it’s a good idea.
 
Are Catholics moving towards the institution, and then the requirement, of the Christian burqa?

I wonder if the latest rash of dress allowable threads on CAF isn’t just Gnostic tendencies surfacing. Matter is evil. Flesh is matter. Mankind is not good. Hide yourselves for you are bad and evil. Only true Spiritualism is allowed and that should be evident by the clothes you wear. Even though clothes are matter and are therefore evil, the fact that they cover up the flesh, which is clearly more evil than clothing, makes clothing less evil than a person.

Or maybe it’s just that summer is ending and we’re all thinking about snuggling up with scarves and parkas, so summer attire is becoming anathema.

Or maybe yet again - YOU ALL ARE LOONS!! Get a grip already 😛 (read that with a laugh, come on now).
 
I wonder if the latest rash of dress allowable threads on CAF isn’t just Gnostic tendencies surfacing. Matter is evil. Flesh is matter.
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(I know I will get flamed here…that’s ok:) )

I think so…and i think it’s because we Catholics are, for some odd reason I cannot for the LIFE of me understand, clinging so hard to the warped ideals of other Christians who take the truth of the human person and twist it. They make strange bedfellows if ever there were.

Catholics are not differentiating themselves enough from the evangelical and fundamentalist Christians that have made themselves very visible lo these past many years. We let them speak for us and represent us.

It’s a problem, and a big one.

Having said that, I don’t get all the whining about dressing appropriately for MASS. Or BFing discreetely in MASS. It’s just plain whiny and immature IMHO. For ONE HOUR A WEEK you can’t be bothered to cover yourself because of what YOU like or want to wear or is comfortable or convenient? I’m fairly certain dying on the cross for US was not that convenient either.😉
 
After thinking about it from the beach volleyball thread, I think a real difference needs to be made that modesty isn’t all about dress, it has to do with the actions that go along with it. My objection to the beach volleyball uniforms as opposed to others is really that it seems to market itself with a major aspect as sex appeal. While I don’t think women tend to understand the extent of which the visual affect men, a man could just as well lust after a female dressed modestly – being female is a big factor at least for a straight man. I think the other major aspect to the visual is how the female is using her sexuality especially in subtle ways.

I don’t think it is always necessary to think one must go ultra modest and through out a good portion of your wardrobe. One could probably worry a bit less about it, but be aware of signals you might be sending out. If somehow you figure out you might be using your sexuality inappropriately to get attention, that should be corrected. One should not be scrupulous about it though, but should try to get some feed back to see if she is on the right track. If anything your female friends should have an idea, and your male friends can give you their perspective too.
 
b_justb said:
Are Catholics moving towards the institution, and then the requirement, of the Christian burqa?

I wonder if the latest rash of dress allowable threads on CAF isn’t just Gnostic tendencies surfacing. Matter is evil. Flesh is matter. Mankind is not good. Hide yourselves for you are bad and evil. Only true Spiritualism is allowed and that should be evident by the clothes you wear. Even though clothes are matter and are therefore evil, the fact that they cover up the flesh, which is clearly more evil than clothing, makes clothing less evil than a person.

Or maybe it’s just that summer is ending and we’re all thinking about snuggling up with scarves and parkas, so summer attire is becoming anathema.

Or maybe yet again - YOU ALL ARE LOONS!! Get a grip already 😛 (read that with a laugh, come on now).
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Bahh if anything, people who have a bone to pick with it, when they see a thread with “(clothing)…immodest…?” are going to be attracted to the thread light bugs at night to a light. What you miss is that many don’t have much of a strong opinion. If anything a think the real majority of people who do care though want 1) people dress appropriately for the Mass and 2) be aware of dressing immodestly.
 
Back to the original question.

We Americans ore obsessed with breasts. Dave Barry, the humorist, said that a guy can spot a naked breast from two miles away, and I’m betting he’s right!

Spaghetti strap shirts are usually worn without a bra, and most of the ones I’ve seen are skin-tight. That just screams, “Hey! Look at these!”

If you want your breasts to be the first thing someone notices about you, go ahead. But please, not at Mass!

Two more notes:

Getting a tan produces rapid aging of your skin. My aunt Kathleen was a tan freak, and her skin looked 60 when she was in her forties. And I have “chicken skin” on my hands and forearms, which get a lot of sun; the rest of my skin is smooth and elastic.

Skirts? I firmly believe that the reason men are attracted to women in modest-length skirts is not the “free access” thing, but because skirts are feminine!
(I have nothing against pants, I wear them all the time.)

Ruthie
 
In defense of ladies and women. I’m all for modesty, but am a BIG stickler that it NOT be just a burden for the female gender. MEN should be modest too. We gals suffer impurity of thought also (believe it or not :p.) So, if you all are going to have us ladies and women cover up (which is more than fine by me!) then MEN should too! It goes BOTH ways. I.E. Put a shirt on guys, and pull those pants up a tad, underwear is NOT outerwear.
 
SeekerJen said:
I’m not sure why spaghetti straps are considered immodest now. I don’t think they are appropriate for Mass or school,
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Maybe that’s the point? I’m saying this without judging whether they are generally proper or not, but it stays a fact that we don’t find them oh so proper for Mass or school. Now why don’t we? This is an honest question, not bait. 😉 I don’t know the answer myself, save perhaps they might appeae flirtacious or flighty.
 
chevalier said:
Maybe that’s the point? I’m saying this without judging whether they are generally proper or not, but it stays a fact that we don’t find them oh so proper for Mass or school. Now why don’t we? This is an honest question, not bait. 😉 I don’t know the answer myself, save perhaps they might appeae flirtacious or flighty.
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Maybe, or maybe to me they seem more like party or dress-up clothes, and similarly a ballgown and massive jewels wouldn’t be appropriate in Mass or school. Perhaps it’s the distraction factor. I guess one could ask, is anything that grabs attention and causes a distraction automatically immodest, or is it merely inappropriate for a situation where one’s focus should be elsewhere, such as at Mass or in school?

I’m not saying that there’s ever a reason to wear a see-through negligee-like top with bra straps hanging out, but an evening dress cut straight across the top to cover breasts and cleavage, with spaghetti straps and worn with a good strapless bra, doesn’t seem immodest to me in the right situation (like a fancy evening wedding reception).
 
Writing this in my spaghetti strap shirt…👍

For me, the question is one of taste. You can have tasteful spaghetti strap, sleeveless or strapless clothes. And then you can have really hoochie looking tops. The former I would call modest, the latter, immodest.

Like the Supreme Court Justice once said, I know it when I see it.

I find some Catholic ideas of modesty just as alarming as some of the general culture’s lack of it. E.g. women should wear shapeless blue jean skirts with men’s t-shirts. This is a popular look at my old campus. I think it shows a disdain for the woman’s form, which is meant to be beautiful.
 
Litcrit said:
I love the discussion, and you make great points!

True, we can no longer be naked.

But Adam and Eve only wore leaves after the Fall. I believe that to be the ‘bare’ minimum (pun intended), and other things to be cultural.
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Adam and Eve did wear leaves after the Fall. God came along after them and put garments of skin on them. I’m guessing the leaves were not good enough. 😛 The question of course is how much did the garments cover versus how much did the leaves cover? 😃 I have seen garments that on women consisted of a bikini top and a miniskirt and then of course there are the famous Hawaiian grass skirts.
 
The problem I have with most spaghetti straps is that I see way too many women/girls running around in them with their bra straps showing. The bra straps are wider than the spaghetti straps. That is just as tacky and tasteless as someone (man or woman) with their underwear showing or their butt crack. It shows a lack of concern for ones appearance. Not that we are supposed to be vain but at least but a little thought in to how you present yourself to the public.
 
I’ve found this past year my spaghetti strap tops are becoming house/night wear. I do have some tank tops and a sleeveless top I wear out still, but they are modestly cut, showing no bra straps and not a single bit of breast on top or on the sides.

A few thoughts on this great topic:
  1. I do think it’s important for us to care about modesty. Not just for purity reasons, but we also need to start letting our little girls know they are worth more then how “sexy” they are or how much attention boys give them. I find it so sad that some people want to scream “girl power”, but they feed into trends like provactive dressing that is anything BUT girl power.
  2. If you can’t wear it to your grandmother’s house, don’t wear it to God’s house either. Seriously, it’s THAT easy folks.
  3. I tend to agree that girls in skirts get more looks from guys not just because of exposed calves (taking knee length skirts as the ideal for modesty) but because it’s feminie. I wear alot of long skirts and I can tell you, I find jeans much more immodest because they’re form fitting and draw attention to certain areas instead of a curtain over them.
  4. I agree we should have equal standards of modesty for men and for women, but as women we DO have to be a little more conscious on it. Not just to keep from leading men into sin, but also because there are men who will take it as invitation, sometimes ending in rape. Men don’t have to deal, realistically, with the threat of a woman raping them and then saying they shouldn’t have worn those jeans. Just a thought.
 
Ruthie said:
Getting a tan produces rapid aging of your skin. My aunt Kathleen was a tan freak, and her skin looked 60 when she was in her forties. And I have “chicken skin” on my hands and forearms, which get a lot of sun; the rest of my skin is smooth and elastic.

Ruthie
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That may be true of people in the sunbelt who are in it 12 months a year. Up here in the frozen north where the sun really only shines warmly for 3 months, that is certainly much less true. I am in my 40s, and my skin looks like I am in my 40s.

Sadly, the days of summer of winding down, so my daily dose of natural vitamin D will be harder to get.

For me, there is nothing more peaceful than sitting in the sun in the afternoon with a good book getting a tan.👍
 
chevalier said:
Maybe that’s the point? I’m saying this without judging whether they are generally proper or not, but it stays a fact that we don’t find them oh so proper for Mass or school. Now why don’t we? This is an honest question, not bait. 😉 I don’t know the answer myself, save perhaps they might appeae flirtacious or flighty.
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There’s sexual decency, and there’s what’s considered proper for the occasion. I wouldn’t go to church barefoot, but no one would get excited about my feet.
SeekerJen said:
Maybe, or maybe to me they seem more like party or dress-up clothes, and similarly a ballgown and massive jewels wouldn’t be appropriate in Mass or school. Perhaps it’s the distraction factor. I guess one could ask, is anything that grabs attention and causes a distraction automatically immodest, or is it merely inappropriate for a situation where one’s focus should be elsewhere, such as at Mass or in school?
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They’re dressy? Can someone post a pic of what they consider to be spaghetti straps? I thought they were just any shirts whose straps are thin.

Mine are decidedly not dressy, I only wear them walking out in the country or doing errands on a hot day. I don’t wear them in any formal occasion because they’re so casual.
 
StarPaintedBlue said:
  1. I agree we should have equal standards of modesty for men and for women, but as women we DO have to be a little more conscious on it. Not just to keep from leading men into sin, but also because there are men who will take it as invitation, sometimes ending in rape. Men don’t have to deal, realistically, with the threat of a woman raping them and then saying they shouldn’t have worn those jeans. Just a thought.
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Nice to see women getting some partial blame for rape. How dare they cause men to commit violent crimes against them. Also, kudos for saying women don’t rape men.

I wonder if you even realize the irony of decrying sexy clothes as devaluing women, and then turning around to say jeans could invite rape.
 
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