Spaghetti straps on little girls' First Communion dresses

[Debora123]

Eufrosnia, I am curious to know exactly what culture or cultures you consider to have the “correct” standard of modesty.

You already said it has to be a culture that values modesty (whatever that means) and that was not effected by the sexual revolution. Can you name a couple of those?

I can think of LOTS of cultures that were not effected by the sexual revolution, yet I am confused as to your definition of “valuing modesty.”

 

[robwar]

Eufrosnia, I am curious to know exactly what culture or cultures you consider to have the “correct” standard of modesty.

You already said it has to be a culture that values modesty (whatever that means) and that was not effected by the sexual revolution. Can you name a couple of those?

I can think of LOTS of cultures that were not effected by the sexual revolution, yet I am confused as to your definition of “valuing modesty.”

I am also curious as why someone who doesn’t have children and is newly married seems to have a strong opinion in this matter anyway. Is there something wrong with having modesty and covered shoulders at a first communion Mass? We are not talking about the beach here.
Likewise most parishes do suggest and offer dos and don’t in a dress code for such things even though you stated otherwise in one of your previous posts on this thread. Weren’t you the one that asked on a previous thread about sending nude pictures to your spouse who is stationed in another part of the world? What I am trying to say is that is that your ideas of modesty may not be the norm here and you have had argued for wearing whatever and this is rather curious since it seems like you haven’t had a child enrolled in this sacrament yet but have strong views on it.

 

[Debora123]

I am also curious as why someone who doesn’t have children and is newly married seems to have a strong opinion in this matter anyway. Is there something wrong with having modesty and covered shoulders at a first communion Mass? We are not talking about the beach here.
Likewise most parishes do suggest and offer dos and don’t in a dress code for such things even though you stated otherwise in one of your previous posts on this thread. Weren’t you the one that asked on a previous thread about sending nude pictures to your spouse who is stationed in another part of the world?

I didn’t realize I had to have children and be married for a long time to have an opinion on modesty. For the record though, I’ll be married for 3 years this summer. Not sure if that’s considered newly married or not, but either way, I don’t see why the amount of years being married means I can’t have an opinion on modesty.

Like I said on multiple other posts on this thread, I respect any parent’s decision on whatever they wanna put their little girl in for first communion. Do I personally think THIS:

dhgate.com/beautiful-floor-length-first-communion-dress/p-ff80808136a65aef0136a667762705c2.html

…is immodest? No. Am I not allowed to have that opinion since I don’t have a daughter yet?

Regardless, my objection to this thread isn’t about what little girls are wearing. My objection is to people looking around the Church and scrutinizing what other people’s little girls are wearing. I have written that several times. Perhaps you missed it.

I’m not sure why you brought up the beach. I hope you’re not suggesting that I said it’s ok to wear a bikini to church lol.

You say most parishes do offer some sort of “dress code.” Ok. I don’t know if most of them do or if most of them don’t. Have I ever been a member of a parish that did? No. Why does it matter? What exactly is your point anyway?

Yeah, I did make a previous thread asking for opinions regarding sending my husband nude photos of myself while he is in Officer Training for 3 months. What’s your point? (other than perhaps trying to defame my character)

You say your point is this:

What I am trying to say is that is that your ideas of modesty may not be the norm here and you have had argued for wearing whatever and this is rather curious since it seems like you haven’t had a child enrolled in this sacrament yet but have strong views on it.

First of all, please point out to where I have argued that “wearing whatever” is ok. Hint, I have not.

Second, as I said, I’ve already stated my objection and my “strong feelings” about this thread, and they have 0 to do with what parents decide to have their daughters wear for church.

So your assertions regarding what you are “trying to say” are unfounded anyway.

Now, I am asking Eufrosnia to tell us what society’s standard of modesty she proposes that we should follow. Do I have your permission to do that? Or are you going to continue to wrongfully accuse me of things I did not say? And tell me that I should not ask her that since I’m “newly wed” and don’t have kids?

 

[Portrait]

The more we make the concern of not tempting others our concern, the more easy it is for us to be modest.

Reading through this thread, I have seen many replies such as “I see no problem with dress X because that is what I used to dress ever since I was young etc.” That shows why it is important that PARENTS dress their kids appropriately from a very young age, possible just as soon as they reach age of reason.

A poster made a comment that we should allow little girls to be little girls. This whole thread has enough testimony on what happens when we do not train children from a young age to dress modestly. They just use their childhood as an excuse to dress the same way without any shame or concern about how they are leading others to temptation.

Dear Eufrosnia,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hear, hear to your remarks above - jolly well said. Thankyou for your excellent (name removed by moderator)ut.

Incontrovertably, dear friend, there has since the permissive revolution of the 1960’s been almost a complete loss of the moral sense and instinct for modesty among multitudes of contemporary Catholics. Many have been seduced by the allurement of unseemly clothing styles which plainly violate Catholic modesty standards, as well as being an occasion of temptation to others.

A moral obligation is laid upon Catholic parents to ensure that their children, especially daughters, are appropriately dressed, be it at Holy Mass or elsewhere. Modern clothing manufacturers are blameworthy for the sexualisation of children because they are purveyors of indecorous clothing styles, especially for young girls. This is why, dear friend, Catholic parents must ensure that their children avoid the “broad roads” of modern indecent fashion attire, for it is influenced by the brash world and a debased pop psychology that has no inhibitions respecting immodesty or transgressing the boundaries of propriety.

Moreover, dear friend, it is imperative that the faithful do not capitulate to their child’s demands to dress in the debased fashions of their non-Catholic friends. This, I appreciate, is not easy in our present anti-authoritarian culture where parent’s are under jolly tremendous pressure to avoid being unduly rigorous as regards child-rearing. Nevertheless, we must be strict in this matter, otherwise our precious children will, at length, be increasingly enticed by the immodest fashions of our godless and hypersexualised culture. If the young are not trained to dress in modest attire and parent’s are not strict respecting their children’s clothing choices, then we cannot express concern if they later begin taking their cue from amoral fashion designers who have a financial interest in promoting trends, irrespective of whether or not those trends conform to Catholic modesty regarding “seemly apparel” (cf. I Tim. 2: 9). These so called, ‘spaghetti straps’ are an obvious example of inappropriate clothing that is unbefitting of those who profess the holy religion of Christ, no matter what the age of those wearing them. How can it honesty be said that those who don such a flimsy garment are dressing modestly with decency and propriety?

If our young are not given sound moral guidance concerning modest vesture, dear friend, then we cannot blame them later if issues of decency and respectability are not pivitol in their decision making. By that time their primary concern will be, especially if they are girls, what is flattering and enticing to the opposite sex, or what is comfortable and fashionable. Hence, it is vitally important that we train our children early as regards modest attire, so that when they get older they will be less like to depart from the path of virtue and chastity - “Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it” (Prov. 22: 6).

Finally, Catholic parents must, dear friend, be alert to the relativisation of standards of decency in this whole matter of clothing and the inevitable loss of a sense of decorum that accompanies it. How we need urgently to return to the “old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein” (Jer. 6: 16).

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Lormar]

I am also curious as why someone who doesn’t have children and is newly married seems to have a strong opinion in this matter anyway. Is there something wrong with having modesty and covered shoulders at a first communion Mass? We are not talking about the beach here.
Likewise most parishes do suggest and offer dos and don’t in a dress code for such things even though you stated otherwise in one of your previous posts on this thread. Weren’t you the one that asked on a previous thread about sending nude pictures to your spouse who is stationed in another part of the world? What I am trying to say is that is that your ideas of modesty may not be the norm here and you have had argued for wearing whatever and this is rather curious since it seems like you haven’t had a child enrolled in this sacrament yet but have strong views on it.

 

[Debora123]

Just so you are aware, the assertions she/he made about me in regards to what it is he is “trying to say” are completely false. Just FYI, in case you care.

 

[Lormar]

Incontrovertably, dear friend, there has since the permissive revolution of the 1960’s been almost a complete loss of the moral sense and instinct for modesty among multitudes of contemporary Catholics. Many have been seduced by the allurement of unseemly clothing styles which plainly violate Catholic modesty standards, as well as being an occasion of temptation to others.

That is the point - when you have been raised in an immodest and immoral society, that becomes your normal. Add that to the obsession with individual rights.

 

[Portrait]

F.A.O. Sarabande

Dear Sarabande,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Whilst I understand that you posted the image in #172 to introduce a little light-heartedness, I must say, dear friend, that I found the picture deeply offensive and distasteful, not the sort of thing one would expect to be posted on a Catholic website.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[thewanderer]

Ok listen, you want me to make a judgement about your community. You make the following claims

1. Your community is a very tightly knit community
2. It is founded by those who carried on the values from pre-sexual revolution age.

Then you want me to comment on whether the values of this society are modest and its relative effectiveness.

To answer that, you have to tell me about (1) and (2). Otherwise you are simply someone dreaming about a community that does not exist. You keep saying that the community is very tightly knit, founders are great people etc. But where is the proof? For all we know, the founders might have made exceptions to the modesty rule that do not work. For an example, the founders could have said something like modesty not something to worry about if you feel there is a need to dress the way you do. Such a rule, as legitimate as it may be with qualifications, is not generally true. But a society that founds itself on such distorted values will end up with very distorted and even immodest values.

So please, stop dancing around and if you have something to say, please say it honestly. I am not under test. Neither are you under test. It is this hypothetical or illusory community you speak of that is under test. Alright? Because otherwise you are wasting my time and yours.

I am not trying to dance around. And I am not even necessarily going to ever bring up the actual standards of this community into this thread. I am trying to understand what universal principles one is supposed to use to determine which societies we are supposed to look at to determine what the “universal” standard of modesty is. I’m sorry if you feel as though I am trying to trap you or some such thing. Thats really not what I am doing at all. I have heard various people make a claim before that there is such a universal standard, most of them never even begin to attempt to explain how we can possibly know what that standard is though. You, and one or two people I have talked to before, have tried to explain it, and since I like to try and understand other people’s positions and understandings of a subject so that if they are correct I can modify my own understanding of things, I am trying to understand how, concretely, one determines whether or not a society can be considered modest for the purposes of determining this universal standard of modesty. I am not trying to trap you. Honestly, I don’t understand why it matters whether or not this particular society even exists for the sake of the current discussion, but, as it happens, it actually does. I am trying to understand how, without any prior knowledge of what the universal standard of modesty is, determine which societies are to be looked at in order to determine what the universal standard of modesty is. And, to be honest, I am beginning to think that your reasoning actually is circular. I, of course, am willing to be corrected on that, but the thing is that you seem to be claiming that in order to determine whether or not a society can be counted in these “modest societies” we need to know what that societies actual rules about modesty are, and then base our judgement of whether or not the society is modest off of what their particular standards of dress are. However, if that is true, then you are relying on having a set determination of what is and is not modest clothing in order to determine what societies are supposedly showing us what the universal standard of modesty is. In other words, your attempt to give a universal way to determine standards of modesty looks like it is actually resting on a pre-assumed idea of what the standard of modest clothing is. The reason this seems to be the case is because of this part of what you wrote above

You keep saying that the community is very tightly knit, founders are great people etc. But where is the proof? For all we know, the founders might have made exceptions to the modesty rule that do not work.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you about this, and if so I would love to be corrected.

To be honest, though, we really do seem to be going around in circles, and that is because I am looking for a set of all the information needed to determine whether or not a society is modest. The problem is, though that every time I try to apply the requirements to a particular society you say that there are actually more requirements than those you have already stated. If you can give me a list of all the requirements for determining that a particular society is one to look to for determining the universal standard of modesty then we will not keep going around in circles anymore as I will have the answer to my question, namely, I will understand the reasoning behind the claim that there is a universal standard of modesty.

 

[Sarabande]

F.A.O. Sarabande

Dear Sarabande,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Whilst I understand that you posted the image in #172 to introduce a little light-heartedness, I must say, dear friend, that I found the picture deeply offensive and distasteful, not the sort of thing one would expect to be posted on a Catholic website.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

I am sorry that you found the picture offensive. It was to show how strapless dresses can look to people sitting behind these ladies, thus the quote: “Another good reason to not have your bridesmaids wear strapless dresses.” I personally did not find it offensive or distasteful as it was to make a point and not condone the fashion of strapless dresses. This is something my Catholic musician colleagues and I see practically every weekend and we are always wondering why strapless dresses are so popular due to how many people really don’t look good in them, how they look when you sit behind them in a church, among other things.

But let us not derail this thread with your offended sensibilities or my reasons for posting this pic, which I respect and why I apologise for it. I do not like to inadvertently offend people. If you have any further issues or commentary to make upon my sense of humour or response to your post, please do so via private message. I trust that the gentleman (or lady) that you are would honour my request.

Much thanks, and God bless to you as well.

 

[Portrait]

I am sorry that you found the picture offensive. It was to show how strapless dresses can look to people sitting behind these ladies, thus the quote: “Another good reason to not have your bridesmaids wear strapless dresses.” I personally did not find it offensive or distasteful as it was to make a point and not condone the fashion of strapless dresses. This is something my Catholic musician colleagues and I see practically every weekend and we are always wondering why strapless dresses are so popular due to how many people really don’t look good in them, how they look when you sit behind them in a church, among other things.

But let us not derail this thread with your offended sensibilities or my reasons for posting this pic, which I respect and why I apologise for it. I do not like to inadvertently offend people. If you have any further issues or commentary to make upon my sense of humour or response to your post, please do so via private message. I trust that the gentleman (or lady) that you are would honour my request.

Much thanks, and God bless to you as well.

Dear Sarabande,

Cordial greetings.

Thankyou kindly for your apology, dear friend, which I gladly accept.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:

 

[Eufrosnia]

I am not trying to dance around. And I am not even necessarily going to ever bring up the actual standards of this community into this thread. I am trying to understand what universal principles one is supposed to use to determine which societies we are supposed to look at to determine what the “universal” standard of modesty is. I’m sorry if you feel as though I am trying to trap you or some such thing. Thats really not what I am doing at all. I have heard various people make a claim before that there is such a universal standard, most of them never even begin to attempt to explain how we can possibly know what that standard is though. You, and one or two people I have talked to before, have tried to explain it, and since I like to try and understand other people’s positions and understandings of a subject so that if they are correct I can modify my own understanding of things, I am trying to understand how, concretely, one determines whether or not a society can be considered modest for the purposes of determining this universal standard of modesty. I am not trying to trap you. Honestly, I don’t understand why it matters whether or not this particular society even exists for the sake of the current discussion, but, as it happens, it actually does. I am trying to understand how, without any prior knowledge of what the universal standard of modesty is, determine which societies are to be looked at in order to determine what the universal standard of modesty is. And, to be honest, I am beginning to think that your reasoning actually is circular. I, of course, am willing to be corrected on that, but the thing is that you seem to be claiming that in order to determine whether or not a society can be counted in these “modest societies” we need to know what that societies actual rules about modesty are, and then base our judgement of whether or not the society is modest off of what their particular standards of dress are. However, if that is true, then you are relying on having a set determination of what is and is not modest clothing in order to determine what societies are supposedly showing us what the universal standard of modesty is. In other words, your attempt to give a universal way to determine standards of modesty looks like it is actually resting on a pre-assumed idea of what the standard of modest clothing is. The reason this seems to be the case is because of this part of what you wrote above

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you about this, and if so I would love to be corrected.

To be honest, though, we really do seem to be going around in circles, and that is because I am looking for a set of all the information needed to determine whether or not a society is modest. The problem is, though that every time I try to apply the requirements to a particular society you say that there are actually more requirements than those you have already stated. If you can give me a list of all the requirements for determining that a particular society is one to look to for determining the universal standard of modesty then we will not keep going around in circles anymore as I will have the answer to my question, namely, I will understand the reasoning behind the claim that there is a universal standard of modesty.

Ok please understand this. I am not in the business of making sure you understand what I say, yes? After all, I have no guarantee that even if my position was not circular, you will grasp it. So that is not my concern.

As far as I can see, any one honestly seeking to be modest can easily know what he or she needs to do. They just need to find a set of values from a culture that has held a positive attitude toward modesty for a long time. The older the culture, the more refined the value set with respect to preserving modesty.

So anyone who is interested, including yourself, can take value set from the Western culture from pre-sexual revolution era and see if your current community even comes close to it. You could also see if your community just started by scratch (which the first check will of course verify). If it started from scratch, then it is understandable that its standards are still weak considering it is also a smaller subculture within a large hostile culture that controls many modes of influence such as media and advertising. Should a person, given the choice between that and another older culture, adopt your bubble culture? The answer seems to be NO. Why? Because it is still primitive and probably hasn’t had enough time to refine itself anyway.

Now I leave it to you to read the above and understand why it is not circular. As someone who does work primarily in the work of logical analysis, I cannot see any “circularity” in the above position. Perhaps if you stepped outside of trying to defend your position, whichever it is that you have, then things might become clearer to you as well.

Anyway, I have nothing further to add but repeat myself now. So hope this will do.

 

[EasterJoy]

Speaking of recipes, I’m hungry after reading this thread! It’s put me in the mood for horse meat that is nice and tender after being beaten repeatedly…

Anybody have a good recipe for that?

Sure. No ingredients, just directions…stop posting! And on that note, I’m going to do my part to save a deceased animal of transportation from further abuse…

(Oh, yes, the PETA chapter for metaphorical forum animals could have me up on charges many times over, and we all know it!!! I need to REPENT!! )

 

[thewanderer]

Ok please understand this.** I am not in the business of making sure you understand what I say, yes? After all, I have no guarantee that even if my position was not circular, you will grasp it. So that is not my concern.**

As far as I can see, any one honestly seeking to be modest can easily know what he or she needs to do. They just need to find a set of values from a culture that has held a positive attitude toward modesty for a long time. The older the culture, the more refined the value set with respect to preserving modesty.

So anyone who is interested, including yourself, can take value set from the Western culture from pre-sexual revolution era and see if your current community even comes close to it. You could also see if your community just started by scratch (which the first check will of course verify). If it started from scratch, then it is understandable that its standards are still weak considering it is also a smaller subculture within a large hostile culture that controls many modes of influence such as media and advertising. Should a person, given the choice between that and another older culture, adopt your bubble culture? The answer seems to be NO. Why? Because it is still primitive and probably hasn’t had enough time to refine itself anyway.

Now I leave it to you to read the above and understand why it is not circular. As someone who does work primarily in the work of logical analysis, I cannot see any “circularity” in the above position.** Perhaps if you stepped outside of trying to defend your position, whichever it is that you have, then things might become clearer to you as well.
**
Anyway, I have nothing further to add but repeat myself now. So hope this will do.

I am not trying to defend any position in particular but am honestly just trying to understand yours. And, while, of course there is no guarantee that I will understand what you are saying, I would have thought that if a person engaged in a conversation they would be trying to help the other person understand their position. So I am very sorry to hear that I have been wasting my time in trying to understand your position. From the way you have responded to me it seems as though you feel, despite my protestations that this is not the case, as though I am trying to catch you out or attack your position. I am sorry that you feel this way as it truly is not at all what I am trying to do. I guess I will just have to wait until I meet another person who holds this position to be able to attempt to understand it. Have a good day.

 

[Eufrosnia]

I am not trying to defend any position in particular but am honestly just trying to understand yours. And, while, of course there is no guarantee that I will understand what you are saying, I would have thought that if a person engaged in a conversation they would be trying to help the other person understand their position. So I am very sorry to hear that I have been wasting my time in trying to understand your position. From the way you have responded to me it seems as though you feel, despite my protestations that this is not the case, as though I am trying to catch you out or attack your position. I am sorry that you feel this way as it truly is not at all what I am trying to do. I guess I will just have to wait until I meet another person who holds this position to be able to attempt to understand it. Have a good day.

Perhaps with time it will become clearer. Just read it and keep in the back of your mind. We all have these moments when things just CLICK at a later time!

 

[Debora123]

Perhaps with time it will become clearer. Just read it and keep in the back of your mind. We all have these moments when things just CLICK at a later time!

Eufrosnia, I am curious to know exactly what culture or cultures you consider to have the “correct” standard of modesty.

You already said it has to be a culture that values modesty (whatever that means) and that was not effected by the sexual revolution. Can you name a couple of those?

I can think of LOTS of cultures that were not effected by the sexual revolution, yet I am confused as to your definition of “valuing modesty.”

 

[thewanderer]

Perhaps with time it will become clearer. Just read it and keep in the back of your mind. We all have these moments when things just CLICK at a later time!

Well… see, I guess the thing is that my question didn’t have anything to do with having a debate about what particular articles of clothing are modest and what aren’t, but rather about whether or not there is a universal standard of modesty, and, if there is, how to discover what it is without relying on previous assumptions about what is and is not modest. Since you have not yet given me a complete list of the criteria needed to determine whether or not a society is modest I really don’t see how I’m going to figure out what the reasoning for this is by rereading and rethinking about your posts. But since you are done with this conversation thats fine, I will just wait until I meet someone else with the same line of thought and perhaps they will be able to explain it to me at some point.

 

[Eufrosnia]

Eufrosnia, I am curious to know exactly what culture or cultures you consider to have the “correct” standard of modesty.

You already said it has to be a culture that values modesty (whatever that means) and that was not effected by the sexual revolution. Can you name a couple of those?

I can think of LOTS of cultures that were not effected by the sexual revolution, yet I am confused as to your definition of “valuing modesty.”

Well… see, I guess the thing is that my question didn’t have anything to do with having a debate about what particular articles of clothing are modest and what aren’t, but rather about whether or not there is a universal standard of modesty, and, if there is, how to discover what it is without relying on previous assumptions about what is and is not modest. Since you have not yet given me a complete list of the criteria needed to determine whether or not a society is modest I really don’t see how I’m going to figure out what the reasoning for this is by rereading and rethinking about your posts. But since you are done with this conversation thats fine, I will just wait until I meet someone else with the same line of thought and perhaps they will be able to explain it to me at some point.

Oh but I have. A society contains values of modesty if its attitude toward modesty is positive.

Now you and Deborah123 seem to have the same problem of not being able to comprehend what a “positive attitude toward modesty” might even mean. Since you are young and probably have never experienced such a culture where you grew up, it can certainly be hard to even know what it means.

So to explain with something else, think of a society you state as having an encouraging attitude unbridled sex. You will see it portrayed in media. You will see those who do not buy in to the idea as being backward, outcasts or deviants. Your parents and friends will advise you on how to go about having uncontrolled sex. Books will be written on it and it will be a hot topic. Friends will correct you if you are not going about the right way. You will appreciate their correction and pick up some tips from them. Imagine a society that has been like this for thousand of years. They will be experts on how to have and foster uncontrolled sex.

THAT is what a positive attitude looks like and what it can result in.

Now imagine a society with an attitude like that toward modesty. That is the society you should be picking up values from. This is not rocket science.

I hope that at least gave you some direction as you try to make sense of this very foreign sounding concept that I seem to have introduced you to.

 

[thewanderer]

Oh but I have. A society contains values of modesty if its attitude toward modesty is positive.

Now you and Deborah123 seem to have the same problem of not being able to comprehend what a “positive attitude toward modesty” might even mean. Since you are young and probably have never experienced such a culture where you grew up, it can certainly be hard to even know what it means.

So to explain with something else, think of a society you state as having an encouraging attitude unbridled sex. You will see it portrayed in media. You will see those who do not buy in to the idea as being backward, outcasts or deviants. Your parents and friends will advise you on how to go about having uncontrolled sex. Books will be written on it and it will be a hot topic. Friends will correct you if you are not going about the right way. You will appreciate their correction and pick up some tips from them.

THAT is what a positive attitude looks like.

Now imagine a society with an attitude like that toward modesty. That is the society you should be picking up values from. This is not rocket science.

I hope that at least gave you some direction.

You certainly do sure seem to be making all sorts of assumptions about my understanding of modesty. I don’t really know why you are lumping me and Deborah together on this matter, but that point aside, I really don’t have a hard time at all picturing what a modest society would look like. And, guess, what, the particular little society I am talking about does, in fact, as I have previously said, have a positive attitude towards modesty. It encourages modesty and chastity and discourages promiscuous behaviour. But I have already told you that. The reason why I said you did not give a complete answer is because when I said that my society fits the criteria you gave me you still continued to hesitate to say it was a modest society. Which means that there must be more criteria that you have not told me. Either the criteria you gave me were sufficient or they weren’t.

 

[Debora123]

Oh but I have. A society contains values of modesty if its attitude toward modesty is positive.

Now you and Deborah123 seem to have the same problem of not being able to comprehend what a “positive attitude toward modesty” might even mean. Since you are young and probably have never experienced such a culture where you grew up, it can certainly be hard to even know what it means.

So to explain with something else, think of a society you state as having an encouraging attitude unbridled sex. You will see it portrayed in media. You will see those who do not buy in to the idea as being backward, outcasts or deviants. Your parents and friends will advise you on how to go about having uncontrolled sex. Books will be written on it and it will be a hot topic. Friends will correct you if you are not going about the right way. You will appreciate their correction and pick up some tips from them. Imagine a society that has been like this for thousand of years. They will be experts on how to have and foster uncontrolled sex.

THAT is what a positive attitude looks like and what it can result in.

Now imagine a society with an attitude like that toward modesty. That is the society you should be picking up values from. This is not rocket science.

I hope that at least gave you some direction as you try to make sense of this very foreign sounding concept that I seem to have introduced you to.

Hi.

I’m not arguing what is and is not modest right now. Right now I’m simply asking you to name a society or city or whatever that you consider to have the standard of modesty that we should all follow.