Spain's new cardinal says homosexuality a 'defect'

[LisaA]

I know. I merely seconded your motion.
Yes, the secular line is “God doesn’t make junk” The Catholic line is SSA is a defect. There is a world of difference between the two.I am not sure why you are still having a problem. Do you somehow still think I am arguing against you, or against Catholic teaching?

The snarky reply that you got from the poster reflected her hurt feelings where she thinks she is being persecuted in that Catholics want homosexuality to be made illegal.
I have been merely pointing out in a dispassionate manner that that is not where the disagreement lies.

You really are confused. You still don’t seem to be grasping that I have been laying out two different arguments. The two different arguments of course contradict each other.
This is where the disagreement lies between Catholic teaching and the world of the left. It does not lie in the idea that Catholics or Catholic teachings want to re-criminalize homosexuality, as the poster had(snarkily) suggested.

Secular teaching believes that religious teaching onn sex is both wrong and harmful. Secularist believe that Catholic teaching is ergo evil. They do not seek to argue, therefore, but seek to expunge (traditional)Christianity from society altogether

I did not state my faith. That is what unlisted means. People who think that their sexuality is normal and perfect will see the word as a pejorative whether the noun is ‘defect’ or ‘disorder.’ There is no politically correct way to get around that.
Catholic teaching does not see the homosexual as evil though. It sees homosexual attraction as something that brings pain and hardship into a persons life, even eternally so.

Look I do not think we disagree on philosophy but surely you see the internal inconsistency of SECULARISTS talking about “God don’t make no junk” which is clearly a religious approach. They might say nature doesn’t make junk or defects or that since defects occur in nature they are therefore normal. But the reference to God makes no sense if you are talking about a secular argument. Maybe some use the phrase but it seems to be both contradictory and quite silly.

You’re right the word disordered is misunderstood but I think it’s really applicable IF you understand the word “ordered” in the biological context.

As to the secular approach to religious teaching, maybe it was a typo but your post said that secular authorities do NOT discourage religious teaching on sexual matters when in fact your post above is correct, they do discourage the religious approach to sex education or sexuality.

I would just love to understand why the secularists who claim to base their worldview on science simply ignore biology when it comes to same sex attraction. Now my parents were militant atheists but they both had PhD’s in biology (college profs) and I recall hearing from early on that homosexuality is by definition an unnatural behavior from a biological basis. While they didn’t realize it, they were actually speaking from a Catholic perspective regarding how we are “ordered” by biology to function in a particular way as a mammal. A male mammal is ordered to mate with female mammals…that’s how more little mammals are made and the species survives…But tell that to a militant gay person and he simply ignores biology for his heartfelt (but IMO self destructive) emotions and desires.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

We go round and round in circles and jockey for position on the subject and it is really not as convoluted as one might make it seem. Homosexuality that is acted upon has been abhorrent and viewed as at the very least disordered (say abomination or gravely sinful in biblical view) for millennia. The modern case for making SSA (as it is often referred to) as a viable lifestyle to be proudly declared, lived and embraced–together with a push to change laws and societal norms of thousands of years–is a recent phenomenon in human history (spanning back to the 1970s, but with its nascent work being performed in the 1950s, with the Sixties in between). It is no surprise this movement has begun in the USA with its constitutional principles and the majority of the nation, from a historical perspective, having been molded by the Protestant Revolution and the “age of reason”. This has led to an impulse right out of the Manifest Destiny of two centuries ago–every man is his own pope, with God-given rights of liberty to freely pursue happiness as he says it for himself.

And so, it does not take long to jump into sexual mores and the privacy issue. Once found by Justice Blackmun in Roe v. Wade as implicit in the US Constitution, that made it (the right to privacy) implicit in the bedroom. Judge not for ye stand to be judged, right? Well, don’t judge or criticize me for how I want to live my life! I will live as I please and you have no right–indeed, you are morally wrong and bigoted to suggest otherwise–to view me as unequal in status to that which has been accepted as morally, religiously, politically and socially proper and normal for millennia. As long as I am not hurting anyone, I am free to live this way, proclaim it and show it publicly and am entitled to have a family like anyone else–it’s the American way! Oh, and by the way, I was born this way so acting out on my desires is God-given and therefore not sinful. The active homosexual is every bit as normal and properly ordered as the heterosexual. Every man and woman has a right to privacy, we are told, therefore, there is a right to sexual intimacy. God made us for sexual intimacy to become more fully human and to deny me my private right to be intimate with whom I wish–and to be married just like everyone else–is hateful, bigoted and un-American.

This is how I see the evolution of this dilemma. I honestly think the societal tide has changed and now we must prepare ourselves how to deal with the homosexual age.

Love this explanation. I’ve just not understood why and how a sex practice has been elevated to godlike status. But as you said, the individualism, the “Manifest Destiny” philosophy and the “we’re not hurting anyone” with our sex, drugs, rock n roll focused lives has taken over. Further the obsession with “not judging others” which is completely misunderstood by both religious and secular people has prevented rational thought from invading when truly bizarre activities, considered abnormal by every society for thousands of years have suddenly been declared equivalent to societal norms of western civilization. The other false god, that of privacy, has allowed not only aberrant sexual practices to be made public, even celebrated, and even worse has allowed millions of men and women to PRIVATELY kill their own children.

Ancient Rome…here we come!

Lisa

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

No I was responding to another poster who made a snarky comment that those who believe homosexuality is disordered and not equivalent to heterosexual relationships want a return to sodomy laws. As I said, this is an answer in search of a question and a frequent method to shut down rational discussion.



SECULAR “modern” thinking refers to “God doesn’t make junk.” God is not a part of secular thinking. Ironically though the pro homosexual activists toss biology out the window when making reference to “born this way” or “I’m perfect the way I am…”

Huh?

…

Now I’m really confused. You seem to contradict yourself. As to “get your pleasure” that isn’t the focus of Catholic teaching regarding sexuality. The reference is that sexual expression is limited to marriage and has both procreative and unitive aspects. It’s not just “getting your rocks off…” in a religiously acceptable way.

And secular teaching FAVORS the repression of religious teaching with respect to these issues. It would be lovely if secularists were as respectful of religious teaching on sexuality but they are not.

As to the reference to your stated faith, it’s that most people do not understand the word “disordered” and thus not being Catholic, I thought you might have misinterpreted the word as being inordinately negative or pejorative. When I read it, I see biology permeating the entire philosophy. Who knew that Catholics didn’t reject science

Sorry do not recall the post. I will search for it.

OK. I think we still are not connecting regarding secular theories on homosexuality. I see them as feelings based relativism so common in modern thought and on the media. I am old enough to recall the “If it feels good do it…” from the 60s and frankly when I was young and stupid I was young and stupid. Sounded good to me!

But as St Paul said, when I was a child I spoke as a child…I have since put away childish things. I just wish our culture and our media would GROW UP. Feelings are not a good way to make important decisions regarding your life or that of others. As our beloved Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, noted relativism is the cause of much evil in this world.

Lisa

That isn’t at all what I was saying, I was replying to a statement about judicial fiat.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of an atheist sayin “God doesn’t make junk” usually it is either a mainline Protestant or cafeteria Catholic saying homosexuality is okay or a fundamentalist saying it as apparent proof for no one being born gay.

Most Catholics don’t get the meaning either, I often see conservative Catholics argue that gay sex is intrinsically disordered whereas fornication is “disordered, but not intrinsically so” (which contradicts Aquinas and 1750-1756 of the CCC).

Isn’t it terrible that those darn heterosexuals ruined the sexual mores of the US?

 

[LisaA]

That isn’t at all what I was saying, I was replying to a statement about judicial fiat.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of an atheist sayin “God doesn’t make junk” usually it is either a mainline Protestant or cafeteria Catholic saying homosexuality is okay or a fundamentalist saying it as apparent proof for no one being born gay.

Most Catholics don’t get the meaning either, I often see conservative Catholics argue that gay sex is intrinsically disordered whereas fornication is “disordered, but not intrinsically so” (which contradicts Aquinas and 1750-1756 of the CCC).

Isn’t it terrible that those darn heterosexuals ruined the sexual mores of the US?

I believe Darryl mentioned the “God don’t make no junk” meme. So my response with with respect to his characterization of this statement as from the secular. It seems to contradict most secular thought that makes no reference to God, to Creation or to our relationship as one of God’s creations.

While I don’t think “cafeteria” Catholics are usually well catechized regarding the Church’s teaching on Same Sex Attraction, homosexual acts and fornication while both disordered are not equivalent. Homosexual acts are not only disordered, “depraved” by Biblical standards they are by definition NEVER open to life. Fornication while a mortal sin, could be open to life depending on the circumstances. I think the attempts to make homosexual activity equivalent to every other sexual sin is a lame attempt to justify something that has so many related negative consequences in Biblical, biological and/or sociological basis.

I have no idea what point you are making with your last comment so I’ll just add it to the snark meter.

Lisa

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I believe Darryl mentioned the “God don’t make no junk” meme. So my response with with respect to his characterization of this statement as from the secular. It seems to contradict most secular thought that makes no reference to God, to Creation or to our relationship as one of God’s creations.

While I don’t think “cafeteria” Catholics are usually well catechized regarding the Church’s teaching on Same Sex Attraction, homosexual acts and fornication while both disordered are not equivalent. Homosexual acts are not only disordered, “depraved” by Biblical standards they are by definition NEVER open to life. Fornication while a mortal sin, could be open to life depending on the circumstances. I think the attempts to make homosexual activity equivalent to every other sexual sin is a lame attempt to justify something that has so many related negative consequences in Biblical, biological and/or sociological basis.

I have no idea what point you are making with your last comment so I’ll just add it to the snark meter.

Lisa

Aquinas said “all sex between men and women outside marriage is intrinsically disordered”.

 

[LisaA]

Aquinas said “all sex between men and women outside marriage is intrinsically disordered”.

OK…and your point is what? I checked the CCC regarding homosexual acts and chastity as well as sexuality within marriage and sexual sins. There was no equivalence noted but if that Aquinas quote serves some purpose take it and run. Good timing given yesterday was “his” big day right?
Lisa

 

[Catolico65]

Aquinas said “all sex between men and women outside marriage is intrinsically disordered”.

The Bible tells us the cause of homosexual desires is personal arrogance and corruption which has the penalty of being turned over to perverse desires:

Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.

Notwithstanding, young impressionable persons can be convinced via the diabolic tool of suggestion and sexual molestation that they are not the way God had created them, thus causing them to be confused about their sexuality, such as was in my case.

Unfortunately, now we have many Christians and Catholics that reject this verse in the Bible and further cause doubt among young persons suffering from SSA about the permanence of their condition. We are certainly in the final times. God bless people like this Spanish Cardinal for his willingness to speak the truth.

 

[LisaA]

The Bible tells us the cause of homosexual desires is personal arrogance and corruption which has the penalty of being turned over to perverse desires:

Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.

Notwithstanding, young impressionable persons can be convinced via the diabolic tool of suggestion and sexual molestation that they are not the way God had created them, thus causing them to be confused about their sexuality, such as was in my case.

Unfortunately, now we have many Christians and Catholics that reject this verse in the Bible and further cause doubt among young persons suffering from SSA about the permanence of their condition. We are certainly in the final times. God bless people like this Spanish Cardinal for his willingness to speak the truth.

I’ve appreciated your thoughtful posts, particularly your comments about how someone’s mind,heart and body can be taken over by suggestion,pressure, desire to be loved, and admired. Occasionally it takes the form of molestation or preying upon a young person. That society seems to be increasingly accepting of homosexuality as normal, if not particularly laudatory behavior, those who are snared by this lifestyle in some fashion have even more difficulty escaping. At the time homosexuality, particularly when it involved the using of young people for sexual satisfaction was considered disgusting and in most cases illegal, it would be easier for an innocent victim to find support to get out. Unfortunately you can see even here on CAF Catholics who decry any sort of therapy, counselling or a determination not to remain in the gay lifestyle. One poster called reparative therapy “torture” and “cruel.” In some cases the person is confused or truly wants out and as you noted, the more accepted public and openly even celebrated these activities become the more difficult to leave.

I suspect it’s intended.

I recall when a nationally known advocate for homeless teens was outed as a sexual predator,the boys whom he violated were incredibly confused, distraught and some believed they MUST be homosexual else M.S would not have approached them. In reality they were desperate, vulnerable children who latched onto perhaps the first adult male who showed them any attention. Homosexuality is not just the nice gay couple drinking a latte and reading the Times at Starbucks. There is a seamy underside to this world just as with other sexual sins. Just the other sexual sins are not being “normalized” if not celebrated by the Beltway and Hollywood elites.

I hope you have been able to find peace and healing.

LIsa

 

[Catolico65]

I’ve appreciated your thoughtful posts, particularly your comments about how someone’s mind,heart and body can be taken over by suggestion,pressure, desire to be loved, and admired. Occasionally it takes the form of molestation or preying upon a young person. That society seems to be increasingly accepting of homosexuality as normal, if not particularly laudatory behavior, those who are snared by this lifestyle in some fashion have even more difficulty escaping. At the time homosexuality, particularly when it involved the using of young people for sexual satisfaction was considered disgusting and in most cases illegal, it would be easier for an innocent victim to find support to get out. Unfortunately you can see even here on CAF Catholics who decry any sort of therapy, counselling or a determination not to remain in the gay lifestyle. One poster called reparative therapy “torture” and “cruel.” In some cases the person is confused or truly wants out and as you noted, the more accepted public and openly even celebrated these activities become the more difficult to leave.

I suspect it’s intended.

I recall when a nationally known advocate for homeless teens was outed as a sexual predator,the boys whom he violated were incredibly confused, distraught and some believed they MUST be homosexual else M.S would not have approached them. In reality they were desperate, vulnerable children who latched onto perhaps the first adult male who showed them any attention. Homosexuality is not just the nice gay couple drinking a latte and reading the Times at Starbucks. There is a seamy underside to this world just as with other sexual sins. Just the other sexual sins are not being “normalized” if not celebrated by the Beltway and Hollywood elites.

I hope you have been able to find peace and healing.

LIsa

The great problem that I see is that so many Christians fight to support that SSA is pre-ordained, ie biological, based on the theory that:

1. person suffering from SSA knows it is not their fault, thus giving them comfort in their condition.
2. God can forgive people even if He created/designed them to sin.

without realizing:

1. the false logic that people can be created by God to have SSA due to the conflict of the definition of sin.
2. that persons suffering from SSA gain lasting comfort knowing “is not their fault” (only temporal).
3. that promoting the theory SSA is pre-ordained, ie biological, actually prohibits people from being healed because they feel no need to repent for the cause of SSA thus prolonging their condition of suffering unnecessarily.

Honestly, I expect many in the aforementioned camp would really like to see the CC embrace homosexuality like so many other Christian religions and as such feel it is necessary to push their errant theories. It is worth mentioning that it is of no small coincidence that these are the main arguments of the gay lobby.

For those Christians that believe establishing that the origin of SSA is not important based on the fact that God can forgive anything. My question then is if God can forgive anything(which He can) why do we need to tell people that SSA is not their fault when they can be forgiven anyway??? This makes absolutely zero sense and in fact is a form of justification that will never help the person have a mind at ease.

Finally, regarding the healing of people, they should first know that God can of course forgive anything and everyone struggles with thoughts and tendencies that are not good, natural and otherwise.

As far as my own condition, I have been healed of SSA but I still struggle with lust but I am the only one responsible for that. Paz.

 

[StudentMI]

The Bible tells us the cause of homosexual desires is personal arrogance and corruption which has the penalty of being turned over to perverse desires:

Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.

Notwithstanding, young impressionable persons can be convinced via the diabolic tool of suggestion and sexual molestation that they are not the way God had created them, thus causing them to be confused about their sexuality, such as was in my case.

Unfortunately, now we have many Christians and Catholics that reject this verse in the Bible and further cause doubt among young persons suffering from SSA about the permanence of their condition. We are certainly in the final times. God bless people like this Spanish Cardinal for his willingness to speak the truth.

Both the Catechism and the CDF cite that verse as regarding homosexual actions, not desires. You are stating that homosexual desires are a result of personal sin, which the Church does not say. Even Pope Francis has stated

The problem is not having this tendency, no, we must be brothers and sisters to one another, and there is this one and there is that one.

vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/speeches/2013/july/documents/papa-francesco_20130728_gmg-conferenza-stampa_en.html

This is what the Church says. Homosexual desires are not the result of personal sin or fault, and the person with homosexual desires is not sinning by having such desires. This is not a matter of personal interpretation.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

OK…and your point is what? I checked the CCC regarding homosexual acts and chastity as well as sexuality within marriage and sexual sins. There was no equivalence noted but if that Aquinas quote serves some purpose take it and run. Good timing given yesterday was “his” big day right?
Lisa

Both “homosexual acts” and fornication are intrinsically disordered action thus it is appropriate to compare the form to the latter instead of rape, murder, child molestation and things of that nature.

The Bible tells us the cause of homosexual desires is personal arrogance and corruption which has the penalty of being turned over to perverse desires:

Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.

Notwithstanding, young impressionable persons can be convinced via the diabolic tool of suggestion and sexual molestation that they are not the way God had created them, thus causing them to be confused about their sexuality, such as was in my case.

Unfortunately, now we have many Christians and Catholics that reject this verse in the Bible and further cause doubt among young persons suffering from SSA about the permanence of their condition. We are certainly in the final times. God bless people like this Spanish Cardinal for his willingness to speak the truth.

So then why does the Church claim it doesn’t know the origin of the homosexual inclination? Why does it not magically go away in people who are chaste and humble? Why was it a constant thorn for Henri Nouwen?

I’ve appreciated your thoughtful posts, particularly your comments about how someone’s mind,heart and body can be taken over by suggestion,pressure, desire to be loved, and admired. Occasionally it takes the form of molestation or preying upon a young person. That society seems to be increasingly accepting of homosexuality as normal, if not particularly laudatory behavior, those who are snared by this lifestyle in some fashion have even more difficulty escaping. At the time homosexuality, particularly when it involved the using of young people for sexual satisfaction was considered disgusting and in most cases illegal, it would be easier for an innocent victim to find support to get out. Unfortunately you can see even here on CAF Catholics who decry any sort of therapy, counselling or a determination not to remain in the gay lifestyle. One poster called reparative therapy “torture” and “cruel.” In some cases the person is confused or truly wants out and as you noted, the more accepted public and openly even celebrated these activities become the more difficult to leave.

I suspect it’s intended.

I recall when a nationally known advocate for homeless teens was outed as a sexual predator,the boys whom he violated were incredibly confused, distraught and some believed they MUST be homosexual else M.S would not have approached them. In reality they were desperate, vulnerable children who latched onto perhaps the first adult male who showed them any attention. Homosexuality is not just the nice gay couple drinking a latte and reading the Times at Starbucks. There is a seamy underside to this world just as with other sexual sins. Just the other sexual sins are not being “normalized” if not celebrated by the Beltway and Hollywood elites.

I hope you have been able to find peace and healing.

LIsa

Some gay people exploit children, so do some straight people, what is your point?

The great problem that I see is that so many Christians fight to support that SSA is pre-ordained, ie biological, based on the theory that:

1. person suffering from SSA knows it is not their fault, thus giving them comfort in their condition.
2. God can forgive people even if He created/designed them to sin.

without realizing:

1. the false logic that people can be created by God to have SSA due to the conflict of the definition of sin.
2. that persons suffering from SSA gain lasting comfort knowing “is not their fault” (only temporal).
3. that promoting the theory SSA is pre-ordained, ie biological, actually prohibits people from being healed because they feel no need to repent for the cause of SSA thus prolonging their condition of suffering unnecessarily.

Honestly, I expect many in the aforementioned camp would really like to see the CC embrace homosexuality like so many other Christian religions and as such feel it is necessary to push their errant theories. It is worth mentioning that it is of no small coincidence that these are the main arguments of the gay lobby.

For those Christians that believe establishing that the origin of SSA is not important based on the fact that God can forgive anything. My question then is if God can forgive anything(which He can) why do we need to tell people that SSA is not their fault when they can be forgiven anyway??? This makes absolutely zero sense and in fact is a form of justification that will never help the person have a mind at ease.

Finally, regarding the healing of people, they should first know that God can of course forgive anything and everyone struggles with thoughts and tendencies that are not good, natural and otherwise.

As far as my own condition, I have been healed of SSA but I still struggle with lust but I am the only one responsible for that. Paz.

1. People are inclined to all sorts of sins as a result of original sin.
2. Is it better that people go into reparative therapy and blame their fathers or think they did something wrong and try and try and fail to make themselves “better”?
3. That’s just your eisegesis

 

[LisaA]

Both the Catechism and the CDF cite that verse as regarding homosexual actions, not desires. You are stating that homosexual desires are a result of personal sin, which the Church does not say. Even Pope Francis has stated

vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/speeches/2013/july/documents/papa-francesco_20130728_gmg-conferenza-stampa_en.html

This is what the Church says. Homosexual desires are not the result of personal sin or fault, and the person with homosexual desires is not sinning by having such desires. This is not a matter of personal interpretation.

I didn’t get the interpretation that the focus was on the sinful desires but that the desires lead to homosexual ACTS which are sinful. If the culture ignores or as in our country extolls the virtues of being openly homosexual (tell me gay pride parades are only about desires not acts?) those who are suffering from SSA are more easily led into this world and it becomes more difficult to find support to fight the inclinations and stop engaging in the activity. Social pressure, in either direction is extremely powerful. Look at how the attitude toward smoking has changed our attitude toward this self destructive habit?

When an impressionable and confused child, seeking attention and approval from adults, hears from the culture and from those in his circle that there is nothing wrong with either the desires or acting upon them, it becomes much easier to fall into sin.

I think the Cardinal is not only accurate but he is trying to fight the culture that claims this disordered and unhealthy activity IS not normal or anything God wants for His children
Lisa

 

[LisaA]

Both “homosexual acts” and fornication are intrinsically disordered action thus it is appropriate to compare the form to the latter instead of rape, murder, child molestation and things of that nature.

So then why does the Church claim it doesn’t know the origin of the homosexual inclination? Why does it not magically go away in people who are chaste and humble? Why was it a constant thorn for Henri Nouwen?

Some gay people exploit children, so do some straight people, what is your point?

1. People are inclined to all sorts of sins as a result of original sin.
2. Is it better that people go into reparative therapy and blame their fathers or think they did something wrong and try and try and fail to make themselves “better”?
3. That’s just your eisegesis

A litany of strawmen set ablaze. Who was claiming homosexual acts were the equivalent of rape or murder? Who claimed homosexual desires magically went away when people are chaste and humble? The point of mentioning the story of the homeless advocate using his young charges as prostitutes was that those boys thought they WERE homosexuals because they had been exploited. In reality the boys probably were just vulnerable children who were desperate for a warm place to sleep and some attention. Being exploited by predatory homosexuals does not make one homosexual does it?

I have no idea what you mean by #2. Assume it’s another snark deposit into the bank. People ARE inclined towards all kinds of sins. The Church, unlike society, recognizes these inclinations and offers salvation. It’s up to us to take it.

Lisa