Spain's stolen babies and the families who lived a lie

[Scalia]

Say it aint so…

The scandal is closely linked to the Catholic Church, which under Franco assumed a prominent role in Spain’s social services including hospitals, schools and children’s homes.

bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15335899

 

[purplesunshine]

This is a societal problem being blamed on the Catholic Church.

Society, up until the 70’s believed that some people were less worthy of raising a child. Even now on adoption threads on this VERY board some people have suggested it’d be better for a child to be taken from a single parent.

It’s horrible to think about

 

[Scalia]

This is a societal problem being blamed on the Catholic Church.

Society, up until the 70’s believed that some people were less worthy of raising a child. Even now on adoption threads on this VERY board some people have suggested it’d be better for a child to be taken from a single parent.

It’s horrible to think about

Was the Church complicit?

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Was the Church complicit?

I hope not a single bishop, priest, or nun had anything to do with this monstrous horror. The Church cannot be associated with such crimes in any way else it will never regain support in modern Spain.

 

[PodunkMommy]

I don’t quite understand why after Franco was gone why this kept going on. Why wasn’t something done? It shocks me that in 1970 this woman had her baby, was told he was dead, and then the baby was adopted out to another family. I know human trafficking is going on all the time but it is so barbaric. We are in the twentieth centure, not the dark ages.

I pray for all these people, may they find peace.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I hope not a single bishop, priest, or nun had anything to do with this monstrous horror. The Church cannot be associated with such crimes in any way else it will never regain support in modern Spain.

Wait a minute, Rich.

Let’s take an American example: Father Roy Borgeois. The one who has spent years arguing for women’s ordination.

So, is “The Catholic Church” arguing for women’s ordination because ONE PRIEST is arguing? Heck no. You can’t even say the U.S. BISHOPS are doing so, or “all American priests” based on the actions of one priest.

So. Let’s suppose that Father Juan, Sister Solange, or Bishop Bernardo ‘were involved’. Maybe they thought they were doing the right thing. Do you really think they even bothered to call Vatican Spiri-220 to say, “Oh by the way, Pope Paul VI, a bunch of us over in Spain are involved in lies and coverups about babies, that’s all right with you folks, isn’t it?”

Even if every single Bishop in Spain in 1972 was guilty of crass stupidity or even moral turpitude of the highest degree, that doesn’t make THE CATHOLIC CHURCH guilty. Bishops are not infallible. They can do the wrong thing, for the wrong reason, just as easily as you and I can. . .or they can be honestly mistaken and do the wrong thing for what they think is a GOOD reason --just as you and I can. And that again may make them guilty of wrongdoing but it sure doesn’t make THE CATHOLIC CHURCH guilty.

 

[The_Scott]

Even if every single Bishop in Spain in 1972 was guilty of crass stupidity or even moral turpitude of the highest degree, that doesn’t make THE CATHOLIC CHURCH guilty.

Unfortunately, a vast majority will generalize like this. It’s human nature to do that - doesn’t make it right, though.

To many people in this materialistic world, the Catholic Church is defined by the moral actions of its members.

Peace.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Even if every single Bishop in Spain in 1972 was guilty of crass stupidity or even moral turpitude of the highest degree, that doesn’t make THE CATHOLIC CHURCH guilty. Bishops are not infallible. They can do the wrong thing, for the wrong reason, just as easily as you and I can. . .or they can be honestly mistaken and do the wrong thing for what they think is a GOOD reason --just as you and I can. And that again may make them guilty of wrongdoing but it sure doesn’t make THE CATHOLIC CHURCH guilty.

Sorry. I meant the Church in Spain, not the Catholic Church as a whole.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Sorry. I meant the Church in Spain, not the Catholic Church as a whole.

And even there, hon, it wouldn’t even be “The Catholic Church in Spain.” It would be, perhaps, “X bishops in the Church in Spain from year X to X.” The Catholic Church in Spain has far more members in its long history than a few bishops in a handful of years. Especially when you stop to think that deliberate malice and falsification with the intent to destroy lives is probably NOT what the majority of the people involved thought they were doing. Hindsight is always 20/20 but we don’t know what those involved may have been told, or thought. . .so no, we can’t ‘judge’ them until or unless we do know and it is indeed proven from their own lips that this was done with deliberate evil intent.

I mean, the bishops were administering entire dioceses. How likely is it that they were approached in each and every case and ‘told’ all the facts? Blessed Pope John Paul II was a bishop before he was Pope, don’t you think that some priests under him may have done wrong things and never told him? He was NOT going to know every single event that took place in his diocese while he was bishop, and what HE DID KNOW was likely what was told to him by his aides because he couldn’t BE everywhere. So if people lied to him as bishop, and told him by signing this paper about "helping children to be adopted by good citizens’, say, he was helping his priests and nuns to do works of charity which had a long (and good) history, and everybody was nodding their heads, he might have signed it --and so might those bishops in Spain!

I just get so tired of people (not you Rich) who automatically assume the worst and who assign only the most MALICIOUS intent to a given deed, as though “stolen babies, oh no, of COURSE this was done by the EBIL CHURCH to hurt families and probably gain money on the side for their campaign to rule the world and naturally the Pope and bishops on down knew ALL about it from the start blah blah blah.”

Then they hyperventilate all over and the groups come out:
Group A: WHat else do you expect from the Whore of Babylon.
Group B: Wah, maybe our Protestant friends are right, I think I’ll leave Catholicism since I see all the evil people there and the higher ups knew about it. Corruption!
Group C: I’ll stay in the Church but this just convinces me even more we need married priests, women priests, and a whole new outlook. Throw out ALL the bishops and the Pope and start over with 12 men and a woman–and put the WOMAN in charge!
Group D: (Sigh. If I even try to speak rationally about this I’ll be called every name in the book. I’ll just lurk until things look safer.)

 

[Just_Lurking]

Especially when you stop to think that deliberate malice and falsification with the intent to destroy lives is probably NOT what the majority of the people involved thought they were doing.

This reminds me of the Steven Weinberg quote: “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

 

[Tantum_ergo]

This reminds me of the Steven Weinberg quote: “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

REALLY? I find that quote asinine, personally. Good people do ‘evil things’ all the time and for a variety of reasons. To blanket all of them under the mantle of ‘religion’ as though ONLY religion could ‘make’ good people do evil to me reveals the author is blindingly ignorant of the nature of good, evil, AND religion.

So what’s his ‘reason’ for evil people doing good things, and please don’t even try to tell us that evil people can never do anything ‘good.’ Anti-religion?

 

[Just_Lurking]

REALLY? I find that quote asinine, personally. Good people do ‘evil things’ all the time and for a variety of reasons. To blanket all of them under the mantle of ‘religion’ as though ONLY religion could ‘make’ good people do evil to me reveals the author is blindingly ignorant of the nature of good, evil, AND religion.

In this case, religion. In general, my feeling is that good people do evil things when they think they are serving a “higher purpose.” Patriotism is another example of something that can make a good person do an evil thing and yet think their action is moral or noble.

So what’s his ‘reason’ for evil people doing good things, and please don’t even try to tell us that evil people can never do anything ‘good.’ Anti-religion?

I don’t think this works in the other direction. What would a “lower purpose” be?

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

And even there, hon, it wouldn’t even be “The Catholic Church in Spain.” It would be, perhaps, “X bishops in the Church in Spain from year X to X.” The Catholic Church in Spain has far more members in its long history than a few bishops in a handful of years.

I should have said, “the Catholic Church in Spain during Franco’s regime and afterwards,” which is the same as your “from year X to X.” Those clergymen and religious and laity who did those things ought to have known better. It doesn’t help the Church there in this era of a socialist government and growing secularism in Spain to provide a belated apology.

 

[Scalia]

Wait a minute, Rich.

Let’s take an American example: Father Roy Borgeois. The one who has spent years arguing for women’s ordination.

So, is “The Catholic Church” arguing for women’s ordination because ONE PRIEST is arguing? Heck no. You can’t even say the U.S. BISHOPS are doing so, or “all American priests” based on the actions of one priest.

So. Let’s suppose that Father Juan, Sister Solange, or Bishop Bernardo ‘were involved’. Maybe they thought they were doing the right thing. Do you really think they even bothered to call Vatican Spiri-220 to say, “Oh by the way, Pope Paul VI, a bunch of us over in Spain are involved in lies and coverups about babies, that’s all right with you folks, isn’t it?”

Even if every single Bishop in Spain in 1972 was guilty of crass stupidity or even moral turpitude of the highest degree, that doesn’t make THE CATHOLIC CHURCH guilty. Bishops are not infallible. They can do the wrong thing, for the wrong reason, just as easily as you and I can. . .or they can be honestly mistaken and do the wrong thing for what they think is a GOOD reason --just as you and I can. And that again may make them guilty of wrongdoing but it sure doesn’t make THE CATHOLIC CHURCH guilty.

I agree with everything you say, in an academic sense. However, if true, the harm caused by such actions is enormous. Candidly, this is as shocking to me as the sex abuse scandals.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I agree with everything you say, in an academic sense. However, if true, the harm caused by such actions is enormous. Candidly, this is as shocking to me as the sex abuse scandals.

Well, I will reserve judgment until a lot more is actually known. While I find the sex abuse shocking, especially in the few U.S. cases and the sadly many more ‘outside U.S.’ cases where that took place with people actually KNOWING about things like mandated reporting and that sex abuse (pedophilia) is NOT curable --this was NOT the case in the 50s, 60s, 70s and even 80s-- I find it equally shocking that such a high number of educators and parents are guilty of such abuses in today’s society. I find prostitution shocking, I find the vulgarization of society shocking.

But the real harm is not that an individual --be he priest, ‘daddy’, teacher, doctor, lawyer, or indian chief–has committed abuses or crimes.

The real harm is that society has both ‘idolized’ "The Catholic Church’ by insisting its members, especially clergy, be held to a standard of IMPECCABILITY which no other organization or person is held to. . .

and DEMONIZED the Church by acting as though sex sins especially (but everything else ultimately) is ONLY localized to “The Catholic Church”.

There’s the real harm–instead of addressing the actual wrongs of individuals as would be the case in ANY OTHER ORGANIZATION or with ANY OTHER INDIVIDUAL, “The Catholic Church” is tarred and feathered in a hysterical, vicious way both by those who are on the ‘outside’ hating her and those on the inside who SHOULD BE, but are not, Loving her.

And the more this is spread in the MSM, the more it will be accepted as ‘truth’ even when much of it can be proven to be outright lies.

Ask the average citizen of the UK if Richard III was a mass murderer. Most likely he’ll say, “oh yes” even though historians have agreed for CENTURIES that he was not. He was the victim of a violent Tudor ‘smear’ campaign and due to that campaign from which Shakespeare took his sources, ‘popular media’ (in the play therein) has established him as the villian he emphatically was not. Despite all the proof that is readily available, John Bull public (and us across the pond most often) prefers to parrot the “EVERYBODY KNOWS” lies and distortions as truth.

What we need to do is fight to let the whole truth come out. Yes, abuses happened but NO they were not and are not what the media has come to paint them, and to paint the Church and its teachings, as.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Is it just the Pope who is considered infallible?
(neither bishopsn or priests nor anyone else, right?)

Actually the charism of infallibility is not that simple.

The Pope SPEAKS infallibly when he speaks ex cathedra. (This does not happen very often in history). And it is regarding matters of faith and morals. IOW, the Pope is not infallible when it comes to predicting the winner of the World series, or even if he is giving an interview to the local press about, say, economics.

However, the bishops can speak with infallibility as a group regarding the Magesterium. See below from the Catechism.

MORAL LIFE AND THE MAGISTERIUM OF THE CHURCH

[2032](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2032.htm’) The Church, the “pillar and bulwark of the truth,” "has received this solemn command of Christ from the apostles to announce the saving truth."74 "To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order, and to make judgments on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls."75
[2033](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2033.htm’) The Magisterium of the Pastors of the Church in moral matters is ordinarily exercised in catechesis and preaching, with the help of the works of theologians and spiritual authors. Thus from generation to generation, under the aegis and vigilance of the pastors, the “deposit” of Christian moral teaching has been handed on, a deposit composed of a characteristic body of rules, commandments, and virtues proceeding from faith in Christ and animated by charity. Alongside the Creed and the Our Father, the basis for this catechesis has traditionally been the Decalogue which sets out the principles of moral life valid for all men.
2034 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice."76 The *ordinary *and universal *Magisterium *of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for. 2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.77

 

[Wolseley]

Wait a minute, Rich.

Let’s take an American example: Father Roy Borgeois. The one who has spent years arguing for women’s ordination.

So, is “The Catholic Church” arguing for women’s ordination because ONE PRIEST is arguing? Heck no. You can’t even say the U.S. BISHOPS are doing so, or “all American priests” based on the actions of one priest.

So. Let’s suppose that Father Juan, Sister Solange, or Bishop Bernardo ‘were involved’. Maybe they thought they were doing the right thing. Do you really think they even bothered to call Vatican Spiri-220 to say, “Oh by the way, Pope Paul VI, a bunch of us over in Spain are involved in lies and coverups about babies, that’s all right with you folks, isn’t it?”

Even if every single Bishop in Spain in 1972 was guilty of crass stupidity or even moral turpitude of the highest degree, that doesn’t make THE CATHOLIC CHURCH guilty. Bishops are not infallible. They can do the wrong thing, for the wrong reason, just as easily as you and I can. . .or they can be honestly mistaken and do the wrong thing for what they think is a GOOD reason --just as you and I can. And that again may make them guilty of wrongdoing but it sure doesn’t make THE CATHOLIC CHURCH guilty.

Precisely.

Unfortunately, a vast majority will generalize like this. It’s human nature to do that - doesn’t make it right, though.

To many people in this materialistic world, the Catholic Church is defined by the moral actions of its members.

Peace.

Rest assured that those who let the media do their thinking for them will be calling for the Pope’s head—again. Never mind the facts, “ABC News tole me whut to think, and I bleeve 'em!”

The Catholic Church often gets the blame for the Spanish Inquisition, too; but it was one renegade bishop in collusion with the Spanish crown, not the Church as a whole.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

While I find the sex abuse shocking I find it equally shocking I find prostitution shocking, I find the vulgarization of society shocking.
and distortions as truth.

Not all are as easily shocked.

What we need to do is fight to let the whole truth come out. Yes, abuses happened but NO they were not and are not what the media has come to paint them, and to paint the Church and its teachings, as.

I think the media has done a pretty good job at exposing what had been going on in the United States. I think pederasty an abuse and can’t see how it can be sugar-coated (“not what the media has come to paint them”), whether done by a male public school teacher, a Baptist minister or a Catholic priest.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Not all are as easily shocked.

I think the media has done a pretty good job at exposing what had been going on in the United States. I think pederasty an abuse and can’t see how it can be sugar-coated (“not what the media has come to paint them”), whether done by a male public school teacher, a Baptist minister or a Catholic priest.

Of course it’s an abuse, Rich. But how many people believe that such abuse goes on ‘in families?’ How many believe it goes on in schools? How many believe it goes on at a synagogue, or at the local Protestant church?

Very few.

How many believe it goes on in “The Catholic Church” among virtually every single priest?

A LOT.

How many, hearing of such abuse among a family, would ‘blame the victim’ in some way, either for ‘not coming forth right away’, or for being a ‘willing’ participant? You’ll be sick when I tell you this, but a LOT of people will blame the victim, or blame the INNOCENT parent for somehow not being clairvoyant, or for somehow being the cause because ‘if the husband got what he needed from the wife he wouldn’t have abused.’

A LOT believe this, Rich.

How many, hearing of a teacher abusing in the schools, will blame the families of the students, will blame the (usually female) students for being ‘tarts’, will manage to excuse the (usually MARRIED TEACHER) on the basis of again the wife not being ‘sufficient’ or, if a male married teacher on a male student, will blame again the wife for not realizing her husband was ‘gay’ and will fulminate on the unfairness of society for not letting this man live his ‘own life’ and DRIVING him to this.

A lot.

But. . .the Catholic Church? It’s so ‘evil’, coverup is endemic, it is all malicious, and it’s all because the creeps don’t get WIMMIN!

The disconnect between the treatment of abuse and abusers outside the Catholic clergy is so staggering, yet people will look you straight in the eye and claim that even though what they claim of the Catholic Church is diametrically opposite to the claims they make about any OTHER individual or institution and the very SAME abuse situation, that they are telling the TRUTH.

It’s like saying gravity exists in Washington D.C. but not in Baltimore. There is not a scintilla of difference that could make gravity ‘exist’ in one city but not in another.

There is not a scintilla of difference that makes sex abuse heinous for one individual or institution, but not for others. . .or which makes the causes to be ‘denial of women’ for ONE institution, but not for any others, or which makes the very same actions by doctors, lawyers, the abusers and the victims all right with ANY INSTITUTION BUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Where, Rich, oh WHERE are the lawyers going after all the school districts in the U.S. where teachers abused (and still abuse) students?

Where are the lawyers going after all the parents who abuse and still abuse their children?

Above all, where are the lawyers going after the doctors and lawyers who advised not just bishops in the Catholic Church, but bishops in the Anglican, and Lutheran, and Methodist Churches, and families, and school officials, the very same ‘so-called’ COVER UP METHODS in the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s? Where ARE they? Why is it ONLY the Catholic priests and bishops being ‘called to account’ for doing what they were TOLD by EXPERTS to do??

If we are going to go after a problem–and sex abuse is a problem–we should be getting to the SOURCE of the problem. And what the MSM is doing with regard to the Church is not helping get to the source, in fact, it is MISDIRECTING all the attention which SHOULD be going to the source of the problem!!!

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Of course it’s an abuse, Rich. But how many people believe that such abuse goes on ‘in families?’ How many believe it goes on in schools? How many believe it goes on at a synagogue, or at the local Protestant church?

Very few.

No. I think there’s far more awareness of the magnitude of the problem, awareness unfortunately that arose out of the publicity surrounding the clerical abuses.

How many believe it goes on in “The Catholic Church” among virtually every single priest?

A LOT.

Among virtually every single priest? Only the wholly uneducated and prejudiced would buy into that IMO.

There is not a scintilla of difference that makes sex abuse heinous for one individual or institution, but not for others

I agree.