Spanish treasure returns to Spain

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“This a victory for Spain and the United States,” lawyer Jose Maria Lancho, who advised the Spanish government in its action against Odyssey, told Reuters.
“For Spain, this sunken ship, this archaeological site, is still a warship and we still have jurisdiction over what has happened to it.”
in.reuters.com/article/2012/02/26/spain-usa-shipwreck-idINDEE81P03120120226

I think the British Museum should be targeted by the government of Egypt and Greece, next. The British and other nations, as well as private collectors should return the cultural works taken from the people whose ancestors made them. This is a very exciting precedent that will hopefully help restore the various cultural treasures looted and pillaged by colonial powers.
 
I think the British Museum should be targeted by the government of Egypt and Greece, next. The British and other nations, as well as private collectors should return the cultural works taken from the people whose ancestors made them. This is a very exciting precedent that will hopefully help restore the various cultural treasures looted and pillaged by colonial powers.
I am not sure what international agreements regulate the return of antiquities. According to the salvage company the ruling is contrary to all established law. At any rate, a ruling by a US judge is unlikely to be respected outside the US.

However, the good news is that many antiquities have been returned to their home country. This has been ongoing for some time, but here are a sample of some instances:

Turkey

Egypt

Peru

I’m pretty sure the British Museum has already been in such returns. However, all these returns seem to be done on a case by case basis, and largely due to pressure from the country of origin.
 
Yes, and the Vatican has returned a few pieces to the Orthodox as well which is very nice.
 
Will Odyssey Marine Exploration, the company which found the ship and recovered its cargo, get any reimbursement for its trouble?

Apparently not yet, as lawsuits are ongoing.
wired.com/threatlevel/2011/01/wikileaks-sunken-treasure/
I have mixed feelings about these modern day “treasure hunters”. Many times they simply keep the treasure they find to sell to museums. Many of them are former scientists who have foregone academia to pursue profit. Not very noble.
 
I have mixed feelings about these modern day “treasure hunters”. Many times they simply keep the treasure they find to sell to museums. Many of them are former scientists who have foregone academia to pursue profit. Not very noble.
I have no particular ideas about their business model, but if such endeavors are really not, what–moral?–then I suppose that Spain could have located the ship and hauled up the treasure on its own. Or maybe they could have hired such a company on a commission basis.

Or the cargo might simply have remained at the bottom of the ocean.
 
I’m pretty sure the British Museum has already been in such returns. However, all these returns seem to be done on a case by case basis, and largely due to pressure from the country of origin.
Unless the items in places like the British Museum, The Louvre, The Hermitage, The Smithsonian and others (across the globe) have been given or sold by legitimate governments they should be returned when possible to the countries of origin. Those countries and their people should benefit from from those artifacts. Britain for example has the Stonehenge but it should not have any ancient Egyptian works unless sold/donated legitimately.
 
It seems fair that Odyssey Marine Exploration should be paid a hefty sum. They didn’t steal the artifacts from anyone. They found and recovered them at great expense.
The items were the possession of the Spanish people. The wreck was a graveyard. They did not get permission from the Spanish government to explore the wreck. Sucks to be them, but next time maybe they should get permission first. If they don’t like the line of business they’re in, they can find alternative work.
 
Was the wreck in Spanish waters?
The wreck was in international waters but it wasn’t abandoned. It was sunk by the British. It was a Spanish owned ship with Spanish owned gold. I can understand abandoned ships, this wasn’t it. Just because the Spanish never got around to recovering their wreck for whatever reason does not give anyone else the right to steal it.

If you lose your wallet on a street and I find it knowing its yours and keep it, am I not stealing from you?

One could argue that some of that gold belongs to Peru or whatever colony it came from. That would possibly be an issue for the courts too.
 
In a few of these cases, the return of antiquities has been turned into a win-win situation. In exchange for the compromise of returning the antiquities to the home nation, a deal is struck that allows an exclusive arrangement to share other antiquities that are stable enough for international travel. In other words, the home nation agrees to send them other antiquities for a couple of years at a time on a rotating basis, so the foreign museum actually benefits, because it will constantly have new exhibits of rare items in traveling exhibitions.
 
It’s my understanding that the company doing the exploration did not know until the well into the exploration the identity of the ship.

Is it the case that maritime law would require divers to request permission from any potential owners of a sunken ship before beginning exploration?
 
What happened to right of discovery?
It has been lost for more than 100 years,
the people who owned it have been dead for a long while.

Whoever finds it has a right to keep it.

The Mona Lisa is not going to be returned to Italy, just because it was made in Italy by an Italian.

Why must Egyptian antiquities be returned to Egypt, when the original Egyptians no longer live there? It might have belonged to the Old Egypt, but not to the New Egypt which is made up of a completely different people from the past. Not to mention the Egyptian Revolution showed little care for the artifacts, and destroyed them.
 
If Spain wants to play “its ours” game, I suggest they return the treasure to the people they took it from, namely South Americans. “Its ours” only counts if it is actually “yours” to begin with.
 
The wreck was in international waters but it wasn’t abandoned. It was sunk by the British. It was a Spanish owned ship with Spanish owned gold. I can understand abandoned ships, this wasn’t it. Just because the Spanish never got around to recovering their wreck for whatever reason does not give anyone else the right to steal it.

If you lose your wallet on a street and I find it knowing its yours and keep it, am I not stealing from you?

One could argue that some of that gold belongs to Peru or whatever colony it came from. That would possibly be an issue for the courts too.
Then, it could also be argued that the wreck belonged to the British - spoils of war. 🤷
 
What happened to right of discovery?
It has been lost for more than 100 years,
the people who owned it have been dead for a long while.

Whoever finds it has a right to keep it.

The Mona Lisa is not going to be returned to Italy, just because it was made in Italy by an Italian.

Why must Egyptian antiquities be returned to Egypt, when the original Egyptians no longer live there? It might have belonged to the Old Egypt, but not to the New Egypt which is made up of a completely different people from the past. Not to mention the Egyptian Revolution showed little care for the artifacts, and destroyed them.
👍
 
If Spain wants to play “its ours” game, I suggest they return the treasure to the people they took it from, namely South Americans. “Its ours” only counts if it is actually “yours” to begin with.
👍
 
If you lose your wallet on a street and I find it knowing its yours and keep it, am I not stealing from you?
If someone find a wallet my ancestor lost a few hundred years ago, it would be nice if they tracked me down. I wouldn’t expect it or demand it though…
 
The wreck was in international waters but it wasn’t abandoned. It was sunk by the British. It was a Spanish owned ship with Spanish owned gold. I can understand abandoned ships, this wasn’t it. Just because the Spanish never got around to recovering their wreck for whatever reason does not give anyone else the right to steal it.

If you lose your wallet on a street and I find it knowing its yours and keep it, am I not stealing from you?

One could argue that some of that gold belongs to Peru or whatever colony it came from. That would possibly be an issue for the courts too.
If you lose your wallet in the street and leave it there for a couple of decades, absolutely there is no issue with someone picking it up and taking it. You forfeit rights to it by not searching for it or picking it up in a reasonable amount of time.

An issue with the idea of returning everything is when is it cut off, when does the cultural significance of an object in its new country overshadow the significance in another?

For example both Paris and Constantinople are home to an Egyptian Obelisk. Paris’s dates from the Napoleon, Constantinople’s to Constantine. In the later case Egypt was even an integral part of the Empire which took it.

In these cases who has the rights to it?

Another case:

Pergemum; Located in modern Turkey, this is the city where Rome became an Empire. It has been a Greek City for much of its existence. In the 19th century German treasure hunters looted it.
To whom does the treasure belong? To the foreign state which holds the land, or to the country with the culture closest to that of the day?

Its easy enough to say everything should be returned, but it is never quite so simple.

In the case of this ship, unless the Spanish government was looking for it, it should be forfeit.
 
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