Spanish treasure returns to Spain

[Tenofovir]

What happened to right of discovery?
It has been lost for more than 100 years,
the people who owned it have been dead for a long while.

It was the property of the Spanish Crown or the People of Spain.

Whoever finds it has a right to keep it.

Again if you find my wallet and you know it belongs to me, do you have a right to keep it? Morally?

The Mona Lisa is not going to be returned to Italy, just because it was made in Italy by an Italian.

Was it sold by its owner or was it just pillaged/taken? If it was sold it stays.

Why must Egyptian antiquities be returned to Egypt, when the original Egyptians no longer live there? It might have belonged to the Old Egypt, but not to the New Egypt which is made up of a completely different people from the past. Not to mention the Egyptian Revolution showed little care for the artifacts, and destroyed them.

Because those people are called Egyptians and among them are the original Egyptians who made them, notwithstanding that they are also the successor and legitimate state in charge of everything in that region. The artifacts belong to that area and the people who live there should benefit from them, not descendants of people who stole them away. Britain has the Stonehenge, why does it want Egyptian artifacts? Everything not given or sold by legitimate authorities has to be returned, otherwise it’s theft.

These things survived for 1000s of years in Egypt. There is no reason to think they won’t survive longer.

 

[Tenofovir]

If you lose your wallet in the street and leave it there for a couple of decades, absolutely there is no issue with someone picking it up and taking it. You forfeit rights to it by not searching for it or picking it up in a reasonable amount of time.

Sorry where did you find this? Is this in the Bible? Is this logically coherent? Is it the teaching of the Magisterium? It’s my property and just because I never claimed it for whatever reason does not mean you have a right to it. Why should I justify my property?

An issue with the idea of returning everything is when is it cut off, when does the cultural significance of an object in its new country overshadow the significance in another?

Because that object belongs to the culture of the people in the area. It’s their heritage, not yours. You have Mt Rushmore and New York, they have these artifacts. This isn’t rocket science my friend. Why should Louvre or British Museum or Smithsonian have these things? If you want to see Egyptian artifacts you visit Egypt and pay those people. It’s fair and honest.

For example both Paris and Constantinople are home to an Egyptian Obelisk. Paris’s dates from the Napoleon, Constantinople’s to Constantine. In the later case Egypt was even an integral part of the Empire which took it.

Napoleon stole it from the Egyptians. The French should return it or ask for permission from the people of Egypt to keep it.

In these cases who has the rights to it?

Was it sold or given legitimately? If not, Egypt has. If the Obelisk was given as part of the legitimate proceedings of the then Egyptian rulers, it should probably stay. That’s the general idea. Just because Egypt was less developed and an upper class of British (Europeans) came along to rob the country in the 18/19/20th centuries does not mean that what they did was morally right. It was theft in most cases.

Just because I excavate a site, does not mean I have a right to steal the artifacts there. Usually governments give you a percentage anyway, and usually you do it for the history and fame not for monetary gain.

Another case:

Pergemum; Located in modern Turkey, this is the city where Rome became an Empire. It has been a Greek City for much of its existence. In the 19th century German treasure hunters looted it.
To whom does the treasure belong? To the foreign state which holds the land, or to the country with the culture closest to that of the day?

The people/country which occupies the region where it was found. What was done in the past was wrong, and wrongs should be rectified. They should benefit. Although the courts can sort that out too. But Germans who looted it should give it back. It’s the right and honourable thing to do.

Its easy enough to say everything should be returned, but it is never quite so simple.

It’s simple.

In the case of this ship, unless the Spanish government was looking for it, it should be forfeit.

Why should they look for it? It’s their property and their graveyard. Thou Shalt not steal.

 

[seekerz]

I have a totally different take on this. Since these treasures were often originally stolen from people/cultures subsequently decimated in many cases, when they are found in international waters they should belong to the international community after those who retrieved it are compensated for their trouble. International NGOs seem to be in a perpetual cash crunch and could benefit from property whose ownership cannot be possibly established now due to theft, war, redrawing of countries’ borders and the passage of time.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

It seems fair that Odyssey Marine Exploration should be paid a hefty sum. They didn’t steal the artifacts from anyone. They found and recovered them at great expense.

Shouldn’t this “treasure” have been rightfully taken to Peru, from whom the Spanish stole it in the first place?

Forget it, the Peruvians are appealing the ruling and are submitting a claim to the find.

Spanish news agency EFE reported the Peruvian government planned to appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court to claim part of the cargo.

 

[JimG]

The fact is, nobody would get these items if this company hadn’t taken the time, money, and trouble to find them and bring them up. And normally such a company is not sure of the identity of the ship or its contents until exploration is complete. If they are in doubt as to whether they will be allowed to keep the artifacts, it might be wise to try to seek permission and determine ownership before they explore.

But even that would likely lead to counterclaims and lawsuits, and once the treasure is retrieved and its identity is determined, there would be even more contention.

So how much is it worth to make the effort for something you may have to give away?

Would the competing claimants for possession just be happier to leave the artifacts at the bottom of the sea?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

The fact is, nobody would get these items if this company hadn’t taken the time, money, and trouble to find them and bring them up. And normally such a company is not sure of the identity of the ship or its contents until exploration is complete. If they are in doubt as to whether they will be allowed to keep the artifacts, it might be wise to try to seek permission and determine ownership before they explore.

But even that would likely lead to counterclaims and lawsuits, and once the treasure is retrieved and its identity is determined, there would be even more contention.

So how much is it worth to make the effort for something you may have to give away?

Would the competing claimants for possession just be happier to leave the artifacts at the bottom of the sea?

That is the very real possibility of happening with this lawsuit. Scavenging companies will now be very wary about recovering wreckage. What’s the point of recovering this stuff if the government is just going to take it away from you?

 

[seekerz]

That is the very real possibility of happening with this lawsuit. Scavenging companies will now be very wary about recovering wreckage. What’s the point of recovering this stuff if the government is just going to take it away from you?

I was under the impression that the state always had claim on any treasure salvaged but that the salvage company got a percentage. The company should definitely be reimbursed for their trouble but the treasure cannot go 100% to them since international waters are not their private property.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I was under the impression that the state always had claim on any treasure salvaged but that the salvage company got a percentage. The company should definitely be reimbursed for their trouble but the treasure cannot go 100% to them since international waters are not their private property.

International waters are, by their definition, no one’s property.

 

[rlg94086]

Shouldn’t this “treasure” have been rightfully taken to Peru, from whom the Spanish stole it in the first place?

Forget it, the Peruvians are appealing the ruling and are submitting a claim to the find.

Spanish news agency EFE reported the Peruvian government planned to appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court to claim part of the cargo.

Yep. And if there are any indigenous groups in Peru, they should sue the government…

 

[seekerz]

Yep. And if there are any indigenous groups in Peru, they should sue the government…

Exactly - the claims would never end and the treasure would end up benefiting no one. Which is why I believe that unless there are clear lines of ownership, treasures in international waters should benefit the whole world through international organisations.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Yep. And if there are any indigenous groups in Peru, they should sue the government…

Isn’t Peru one of the US signatories for human rights for “Mother Earth”? If so, maybe the UN can sue everyone on behalf of “Mother Earth” for stealing the gold from her bossom and have it returned from where it came!

 

[SamH]

The items were the possession of the Spanish people. The wreck was a graveyard. They did not get permission from the Spanish government to explore the wreck. Sucks to be them, but next time maybe they should get permission first. If they don’t like the line of business they’re in, they can find alternative work.

Actually the gold should be returned to Peru since it was stolen from them in the first place.