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Nec5
Guest
If you don’t spank, you have to pay a penalty. Whoops, I mean a tax.
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ATeutonicKnight
Guest
Bahaha. Thank you for giving your experienced advice about this, and even with a humorous twist. Always an added bonus. I like to go to these threads so I can learn, and when we can get past the arguing because we all have a different opinion there is a lot of knowledge to be gained. As you can see from my signature I do not plan to have children or get married, but as a Priest, Friar or Monk these things are good to know for when people ask. I’m not sure when I might use the choke collar part, but I will find a way to fit that in, I am sure.No, you don’t do that. What I did was keep my hand on him in situations like that. Physically not remove my hand from him. I knew that he WOULD run into the street or run away from me, etc. and I could not take that chance. You just arrange your life when you have a more intense child. There’s things I couldn’t do once he arrived and we figured out that he was one of “those” kids. Like trust that any of the lessons that his brother had absorbed without much effort, would ever get into him.
Before I had kids, I used to think parents who used the kid leashes were pathetic losers. Then I had a kid that not only needed a leash, he needed a choke chain…LOL I always tell parents who use those, if I notice them, that I totally support them. You do whatever it takes for your kids to survive.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
I know that here, the cops will do nothing if you spank your kid. In fact, if you are worried about abuse calls, you can call them to witness the spanking. But the CPS has to follow up on abuse calls. It’s absurd to think that one swat on the behind is abuse, and meanwhile, true abuse calls might be shuffled to the bottom while the social workers respond to parents who are obviously not abusers.
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mini_me640
Guest
It is not illegal to spank anywhere in the US, but like you say, if someone reports something, CPS has to follow up. It’s ridiculous that someone would call CPS on someone for giving a swat on the behind. Even though I’m not a big proponent of spanking, people need to get a grip if they are calling on something like that. Ludicrous.
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austenbosten
Guest
Some people suffer serious mental disorders and they believe that parents parenting are abusing. It’s called delusion and is part of the mental disorder all RDDB’s suffer from.
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austenbosten
Guest
Red Diaper Doper Baby(ies)
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underthegrace
Guest
I worked with children and adults with special needs (behavioural as well as developmental & or physical) for 10 years before becoming a parent, and now have two young children. My older child is a classic “spirited child” persistent, perceptive, amazing and incredibly challenging. So I know tough behaviour issues… Let me first say that had I not had the professional training and experience I have, I would be soft on the issue of spanking… but because I was in a position where I would LOSE MY JOB if I didn’t get the job done peacefully, I can tell you that they are NOT necessary (I once had to have a client removed by police in bullet proof vests, my clients were not easy!)
Until a child can LEARN something (IE cats mostly clean themselves, or must be bathed by adults in a tub, because toilets have germs that can make you sick and cats have claws that can hurt you, OR you must never run in the road because a car might not see you and you could be hit and injured or even die)… you have two options: TRAIN the child like an animal (or more correctly, the animal part of the child) using dominance and fear with or without corporal punishment OR YOU take responsibility for their safety (while continuing to instruct them and give them as much information as possible- this we know about brain development, that information sticks better when linked to more details and experiences)… I believe this is the better choice
An example of how this worked for us- around when my daughter learned to walk until she was 2, we lived on a rural road that people drove VERY quickly, and we were right on a blind corner. So I held her hand or used a baby carrier (if I needed hands free for instance) for walks (and I rigged a kind of harnass if she wanted more freedom in a crowd). I talked about the situation every time a car went by. I let her see on my face that I was really worried about it. It lead to meaningful conversations about life and death and the nature of my love for her. It forced me to engage with her on a deep level. I think this is a positive outcome… Anyway, she has just turned three, and can be trusted to walk without holding hands along the road. If she hears a car, she stops, moves as far off the road as possible, and waves to the car to make sure they see her. She is SPIRITED… if I pushed her to OBEY, she would react against it and endanger herself. But by harnessing her will to live and her desire to master herself and become more mature, she is now very safe and capable at a young age.
I think there are many problems with spanking, and long term psychological effects might be one of them (that reason alone should give all parents serious motivation to seek other “tools” for educating and forming their children)… but the more immediate problem is that a spanking absolutely DOES NOT teach a child right from wrong. In fact, it handicaps moral development by teaching them to consider only the fear of punishment- that is, the outcome of a behaviour TO THEMSELVES. It motivates them to try and hide their behaviour that they fear might displease us, it teaches them to fear failure, it creates or contributes to an adversarial tone in the parent-child relationship that often predicts increasing trouble down the road… PUNISHMENT does not teach… DISCIPLINE does. That is, making DISCIPLES of your children- teaching them, reasoning with them, modeling respect, grace, kindness, patience… And until then, we can choose to avoid situations, we can find ways to make it safe, we can TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.
In closing, I’d like to add that this one study does not stand alone, flawed as the wording or methodology might be… EVERY study done on spanking, in every country in the world, for more than 50 years shows that spanking is at best ineffective and at worst extremely damaging to moral and psychological development…
What do you want your child to do? What do you want their MOTIVATION for doing that to be? Forcing compliance through fear requires children to become extrinsically motivated for their own safety. This makes important but simple situations like running in the road infinitely more complicated for them to think about. It pretty well ensures that in moral situations like sharing, they will not be considering the others’ feelings, but only fear of punishment… in other words, themselves.
"I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better.” ― Maya Angelou
Until a child can LEARN something (IE cats mostly clean themselves, or must be bathed by adults in a tub, because toilets have germs that can make you sick and cats have claws that can hurt you, OR you must never run in the road because a car might not see you and you could be hit and injured or even die)… you have two options: TRAIN the child like an animal (or more correctly, the animal part of the child) using dominance and fear with or without corporal punishment OR YOU take responsibility for their safety (while continuing to instruct them and give them as much information as possible- this we know about brain development, that information sticks better when linked to more details and experiences)… I believe this is the better choice
An example of how this worked for us- around when my daughter learned to walk until she was 2, we lived on a rural road that people drove VERY quickly, and we were right on a blind corner. So I held her hand or used a baby carrier (if I needed hands free for instance) for walks (and I rigged a kind of harnass if she wanted more freedom in a crowd). I talked about the situation every time a car went by. I let her see on my face that I was really worried about it. It lead to meaningful conversations about life and death and the nature of my love for her. It forced me to engage with her on a deep level. I think this is a positive outcome… Anyway, she has just turned three, and can be trusted to walk without holding hands along the road. If she hears a car, she stops, moves as far off the road as possible, and waves to the car to make sure they see her. She is SPIRITED… if I pushed her to OBEY, she would react against it and endanger herself. But by harnessing her will to live and her desire to master herself and become more mature, she is now very safe and capable at a young age.
I think there are many problems with spanking, and long term psychological effects might be one of them (that reason alone should give all parents serious motivation to seek other “tools” for educating and forming their children)… but the more immediate problem is that a spanking absolutely DOES NOT teach a child right from wrong. In fact, it handicaps moral development by teaching them to consider only the fear of punishment- that is, the outcome of a behaviour TO THEMSELVES. It motivates them to try and hide their behaviour that they fear might displease us, it teaches them to fear failure, it creates or contributes to an adversarial tone in the parent-child relationship that often predicts increasing trouble down the road… PUNISHMENT does not teach… DISCIPLINE does. That is, making DISCIPLES of your children- teaching them, reasoning with them, modeling respect, grace, kindness, patience… And until then, we can choose to avoid situations, we can find ways to make it safe, we can TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.
In closing, I’d like to add that this one study does not stand alone, flawed as the wording or methodology might be… EVERY study done on spanking, in every country in the world, for more than 50 years shows that spanking is at best ineffective and at worst extremely damaging to moral and psychological development…
What do you want your child to do? What do you want their MOTIVATION for doing that to be? Forcing compliance through fear requires children to become extrinsically motivated for their own safety. This makes important but simple situations like running in the road infinitely more complicated for them to think about. It pretty well ensures that in moral situations like sharing, they will not be considering the others’ feelings, but only fear of punishment… in other words, themselves.
"I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better.” ― Maya Angelou
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underthegrace
Guest
Of course it is important to be clear and to follow through on what you have said, but “not taking garbage” from your kids does not require corporal (or any) punishment. First of all, the lady should have set her kid up for success by giving clear warnings of when it was going to be time to go. (Five minutes! Two minutes! One minute! Get your towel, we’re going now!) She could use that last technique in brackets to put the child’s mind on the next task, gathering his things, instead of creating a power struggle the way she did. Empty warnings are bunk. So are true threats of imposed punishments. They undermine the relationship, which is the basis of your power to influence and form the child. In my professional work with children with behavioural disorders, I simply would not take a child swimming unless I was getting in the pool myself.
It is very frustrating to me that parenting remains limited by this false dichotomy of permissive or authoritarian parenting. There is another way. You can be the authority- have the child learning from you and following you willingly, if you will only offer them respect and the straight information. It requires honesty, perseverence, and TIME. It is HARDER… but instead of just appearing to work for a short time, it ACTUALLY WORKS at forming intrinsically motivated, respectful people who actually want to offer you grace back!
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pnewton
Guest
I am glad when any poster finds the tools they need to parent properly, especially if they are dealing with special needs children. It underscores the maxim that all children are different. For my part, limited use of spanking is but one tool, and one that works well when properly applied. I can not agree though that parenting is all about the relationship and there is not behavioral training. Even if we discount the literal meaning of Scripture in “spare the rod; spoil the child”, I am still convinced that some for of punishment that hurts is necessary. My professional experience with special needs (adults) is quite the opposite. I have found that my punishment (non-physical) can go a long way to modifying behavior.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
Wowee, that is one smart 2 year old!!!
Did you solve all the problems of the world at the same time?Indeed.Wowee, that is one smart 2 year old!!!
Few of the 2 year olds I know have such deep conversations.
Perhaps I just have poor linguistic skills.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
My sons can’t remember anything that happened to them before about age 6, so whatever conversations we had, would be worthless anyway.
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underthegrace
Guest
Thankyou for your thoughtful response.
I have wondered whether sometimes behavioural modification could be used as a stop-gap, until the child can learn the correct motivation… but I’m really not convinced that it ever “works” when applied as a punishment, especially without causing relational, psychological and further behavioural problems in the child…
Regarding the scripture passage, I think it is very important to realize that God was instructing a certain culture, in a certain moment in time. IF our two options were behaviour modification or neglectful, permissive parenting, I would be ALL FOR the former! HOWEVER, thankfully we do not live in such brutal times.
I would highly recommend the book Parenting for a Peaceful World by Robin Grille which includes a history of parenting practices and then discusses their outcomes on the societal level… Also Alfie Kohn’s book, Unconditional Parenting… extremely well researched, both of them, and I found the first one really shed light on a lot of the brutality depicted in Scripture, which I and many people (especially non Christians) have trouble with.
I hope you (and all parents, including me!) continue to bravely question our parenting practices and seek to do better… so much “need for punishment” disappears when a “problem solving” respectful attitude and age appropriate expectations replace a punitive attitude and societal (often unrealistic) expectations…
Regarding the professional work with adults with special needs, I am surprised that any punitive methods would be allowed… it seems to me it would be difficult to safeguard their dignity as an adult while using such techniques? With younger kids I was sometimes encouraged to “remove a privilege” or something… is that what you mean?
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underthegrace
Guest
Haha, solving the world’s problems is definitely a favourite subject around here, although I fear our ideas are far too common to be taken seriously! hahaha!
Seriously though, YES, my daughter is linguistically precocious. On the other hand, a spank and a yelled “NO!” does not exactly invite deep thinking on meaningful subjects! Opportunities for formation are lost… the sooner and more often we discuss meaningful subjects, the sooner THEY WILL have the vocabulary to discuss them.
Many of her young friends who talk a great deal less are nevertheless incredibly thoughtful, gracious toddlers and preschoolers- Oh, when their things are grabbed right out of their hands, their feelings of injustice and personal offense explode into screaming or hitting just as much as the next kid… But by addressing the underlying motivation and feelings of both children, these kids are learning empathy, kindness… I am happily surprised so very often!
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underthegrace
Guest
What a sad and misguided line of reasoning!My sons can’t remember anything that happened to them before about age 6, so whatever conversations we had, would be worthless anyway.
EVERYTHING we do with our children has worth and meaning. Before conscious memory begins, the framework for that memory is being built- children’s brains are under construction, and the way they are treated when young has serious consequence for the rest of their lives… for instance if a child in utero is exposed to verbal and physical violence and the resulting stress hormones, their brain is physically different from babies that were not exposed. In particular, the “old brain” which deals with survival (autonomic nervous system, fight or flight response) is larger than other babies, while their frontal cortex which handles higher reasoning and is important for the development of empathy, is smaller. They do not remember the stress, yet it will affect them for their entire lives.
Similarly, children adopted even as infants from abusive situations, violent or not (the serious neglect experienced by babies and children in many orphanages for example) will likely suffer physical, developmental, psychological and social problems long term, even if they do not remember, or even know, what happened to them when they were so young…
As Catholic parents, we have the opportunity to begin forming our children in Love of God and Others from a very young age… even conception! As we love them and protect them, nurture them and empathize with them, model appropriate behaviour and discuss the important things of life, play with them and enjoy them, celebrating who God has made them to be… As we introduce new vocabulary we are opening the door for the child to think about and talk about these new things… there is a growing body of research that links the development of language to the development of conscious memory… These gifts will bear fruit for the rest of their lives, whether they remember or not!
Furthermore, even if it were true that early experience were not foundational and formative, it would certainly be a dangerous idea to spread around that treatment prior to conscious memory was of no concern… Historically this line of reasoning has been used to allow the abuse of children through neglect, forced labour and violent or sexual misconduct.
EVEN IF ALL OF THE ABOVE were not true, the way we relate to our babies and young children would still make a mark on OUR souls…
Do you suppose God did not realize we would be reading these passages as well?
I doubt that.
I would rather think that God knew well who would be reading this and included teachings that are timeless.
Thanks very much.
But I believe I will stick with the traditions that my parents taught me and that their parents taught them.
It seems to have worked well for a few generations now, I have every reason to expect it will continue to do so.
Punishment has its place. We should never forget that.
When a child willingly breaks the rules, they should know there will be swift consequences for it.
Whether that includes a swift slap or something substantially more creative is up to the parent.
No, I mean exercise of all forms of punishment, the specific flavor of such should be entirely up to the parent.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
Don’t cry for me, Argentina…
I was being slightly glib with that response. Of course I know it wasn’t futile to talk to my sons before the age of 6. It was actually a poke at you for suggesting that you were having “in-depth” discussions with your daughter when she was 2.
Never mind defending your position, though. I’m not that interested. Going to solve the Middle East peace problem with my dog.
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austenbosten
Guest
“Fido you’re wrong”Don’t cry for me, Argentina…
I was being slightly glib with that response. Of course I know it wasn’t futile to talk to my sons before the age of 6. It was actually a poke at you for suggesting that you were having “in-depth” discussions with your daughter when she was 2.
Never mind defending your position, though. I’m not that interested. Going to solve the Middle East peace problem with my dog.
Ruff!
“No Fido, the two-state Solution will not work”
Ruff! Ruff!
“Even if it could bring peace to Israel and Palestine there are still the six nations that want to destroy Israel”
Ruff Ruff!
“No Fido those nations aren’t going to immediately put their sabres down if a peace deal was brokered”
Ruff!
“Ahhh I can’t deal with you Fido…you’re just wrong!..”
…
“…you wanna treat?”
Ruff Ruff!
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latin_rite
Guest
It also means you will get a kick up the arse if you keep on going. There has been a move away from smacking children. And the futher we have moved away from smacking the more society as degraded.
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austenbosten
Guest
How could you say that, when we are so close to legalizing love. Whether you’re a man and a man or a woman and a woman…if you love each other you can marry.
I say society is upgrading
(Sarcasm)
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