Speak Up or Shut Up?

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Soldier_Of_God

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Greetings All,

I’m in a bit of a quandary. I’m personally debating how badly I stepped out of line at work. During lunch today, a friend and I were having having a meal in the cafeteria and we were approached by a ranking officer of the company. My friend is an obviously religious and devout Orthodox Jew and everyone at the company aware of this. As my friend travelled to Israel, he was asked by this ranking officer what places would be good to visit. My companion said that Jerusalem was a wonderful place to visit because it contains historical elements for 3 major religions. The person responded (and I’m paraphrasinng here):

I’m not religious. I don’t believe any of that non-sense. Religion is the cause of all wars.

I guess I was being a touchy because I asked if he can provide the evidence for his comment because I found what he said to be quite disparaging to religious people. I cited that the according to the Encyclopedia of Wars, only 7% of wars are religious based. To which he responded that is also non-sense and that ‘eveyone knows religion causes all wars.’ Of course, the situation degenerated from there and we exchanged a number of comments with each other.

I did ask for him to apologize for his improper blanket statement, to which he refused. Unfortunately, I wasn’t successful in diffusing the situation and I couldn’t convince him that such statements are offensive to religious people. Now, I’m debating about going to the human resources department because this isn’t the first time this sort of statement has been presented by him. I wanted to make a stand as I’m tired of keeping silent when people (especially ranking officers) denigrate religion and Christianity openly at work.

Any advice would be appreciated.
 
Soldier_Of_God said:
Greetings All,

I’m in a bit of a quandary. I’m personally debating how badly I stepped out of line at work. During lunch today, a friend and I were having having a meal in the cafeteria and we were approached by a ranking officer of the company. My friend is an obviously religious and devout Orthodox Jew and everyone at the company aware of this. As my friend travelled to Israel, he was asked by this ranking officer what places would be good to visit. My companion said that Jerusalem was a wonderful place to visit because it contains historical elements for 3 major religions. The person responded (and I’m paraphrasinng here):

I’m not religious. I don’t believe any of that non-sense. Religion is the cause of all wars.

I guess I was being a touchy because I asked if he can provide the evidence for his comment because I found what he said to be quite disparaging to religious people. I cited that the according to the Encyclopedia of Wars, only 7% of wars are religious based. To which he responded that is also non-sense and that ‘eveyone knows religion causes all wars.’ Of course, the situation degenerated from there and we exchanged a number of comments with other.

I did ask for him to apologize for his improper blanket statement, to which he refused. Unfortunately, I wasn’t successful in diffusing the situation and I couldn’t convince him that such statements are offensive to religious people. Now, I’m debating about going to the human resources department because this isn’t the first time this sort of statement has been presented by him. I wanted to make a stand as I’m tired of keeping silent when people (especially ranking officers) denigrate religion and Christianity openly at work.

Any advice would be appreciated.
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I’m guessing if it’s like most companies the policies would state that “religious talk” shouldn’t even be happening and that’s probably where the HR person would take it. So he may get a reprimand, but likely so will you for engaging further in the discussion.

His comments were out of line, but getting into a debate in the workplace isn’t right on either parties part. I think I would have ended the conversation by telling him that his comment was out of line, and then enjoyed the rest of my lunch. If he had insisted on continuing to belittle your beliefs after that, than you may have had cause to head to HR, but since you engaged in the conversation, providing statistics etc. it probably won’t really go in your favor.
 
heart4home said:
His comments were out of line, but getting into a debate in the workplace isn’t right on either parties part. I think I would have ended the conversation by telling him that his comment was out of line, and then enjoyed the rest of my lunch. If he had insisted on continuing to belittle your beliefs after that, than you may have had cause to head to HR, but since you engaged in the conversation, providing statistics etc. it probably won’t really go in your favor.
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Yes, I would agree that I engaged him. I did initially say his comment wasn’t appropriate but he responded with ‘Well, it’s true’ and another person said ‘Yeah!’ and they high fived each other. That’s when I blew a gasket and started my end of things with the citation and so on. 😦
 
Soldier_Of_God said:
Yes, I would agree that I engaged him. I did initially say his comment wasn’t appropriate but he responded with ‘Well, it’s true’ and another person said ‘Yeah!’ and they high fived each other. That’s when I blew a gasket and started my end of things with the citation and so on. 😦
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Oh, believe me I understand how easy it is to react to such statements and want to defend yourself, your faith, etc.

I’m just saying that HR is not likely going to side totally with you. He’ll defend himself and well you know…
 
Well he was very rude if nothing else. I would say a prayer for him and let it go unless his behavior continues I wouldn’t take it up with Human Resources. You already asked for an apology and didn’t get it so he know you believe what he said was out of line there’s not really much else you can do. 🤷
 
Soldier_Of_God said:
Yes, I would agree that I engaged him. I did initially say his comment wasn’t appropriate but he responded with ‘Well, it’s true’ and another person said ‘Yeah!’ and they high fived each other. That’s when I blew a gasket and started my end of things with the citation and so on. 😦
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Good grief. They high-fived each other? What are they, 15 years old?

Still, though, I don’t think I’d do anything further about it in terms of complaining. What you might do, is go to HR not to make a complaint, but to ask them what is the appropriate form of words to say to someone (not naming any names) who denigrates all religion, or your specific religion (it is not necessary to tell them what it is), if you want them to stop. Then if you use that form of words, and someone won’t let it go, you will have grounds for going to HR. If you can ask HR about it anonymously, that would be best. HR folks are human too, and they might not give you the same answer if they think you’re Christian vs. if they think you’re Jewish or Muslim or something.

I’m just going by what I’ve seen in some HR courses on sexual harrassment, where they tell you what to say if someone’s porn they’ve hung on their walls offends you or whatever. 🙂

–Jen
 
I’m opinionated as they come but I manage to keep my mouth shut and not seriously offend anyone, get into trouble at work, or anything else.

Be quiet if you can’t be nice about disagreement.
 
Curious, what did your Jewish co-worker say about everything that transpired?
 
That guy shouldn’t have said that. He should be more respectful of others’ beliefs. Even if he isn’t religious and thinks religion causes wars, he shouldn’t force that opinion on people as if it’s fact. If I were you, though, I wouldn’t have made too big of a deal about it. You know what you believe and clearly this guy is immutable. I would have politely disagreed, but I wouldn’t have pushed it too far. War and religion are touchy subjects.
 
Soldier_Of_God said:
Greetings All,

I’m in a bit of a quandary. I’m personally debating how badly I stepped out of line at work. During lunch today, a friend and I were having having a meal in the cafeteria and we were approached by a ranking officer of the company. My friend is an obviously religious and devout Orthodox Jew and everyone at the company aware of this. As my friend travelled to Israel, he was asked by this ranking officer what places would be good to visit. My companion said that Jerusalem was a wonderful place to visit because it contains historical elements for 3 major religions. The person responded (and I’m paraphrasinng here):

I’m not religious. I don’t believe any of that non-sense. Religion is the cause of all wars.

I guess I was being a touchy because I asked if he can provide the evidence for his comment because I found what he said to be quite disparaging to religious people. I cited that the according to the Encyclopedia of Wars, only 7% of wars are religious based. To which he responded that is also non-sense and that ‘eveyone knows religion causes all wars.’ Of course, the situation degenerated from there and we exchanged a number of comments with each other.

I did ask for him to apologize for his improper blanket statement, to which he refused. Unfortunately, I wasn’t successful in diffusing the situation and I couldn’t convince him that such statements are offensive to religious people. Now, I’m debating about going to the human resources department because this isn’t the first time this sort of statement has been presented by him. I wanted to make a stand as I’m tired of keeping silent when people (especially ranking officers) denigrate religion and Christianity openly at work.

Any advice would be appreciated.
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Wow. My giess is that you need to look for a new job.
  1. You jumped into a conversation that didn’t involve you.
  2. The exchange took break during a lunch break.
  3. You were NOT being addressed.
  4. You disagreed and demanded an APOLOGY?
First and last: the man was NOT talking to you!
 
PatriceA said:
Curious, what did your Jewish co-worker say about everything that transpired?
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He was angry to but he let me do the talking since I’m much more versed in these matters. However, even he spoke up as the conversation heated due to the exchange.
 
catharina said:
Wow. My giess is that you need to look for a new job.
  1. You jumped into a conversation that didn’t involve you.
  2. The exchange took break during a lunch break.
  3. You were NOT being addressed.
  4. You disagreed and demanded an APOLOGY?
First and last: the man was NOT talking to you!
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I appreciate what you are saying. To be clear, my friend and I were in the midst of a conversation when our associate came by our table at the workplace. Regardless, an offensive statement is nonetheless offensive. If he made disparaging remarks regarding racial lines or sexist remarks, whether I was personally addressed or not is not material to the issue. It’s not merely a difference of opinion but a gross breach of conduct.
 
heart4home said:
Oh, believe me I understand how easy it is to react to such statements and want to defend yourself, your faith, etc.

I’m just saying that HR is not likely going to side totally with you. He’ll defend himself and well you know…
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I agree with what you are saying. I’m not convinced much will be gained with an audience with HR. However, I feel that to let is slide because it would be ‘convenient’ doesn’t sit well with me. It seems the Italian male in me doesn’t like to think before acting. 😦
 
Soldier_Of_God said:
I appreciate what you are saying. To be clear, my friend and I were in the midst of a conversation when our associate came by our table. Regardless, an offensive statement is nonetheless offensive. If he made disparaging remarks regarding racial lines or sexist remark, whether I was personally addressed or not is not material to the issue.
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The associate came to the table with a question for your lunch-mate.
You stated that very clearly. If you don’t understand that it is not your
place to provide contradiction and commentary on his words, then, as I said,
it’s time to look for a new job. You were really rude - in a matter that did
not concern you. If you don’t understand that fact, then you have a lot to learn
about the world of work. Also in matters related to the Faith, gentleness works
wonders while angry confrontation does not.

You “demanded” an apology? That’s very angry, IMO.
 
catharina said:
The associate came to the table with a question for your lunch-mate.
You stated that very clearly. If you don’t understand that it is not your
place to provide contradiction and commentary on his words, then, as I said,
it’s time to look for a new job. You were really rude - in a matter that did
not concern you. If you don’t understand that fact, then you have a lot to learn
about the world of work. Also in matters related to the Faith, gentleness works
wonders while angry confrontation does not.

You “demanded” an apology? That’s very angry, IMO.
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You are right and I agree I was angry, hence my request for apology and it was uncharitable. However, his derogatory commentary was not pertinent to his request and certainly uncalled for, especially when he is aware of our religious inclination.
 
Soldier_Of_God said:
You are right and I agree I was angry, hence my request for apology and it was uncharitable. However, his derogatory commentary was not pertinent to his request and certainly uncalled for, especially when he is aware of our religious inclination.
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Yet you still miss the point.
His comment was NOT addressed to you.
 
catharina said:
Yet you still miss the point.
His comment was NOT addressed to you.
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Perhaps you are missing the point. If a comment is offensive, it offends regardless of who it is directed at, especially if one is part of the target group. If someone said, “All Italians are knuckle dragging, sloped browed idiots.” that would prove to be offensive to all Italians, regardless of who it is directed at. Being Italian, I would be offended if I was present when this comment was made, whether it was personally directed at me or not.
 
catharina said:
Yet you still miss the point.
His comment was NOT addressed to you.
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Personally, I don’t think it’s a very good point. If you address a remark to one of two people who are in the middle of a conversation, you are really joining yourself to their conversation. It’s not like the OP was eavesdropping on a couple of people who were chatting in the next cube or something.

I’m not saying that what the OP did was wise, just that your particular point here isn’t really very good in this situation.

–Jen
 
revert_jen said:
I’m not saying that what the OP did was wise, just that your particular point here isn’t really very good in this situation.

–Jen
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Oh, I agree what I did wasn’t wise. I just felt that something needed to be done since it wasn’t the first time with this fellow.
 
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