Speak Up or Shut Up?

[TheHolyTrinity]

In a working environment there are differences of age, gender, race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, disability, language, or socio-economic status. In light of your description of your work colleague one would expect whilst at work to be respected for cultural, ethnic and religious differences. This goes two ways.

Now it may be that this work colleagues question, about sight seeing in Israel was another jibe at religion and prove his point or an innocent question based on your friends knowledge of Israel. There are a couple of ways that you and your friend could manage situations like this again …

• Deflect potential religious slant in a conversation when this senior colleague is within earshot. The way I would have responded to him, knowing his history on religion would have been - “There are some wonderful sights on-line about visiting Israel” You could hype it up and sell the idea of searching on-line. This prevents any religious slurs towards you both and also prevents the heckles rising on this senior colleague. Or you could have quizzed him on what his interests are whilst on holiday - dinning/eating, wildlife, American Independence Park etc. It also bides you time to think as well.
• Keep one step ahead of this senior colleague when he is in your presence, keep alert and remain wary. Answer any questions if it pertains to religion in your own time, ie: “can I get back to you on that?” Be selective in your answers.
• Don’t get involved in his need to fight, for what ever reason - non of us know why he has profound adversity to religion, reflecting on how he feels … I believe it is important to keep the work place peaceful though ones own awareness and that of the needs of others.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

That doesn’t surprise me at all.

And it shouldn’t. You’ve distorted my position from the onset. You claimed I was looking for a fight, jumped into a conversation and that I’ve demanded an apology, none of which is true. If I have been antagonistic it’s due to your contempt and misrepresentation of my position and your impertinent attitude. It’s your enmity towards me that is the problem and hence my requests you advocate elsewhere. However, you seem to want to assert your right to converse in this thread and continue to fuel unfriendliness, which is at odds with your stated opinion.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

Dear Soldier of God,

While I admire your zeal in this matter, I think sometimes we all have to be mindful of an old saying:

Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.

In this case, you made your point that you do not believe that religion is the cause of all, or even may, wars. You even provided reasonable evidence for your position. And you probably should have left it there.

I understand with what you have said. I’m familiar with another saying: *Never argue with a fool. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!
*
Unfortunately, I’ve already resolved to go the HR about this matter, as it was not the first time this person has demonstrated a lack of restraint and operated in this manner before.

 

[silicasandra]

And it shouldn’t. You’ve distorted my position from the onset. You claimed I was looking for a fight, jumped into a conversation and that I’ve demanded an apology, none of which is true. If I have been antagonistic it’s due to your contempt and misrepresentation of my position and your impertinent attitude. It’s your enmity towards me that is the problem and hence my requests you advocate elsewhere. However, you seem to want to assert your right to converse in this thread and continue to fuel unfriendliness, which is at odds with your stated opinion.

Soldier, you may not be thrilled that I’m jumping in here, but I find your exchanges with catharina on this thread give me a different way of looking at your original situation. You seem to be reacting very strongly to what she is saying to you, and not being able to “let it go” here makes me think that this might be part of the problem at work. Sure, advice is not always delivered in the way we want it, but I find it’s much easier to assume the person is coming from a good place and leave it at that. In a similar fashion, even though the person you’re dealing with at work said a disrespectful thing, it probably would have served your situation better (and done more to help him see a different side of things), if it had not become antagonistic. As I said before, the way you responded may have, in a twisted way, confirmed his original suspicion - he probably thinks you fought because you are religious, not because he was being disrespectful. If you weren’t religious, then there would have been no disagreement.

You said before that you have a good relationship with your HR dept. That’s good and hopefully there will be some good communication about proper respect in the workplace that can benefit everyone. But I think it would be beneficial for you to engage in some additional self-reflection and prayer on top of that. We have several very well-thought-out posts in this thread on how to deal with your situation, and you have spent most of your responses ignoring these and responding only to the ones that you feel are antagonizing you. I am not sure this indicates that you have a healthy way of dealing with situations like this.

I will be praying for you that this situation improves and that you can be at peace.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

We have several very well-thought-out posts in this thread on how to deal with your situation, and you have spent most of your responses ignoring these and responding only to the ones that you feel are antagonizing you. I am not sure this indicates that you have a healthy way of dealing with situations like this.

I will be praying for you that this situation improves and that you can be at peace.

You are right and I publicly apologize to catharina. I will attempt to let the matter go. I just found the matter at work offensive and I just wanted to vent. In addition, my friend is a kind and gentle soul. When I saw the look on his face at the comment, I couldn’t just say nothing.

 

[catharina]

Soldier, you may not be thrilled that I’m jumping in here, but I find your exchanges with catharina on this thread give me a different way of looking at your original situation. You seem to be reacting very strongly to what she is saying to you, and not being able to “let it go” here makes me think that this might be part of the problem at work. Sure, advice is not always delivered in the way we want it, but I find it’s much easier to assume the person is coming from a good place and leave it at that. In a similar fashion, even though the person you’re dealing with at work said a disrespectful thing, it probably would have served your situation better (and done more to help him see a different side of things), if it had not become antagonistic. As I said before, the way you responded may have, in a twisted way, confirmed his original suspicion - he probably thinks you fought because you are religious, not because he was being disrespectful. If you weren’t religious, then there would have been no disagreement.

You said before that you have a good relationship with your HR dept. That’s good and hopefully there will be some good communication about proper respect in the workplace that can benefit everyone. But I think it would be beneficial for you to engage in some additional self-reflection and prayer on top of that. We have several very well-thought-out posts in this thread on how to deal with your situation, and you have spent most of your responses ignoring these and responding only to the ones that you feel are antagonizing you. I am not sure this indicates that you have a healthy way of dealing with situations like this.

I will be praying for you that this situation improves and that you can be at peace.

I humbly thank you.

In fact I grew up with seven siblings.
Many conversations took place within a group setting.
A standing rule was that one should not “butt in” when not being addressed.
That seems like common sense to me - in all settings.

 

[PiousTemplar]

post a sign in the lunch room at work:
Since discussion of vacation destinations is such a divisive topic these conversations are now banned in the workplace.

LOL!

 

[PiousTemplar]

Greetings All,

I’m in a bit of a quandary. I’m personally debating how badly I stepped out of line at work. During lunch today, a friend and I were having having a meal in the cafeteria and we were approached by a ranking officer of the company. My friend is an obviously religious and devout Orthodox Jew and everyone at the company aware of this. As my friend travelled to Israel, he was asked by this ranking officer what places would be good to visit. My companion said that Jerusalem was a wonderful place to visit because it contains historical elements for 3 major religions. The person responded (and I’m paraphrasinng here):

I’m not religious. I don’t believe any of that non-sense. Religion is the cause of all wars.

I guess I was being a touchy because I asked if he can provide the evidence for his comment because I found what he said to be quite disparaging to religious people. I cited that the according to the Encyclopedia of Wars, only 7% of wars are religious based. To which he responded that is also non-sense and that ‘eveyone knows religion causes all wars.’ Of course, the situation degenerated from there and we exchanged a number of comments with each other.

I did ask for him to apologize for his improper blanket statement, to which he refused. Unfortunately, I wasn’t successful in diffusing the situation and I couldn’t convince him that such statements are offensive to religious people. Now, I’m debating about going to the human resources department because this isn’t the first time this sort of statement has been presented by him. I wanted to make a stand as I’m tired of keeping silent when people (especially ranking officers) denigrate religion and Christianity openly at work.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Occasionally you will come across ignorant bigots who will discredit religion often. I admire your courage to attempt to correct him, just make sure you are as polite as possible. If people like cathatina seriously think you were out of line here, they need to re-connect with reality. If someone makes a beyond obvious offensive remark about religion to a devoutly religious person, it’s obvious they were there to upset somebody, or start an argument.

 

[PiousTemplar]

I humbly thank you.

In fact I grew up with seven siblings.
Many conversations took place within a group setting.
A standing rule was that one should not “butt in” when not being addressed.
That seems like common sense to me - in all settings.

That is not common sense. She was presumably sitting at a table with her friend during lunch break, who was spoken to. The conversation that took place had absolutely nothing to do with work, but was an exchanging of opinions about vacation sites. The ranking officer made an offensive remark out of willfull ignorance. SoG politely argued the point, and asked for an apology.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

I must admit I am very stunned at the the turn of events of but it seems that my associate had an epiphany of sorts or I’ve entered an alternate reality.

At lunch today (after the fire drill) we bumped into each other in the cafeteria and he asked me if I was doing well. I responded I was doing fine and I then apologized for being very rude yesterday to him. His response was that he was sorry and it was his fault that the entire episode occurred. He then extended his hand and he we shook hands. Then he actually embraced me. I was so shocked you could have knocked me over with a feather and I was almost overcome with emotion. Anyway, we both seemed to be very happy that the situation seems to have resolved itself for the better. I still cannot believed it happened.

Whomever prayed for me last night, I want to thank you very much. It seems that God wanted this situation to go away.

 

[catharina]

Occasionally you will come across ignorant bigots who will discredit religion often. I admire your courage to attempt to correct him, just make sure you are as polite as possible. If people like cathatina seriously think you were out of line here, they need to re-connect with reality. If someone makes a beyond obvious offensive remark about religion to a devoutly religious person, it’s obvious they were there to upset somebody, or start an argument.

That is not common sense. She was presumably sitting at a table with her friend during lunch break, who was spoken to. The conversation that took place had absolutely nothing to do with work, but was an exchanging of opinions about vacation sites. The ranking officer made an offensive remark out of willfull ignorance. SoG politely argued the point, and asked for an apology.

She is a He.
So is the friend - a He.

My reality checks are just fine.
I’m a 65 yr old Roman Catholic woman.
I’m one of 36 first cousins.

The rule of thumb in my very large extended family
(closely linked to “don’t interrupt”) is “don’t butt in.”
If you are not being addressed, your opinion has not been requested,
yet the OP did butt in as if he was a part of a two-way conversation.
Problems resulted from his expressed opinion. I’m not surprised by that.

Maybe things are quite different in families
in Australia and Canada? My family’s rule benefitted all.

It still does.

 

[catharina]

I must admit I am very stunned at the the turn of events of but it seems that my associate had an epiphany of sorts or I’ve entered an alternate reality.

At lunch today (after the fire drill) we bumped into each other in the cafeteria and he asked me if I was doing well. I responded I was doing fine and I then apologized for being very rude yesterday to him. His response was that he was sorry and it was his fault that the entire episode occurred. He then extended his hand and he we shook hands. Then he actually embraced me. I was so shocked you could have knocked me over with a feather and I was almost overcome with emotion. Anyway, we both seemed to be very happy that the situation seems to have resolved itself for the better. I still cannot believed it happened.

Whomever prayed for me last night, I want to thank you very much. It seems that God wanted this situation to go away.

I’m certain many prayed for you last night.
I know that I did so. You’re very welcome.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

I’m certain many prayed for you last night.
I know that I did so. You’re very welcome.

Thank-you again.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I must admit I am very stunned at the the turn of events of but it seems that my associate had an epiphany of sorts or I’ve entered an alternate reality.

At lunch today (after the fire drill) we bumped into each other in the cafeteria and he asked me if I was doing well. I responded I was doing fine and I then apologized for being very rude yesterday to him. His response was that he was sorry and it was his fault that the entire episode occurred. He then extended his hand and he we shook hands. Then he actually embraced me. I was so shocked you could have knocked me over with a feather and I was almost overcome with emotion. Anyway, we both seemed to be very happy that the situation seems to have resolved itself for the better. I still cannot believed it happened.

Whomever prayed for me last night, I want to thank you very much. It seems that God wanted this situation to go away.

God be praised! Wonderful news!!!

 

[jazzy0710]

this isn’t the first time this sort of statement has been presented by him. I wanted to make a stand as I’m tired of keeping silent when people (especially ranking officers) denigrate religion and Christianity openly at work.

Any advice would be appreciated.

As an officer of the company he’s supposed to be setting an example for other employees.
I’d take him to HR.

 

[revert_jen]

The rule of thumb in my very large extended family
(closely linked to “don’t interrupt”) is “don’t butt in.”
If you are not being addressed, your opinion has not been requested,
yet the OP did butt in as if he was a part of a two-way conversation.
Problems resulted from his expressed opinion. I’m not surprised by that.

Maybe things are quite different in families
in Australia and Canada? My family’s rule benefitted all.

It still does.

Your family is not the world. In any workplace or social situation I have encountered, in the US or Canada or anywhere else, if two people are having a conversation and an outsider addresses one of them, it becomes a three-way conversation, not a two-way conversation leaving one of the original “conversers” out in the cold and disallowed from speaking.

I’m sure that rule was great in your family, but I’m glad it isn’t the rule everywhere, because it would mean that you couldn’t address one person in a conversation without consigning the other person to social Siberia.

–Jen

 

[catharina]

Your family is not the world. In any workplace or social situation I have encountered, in the US or Canada or anywhere else, if two people are having a conversation and an outsider addresses one of them, it becomes a three-way conversation, not a two-way conversation leaving one of the original “conversers” out in the cold and disallowed from speaking.

I’m sure that rule was great in your family, but I’m glad it isn’t the rule everywhere, because it would mean that you couldn’t address one person in a conversation without consigning the other person to social Siberia.

–Jen

My family is not the world?
Yes. I actually know that.

However what was true for my family was just
as true for my Catholic neighborhood. One could
even say that
it was the way things were for those in local
parishes, those in local Catholic schools. It
was a rule of courtesy - linked to “don’t interrupt”
and also most crudely stated as “Hey! Who asked ya’?”

In part, it might be a generational thing. My childhood
followed WW II so extreme respect for others was the
standard rule for many people. Another folk saying,
common to those times? “Mind your own business.”

Anyway, in most things today — to each his own, I guess.

 

[EasterJoy]

“There was never an angry man that thought his anger unjust.” St. Francis de Sales

OP, I can see why you did not remain silent. Unless the person approaching your table said, “Excuse us, if you will…” before he started to address your friend, it can be assumed that he was the one breaking in on your conversation, and not the other way around. If he says things that aren’t true, whether it is against the Church or the President or the Chinese, there is no reason you cannot choose to politely object. Just try not to go on the attack. It does not make a very good witness against the prejudice that religion makes people aggressive, does it?

The next time someone makes an untrue statement and will not believe you when you speak the truth, just say “No, really, I know what you’re saying is a very prevalent myth, but you can look it up.” In the case you cited, “People find many many reasons to kill each other, but most of the time they don’t trouble themselves to make God their excuse.”

After that, if they won’t believe you, let it go: Don’t toss your pearls before swine. If a town won’t receive you, shake their dust from your feet in protest against them. Et cetera. You can’t teach a pig to sing. You just frustrate yourself and annoy the pig.

Make your objections, and keep a record of what was said by whom and when, in case someone sends HR after you. Other than that, let it go. Prejudices can cause real workplace problems that call for the intervention of those employed to keep your working environment livable, but this person isn’t aggressive enough to be one of them. You can apply your maturity and handle this kind of thing on your own.

 

[TheHolyTrinity]

I must admit I am very stunned at the the turn of events of but it seems that my associate had an epiphany of sorts or I’ve entered an alternate reality.

At lunch today (after the fire drill) we bumped into each other in the cafeteria and he asked me if I was doing well. I responded I was doing fine and I then apologized for being very rude yesterday to him. His response was that he was sorry and it was his fault that the entire episode occurred. He then extended his hand and he we shook hands. Then he actually embraced me. I was so shocked you could have knocked me over with a feather and I was almost overcome with emotion. Anyway, we both seemed to be very happy that the situation seems to have resolved itself for the better. I still cannot believed it happened.

Pleased to hear that things have been resolved in such a wonderful way!

 

[PiousTemplar]

She is a He.
So is the friend - a He.

My reality checks are just fine.
I’m a 65 yr old Roman Catholic woman.
I’m one of 36 first cousins.

The rule of thumb in my very large extended family
(closely linked to “don’t interrupt”) is “don’t butt in.”
If you are not being addressed, your opinion has not been requested,
yet the OP did butt in as if he was a part of a two-way conversation.
Problems resulted from his expressed opinion. I’m not surprised by that.

Maybe things are quite different in families
in Australia and Canada? My family’s rule benefitted all.

It still does.

Actually, I have never heard of that rule. It was a relatively ‘open’ conversation. They obviously weren’t having a one on one personal chat if he talked loud enough for others to hear anyway.

By the way, here, walking up to two people and only adressing one of them, while ignoring the other is actually rude.