Speakers tell pope, synod that parishes should welcome same-sex couples

[LongingSoul]

Actually, yes He did do that. He first called her out on her sin, informing her that she is still married to her first husband and that the others were not her husbands at all. In fact, didnt He even refer to the Samaritans as dogs here? Once she showed faith, conversion of heart, sorrow and repentance to Christ, did He give her this living water.

I feel that misrepresents Catholic teaching. Jesus, through His Real Presence, is the source of living water and we through belief in Him drink the living water. John 7 37-38 -* "On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”*

Our part in our own conversion consists of accepting (not meriting or warranting) Gods forgiveness and mercy that is already on offer through Jesus presence among us. By His presence to us Jesus Himself is that source of living water.

 

[ProVobis]

What do you think this means? I spelled out what I think welcome means.

Or maybe we should ask the translator?

Usually in translations there is no exactness because it’s more of an art than a science. The closest word that comes to mind is usually used in quick translations; it’s often not the ideal.

Just sayin…

 

[Rin]

Justin:

I find your exegesis of the Gospels somewhat original, but I’ll let that be for now. I did not intend to start a polemic.

My point is simply that we can blame society or those who are gay as much as we want, and it will get us nowhere. Even more importantly, it will get those who are alienated for whatever reason nowhere, or worse, drive them away.

Instead, we should consider what we can do differently. Not by changing dogma, but by considering why people feel alienated from the Church, why they feel treated like lepers. Putting it all down to them not wanting to hear what the Church teaches, is too simple. Claiming it is not the Church that is unwelcoming, but their consciences, is also too simple, and frankly, absurd. Remember that it is not only actively gay people who feel unwelcome, but also often chaste gay people. How could the conscience of someone who is chaste make them feel unwelcome in the Church?

Of course, the Church in the metaphysical sense is never unwelcoming. However, parishes can be. Catholics, sometimes even clergy, most certainly can be. And even discipline (again, not doctrine) can be. For a non-Catholic (or alienated Catholic), pointing out the distinction between the Church in the metaphysical sense, and parishes in the social sense, is mere sophistry. Such a distinction is only credible to someone who already accepts Catholic ecclesiology.

I don’t know what the solution should be, but I am as sceptical to the conservative approach as I am to the liberal one. I think too many people are blinded by ideology, liberals and conservatives alike. I think the Church was a better place when there was no conservatism, no liberalism, but simply orthodoxy. Sadly, I doubt these ideologies will disappear anytime soon. I pray that the Synod will make its decisions based on neither, but on sound doctrine, guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Beautiful]

It is not the Church that is unwelcoming. What is unwelcoming for** some** is their conscience. It is their conscience telling them that the lifestyle they live is contrary to God’s law. Some might say they feel unwelcome at mass. But what they really are not welcoming is their conscience being touched by truth.

No one sinner or type of sinner is going to be told that their sin is okay but all sinners are welcome to hear the Word of God.

That ‘some’ is any one of us any time we sin.

My feeling is that both camps of Catholics are currently a bad combination of defensive and tired. Maybe because it is evening here I see it that way.

If we can, with heartfelt prayer share compline and vespers from Divine Office together at the end of the day, then much has been accomplished.

 

[Beautiful]

I pray that the Synod will make its decisions based on neither, but on sound doctrine, guided by the Holy Spirit.

I pray they do. This much I agree with you and only this.

 

[ProVobis]

I pray that the Synod will make its decisions based on neither, but on sound doctrine, guided by the Holy Spirit.

Just a little caution here. You can use this argument; however, do know that Protestants also believe in the Holy Spirit and His guidance.

 

[Rin]

Just a little caution here. You can use this argument; however, do know that Protestants also believe in the Holy Spirit and His guidance.

They do however not believe in sound doctrine.

But yes, I agree with you on this - being guided by the Holy Spirit does not mean everything this Synod does, nor everything earlier Synods or Councils did, is or was automatically in the best interest of the Church. This is ever the more reason to pray for His guidance.

And since I do not see any good solutions to all of this, I will be sceptical if the results of the Synod match any of the solutions I have seen proposed. I will take it as a good sign if liberals and conservatives alike are dissatisfied. And I will take it as a bad sign if either group is dancing with joy. If both dance with joy, I will prepare for the Apocalypse.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

The primary way anyone feels welcome is by seeing other people like them in a place.

If gay people don’t see (chaste!) gay/SSA people in the Church, they won’t feel welcome. But as it is, we recommend chaste gay folks stay super-quiet about their situations, and then unchaste gay people don’t feel welcome.

 

[gracepoole]

Personally, I think that if we “welcomed” same-sex couples, we would be indirectly condoning their same sex relationship and since same sex unchastity is gravely sinful, we should not be condoning whether directly or indirectly a same sex relationship which, in all likelihood, contains same sex unchastity.

I’ve always been confused by this. I’ve known Catholics who refused to attend a baby shower for an unwed teen mother because they felt that doing so would “condone” her sexual behavior. Why does sitting in the same room with someone mean condoning his or her choices? We may struggle to define “welcoming” but I definitely feel comfortable saying this term is not synonymous with shunning.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Given the fact that we are all sinners, I do agree that we have a problem here in the sense that we are considering gay couples’ presence at Mass problematic, as if no one else there has sinned. That’s nonsense and we all know it. I do struggle a little though with whether or not active gay couples repent of sin. Maybe it’s wrong, but I would assume if I saw a gay couple at Mass, especially in the current climate, that they were trying to make a progressive statement against Church teaching, not trying to change their ways in humility to conform to it. That could be my problem. But that’s not to say that isn’t why some come. That doesn’t help; it makes people more defensive; they feel their beliefs are being challenged. In other words, it makes others uncomfortable and like they are being judgmental, when they didn’t even ask to be put in that situation.

 

[RosslynV]

I thought the synod was only comprised of bishops, cardinals – the clergy. Customary for lay people to be in attendance? Well, you learn something new each day.

 

[Eternal_One]

I feel that misrepresents Catholic teaching. Jesus, through His Real Presence, is the source of living water and we through belief in Him drink the living water. John 7 37-38 -* "On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty* come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”

Our part in our own conversion consists of accepting (not meriting or warranting) Gods forgiveness and mercy that is already on offer through Jesus presence among us. By His presence to us Jesus Himself is that source of living water.

Notice that it says “Let anyone who is thirsty…” I.e., let anyone who shows conversion, repentance, loves justice and righteousness, God, His ways, etc. come to Him and drink.

You even acknowledge this when you say “and we through our belief in Him drink this living water.” You have to believe in Him in order to drink this living water. And belief in Him is more than just what we profess with our lips. True belief in Him is how we live our lives.

 

[Rin]

Notice that it says “Let anyone who is thirsty…” I.e., let anyone who shows conversion, repentance, loves justice and righteousness, God, His ways, etc. come to Him and drink.

This is, to be frank, eisegesis.

People may thirst for God, the Sacraments, for forgiveness without having a perfectly formed conscience. It is possible to be of good will and not have a perfectly formed conscience. Sadly, such people are often driven away by lack of charity among Catholics.

 

[kyria]

I’ve always been confused by this. I’ve known Catholics who refused to attend a baby shower for an unwed teen mother because they felt that doing so would “condone” her sexual behavior. Why does sitting in the same room with someone mean condoning his or her choices? We may struggle to define “welcoming” but I definitely feel comfortable saying this term is not synonymous with shunning.

Because many gays actually see it that way. I work in an industry that attracts a lot of lesbians and homosexuals. It is amazing how many of them interpret my friendliness as approval of their lifestyle. They seem to think one is either a hater of gays or a friend of them. They have some difficulty accepting one can be friendly but still not approve of their lifestyle. This may be in part due to some experiencing being shunned by family when they came out, so when another person doesn’t shun them they interpret it as acceptance. I don’t know but this is my experience.

 

[dfp42]

I thought the synod was only comprised of bishops, cardinals – the clergy. Customary for lay people to be in attendance? Well, you learn something new each day.

Yeah I’m surprised of this too. Does anyone know how exactly the lay people were selected to give their own testimony? We’re they random or special picked by the bishops of the county? Also Ive been reading the testimonies on what some of the lay people are saying, it’s pretty wild. Could you imagine what it must be like to represent your country and tell all the bishops your personal opinion.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Because many gays actually see it that way. I work in an industry that attracts a lot of lesbians and homosexuals. It is amazing how many of them interpret my friendliness as approval of their lifestyle. They seem to think one is either a hater of gays or a friend of them. They have some difficulty accepting one can be friendly but still not approve of their lifestyle. This may be in part due to some experiencing being shunned by family when they came out, so when another person doesn’t shun them they interpret it as acceptance. I don’t know but this is my experience.

To me, this sounds like the experience of a dog that most people hurt or kick, so they think that somebody that doesn’t kick them or hurt them must love them.

That’s a very touching thing. And they’re right: Christians do love gay people. We are commanded to do so.

But of course, no one in this culture understands loving a person without approving of their actions. No big deal. I’m happy for them to assume I approve of their actions, unless they gather (indirectly) that I don’t. Of course, if I become friends with them, I will likely try and talk to them about my own sins – which will give them an opening to be vulnerable to me. But otherwise, I don’t have a duty to correct other people’s false beliefs.

 

[CatholicScotRB]

Thanks for keeping us up to date!

I have found that ROME REPORTS is reporting well on the events of the Synod. They have an array of videos that are easy to access and often they are streaming LIVE from the Vatican.

I hope you find them useful too. They’re at www.romereports.com

 

[PaulinVA]

Because many gays actually see it that way. I work in an industry that attracts a lot of lesbians and homosexuals. It is amazing how many of them interpret my friendliness as approval of their lifestyle. They seem to think one is either a hater of gays or a friend of them. They have some difficulty accepting one can be friendly but still not approve of their lifestyle. This may be in part due to some experiencing being shunned by family when they came out, so when another person doesn’t shun them they interpret it as acceptance. I don’t know but this is my experience.

This is precisely why the question of what is “welcoming” is so important. How is it viewed by the congregation? How is it viewed by the people involved? How does it look to the outside world.? These need to be taken into account.

And, yes, it seems on these “culture war” issues that many people think that positions must be binary (for or against) will no room for nuance.

 

[twoshoes]

twoshoes,

I agree. You did not answer my question: In Galatians 1:8, is St Paul instructing not to follow any changes? Did you even bother to read my post?

I read your post and answered your question , maybe not as completely as I could have so I will try again. In reference to St. Paul I believe he was speaking to the Gentiles of his time, uneducated, unable to read or write, simple people, with many false prophets. That being said he was indeed telling them to follow the Gospel, not to change his teachings. I like to remember that one verse out of all that has been written in the New Testament may not in itself be the whole answer. Verse 10: I think this verse is also very instructive," Am I now currying favor with human beings or God. If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a slave of Christ. this verse also should be taken to heart. In a previous post I wrote that change has to be small, big change will cause scandal.

 

[Tigg]

I can’t imagine being barred from Holy Communion for the rest of my life because of early mistakes I made!

It is always about free will and choice. Do we love the Lord our God with all our heart and soul and place Him first in our life? If so, then nothing can keep us from the sacraments.