Speaking in tongues: genuine charism or silly gibberish?

[cazayoux]

…this, of course, is something that can be abused by attention seekers.

Maran atha!

Angel

I don’t mean to say that I think some are looking for attention.
I’m not saying that they want others to see them speaking in tongues.
I tend to think they are proving to themselves that they are connected to the Holy Spirit.

It seems to me that if a Catholic Charismatic would write a book, it could be called “Catholic is Not Enough”.

I know how jaded I sound.
I’m working on being more open minded.
I have friends that are a part of a Charismatic community and they are helping.
I’m just skeptical at this point.

Does someone have to be a part of a ‘community’, to participate in the gifts?
I believe the Holy Spirit can touch us … but it’s not something we stand in line for.

michel

 

[Joe_5859]

I don’t mean to say that I think some are looking for attention.
I’m not saying that they want others to see them speaking in tongues.
I tend to think they are proving to themselves that they are connected to the Holy Spirit.

I think that’s a bit more charitable of an interpretation than simply writing them off as “attention seekers”. I’ve known a good deal of “charismatics” and most of them would definitely not be described as attention seekers.

It seems to me that if a Catholic Charismatic would write a book, it could be called “Catholic is Not Enough”.

That may be true of some charismatics, but not all. I have met some that seem to think, if you aren’t charismatic you’re not fully Catholic (just as there are some “traditionalists” who think that if you don’t have an affinity for all things Latin you’re not fully Catholic). But I also have some very good friends who are “charismatic” but they have it in the proper perspective. They don’t think that all people should be charismatic or that it is the defining attribute of Catholicism. It is simply a way to pray that they have found to be personally spiritually enriching.

I know how jaded I sound.
I’m working on being more open minded.
I have friends that are a part of a Charismatic community and they are helping.
I’m just skeptical at this point.

No problems there. I was extremely skeptical of the Charismatic movement when I first came across it. I then became good friends with people who were involved in it, but were normal people (and very different from the caricature painted by the outside observer). This helped me to realize that, although I didn’t (and still don’t) feel particularly drawn to that type of spirituality, there’s nothing intrinsically problematic with it.

Does someone have to be a part of a ‘community’, to participate in the gifts?
I believe the Holy Spirit can touch us … but it’s not something we stand in line for.

A person absolutely does not have to be part of any sort of “community” to receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit (unless you’re talking about the community of the Church ). Many people choose to find a community of people who share their spirituality and experiences, but usually that comes after the initial experience. It’s not as though you have to join a club, punch a card, and only then do you get the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[guanophore]

I’ll admit ignorance of the Charismatic movement.

I think this is a ministry of the Church that does not commend itself to everyone, just as cloistered living.

*[Had a quick look on Google and YouTube. Saw stuff that reminded me of what one of the nuns that used to teach me mentioned to us when I was a lad; a bit girly, post-Vatican II, singing-round-the-campfire sort of thing].*

If it involves public displays of emotionalism, and abandoning your ordinary self-control, I think it’s suspect.

I agree with you! God has given us a spirit of self control, and the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet.

I was first introduced to the Catholic Charismatic movement at the national conference at Notre Dame in 1979. I was blown away by a whole stadium of faithful Catholics worshipping spontaneously.

You get that in Voodoo and rock concerts. It might be cathartic, but is it Catholic?

I agree with your point. However, people do not cease to need catharsis because they are Catholic. I have seen many devout Catholics receive the gift of laughter or tears in prayer meetings.

The Lord knows what we have need of before we ask it. Some of us do not need as much catharsis as others. Why would you encourage someone to go outside the HS to a secular venue to get it?

I’ve read a lot of occult books, and one theme in them is that you never abandon your self-control to any being, you never let yourself go blank; you may leave yourself open to a possessing spirit.

This is very true, and there are many abuses happening. I have heard of barking and yelling and all manner of strangeness. We judge them by their fruits.

My opinion is that the Holy Spirit came down up on the Apostles and the Virgin Mary, and that they became superior beings because of it i.e. those who saw them under its influence marveled at how eloquent they had become.

This is not a scriptural or Catholic view. The gifts of the HS do not make people “superior beings”. Paul is clear that we hold this treasure in earthen vessels (cracked pots) that the glory of God may be revealed. As He told Mary, they are not blessed because they have spiritual gifts, or gave birth to Christ, but EVEN MORE (rather) blessed because they were obedient to the Word of God.

Their reasoning powers increased, not decreased.

Would it be fair to say that this event prepared a hardy, rough chap like Peter to become the leader and missionary that ultimately died for his Lord, when prior to that he denied Him, and misunderstood Him?

Absolutely!

Happy clapping, writhing around the place, speaking gibberish sounds like the opposite to what the Holy Spirit does.

I agree on the writhing, but clapping of hands is very biblical, and praying in the Spirit does indeed sound like gibberish to those without the gift of interpretation.

I wonder would it be fair to say that there are two kinds of 'Charism'(?) at work here; one, positive, that brings about a distinct improvement in someone that other sober, disinterested people will easily acknowledge, and one, negative, that the recipient only *thinks* is doing them good?

I think this is an excellent observation, and also very scriptural. We know them by their fruits. If any “gift” does not benefit the spiritual life of the believer, then it is likely counterfeit.

 

[guanophore]

Frankly I believe it is demonic activity as often happened during the infamous Toronto Blessing.

When you open yourself up & call on the ‘spirit’ to come into you, an evil force rather than a benign one can easily enter in.

Barking like dogs, clucking like chickens is not remotely human and certainly not divinely-inspired. I cannot understand how people can be so naive.

Voodoo devotees & other occultists regularly call up spirits. ‘Speaking in tongues’ is just another manifestation of this. To be avoided at all costs.

The presence of a counterfeit does not nullify the reality of the true. There were many Pagan beliefs about a saviour that died and rose again. None of this shadowing subtracts from the real.

How do you reconcile your belief with scripture?

1 Cor 14:4-5
5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues…"

 

[guanophore]

Because it allows people to “worship” in in distinctly Protestant styles (i.e., Pentecostal, Assemblies of God) without having to give up their Catholic name. It’s basically 20th-century American Protestantism with a safe, Catholic label.

Do you nullify all that Paul wrote, then, to the Corinthians? Do you believe the gifts he was describing no longer exist?

How do you account for those who have experienced this gift who have never had any personal sojourn in protestant communities?

 

[Rulkiewicz]

The presence of a counterfeit does not nullify the reality of the true. There were many Pagan beliefs about a saviour that died and rose again. None of this shadowing subtracts from the real.

How do you reconcile your belief with scripture?

1 Cor 14:4-5
5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues…"

tobbias88’s beliefs is just another example of how our personal agenda and hinder the true word of God.

He doesn’t “agree” with it, therefore he will not practice it, let a lone teach it, if given the chance.

 

[jcrichton]

Speaking of accusing someone, in this case many someone’s of accusing someone of something, and “something made up… You said: What would I have to gain?”…isn’t that what all of you are doing, accusing charismatic Catholics of pretending, looking for attention, just gibberish, etc.? So, how does it feel to you(all)?

Hi, Christ is all!

…you seem to read only partially… I have not accused charismatic Catholics of pretending… I have stated that not all who claim to be speakin in tongues are (this includes my experiences with non-Catholic groups); I’ve given several reasons for this statement, including St. Paul’s commands to keep orderly while in worship (2 or 3 tops); yet, you continue to demand that I change my mind–I’ve acquiesced to your 2500, all speaking in tongues and all genuine… if you believe it, I accept that you believe it is so.

Here’s a quote on St. Franics:

*Now St Francis, in order to conceal his sanctity, so soon as he entered the room, threw himself upon the bed, pretending to fall asleep. Bernard likewise soon after went to bed, and began to snore as if sleeping soundly. On this, St Francis, thinking that Bernard was really fast asleep, got up and began to pray. Raising his hands and eyes to heaven, he exclaimed with great devotion and fervour, “**My God! my God!” at the same time weeping bitterly; and thus he remained on his knees all night, repeating with great love and fervour the words, “My God! my God!” and none others./***B]
Are you not missing an important point? St. Francis is alone (or expected that he was alone); he made a supplication and this supplication was repetitious… but there was not a mob jumping in with him, and he was not doing this during a worship celebration.

Another note on St. Francis:

St. Francis [of Assisi] passed an entire night repeating: You are “my All.” Being in contemplation, he pronounced these words, as if wishing to say: I have considered You piece by piece, O My Lord, and I found that You are very lovable; now I behold You and see that You are “my All.” St. Bruno was content to say, “O Goodness!” And St. Augustine: “O Beauty ever ancient and ever new!” You are ancient because You are eternal, but You are new because You bring a new sweetness to my heart. These are words of contemplation.
[Cf. Treatise Bk. 6, ch. 5].

Again, private prayer, contemplation, exaltation… not during the celebration of Mass nor while among dozens or hundreds of fellow believers who were chanting and groaning…

You said:

“but you must agree that 10 to 20 people going off on chants that can last and last is very repetitious”

I would say, try telling that to a group of monks or sisters who rise at all hours and repeat certain prayers over and over.
Have you noticed how orderly they are? This exercise is done in such sublime unity that you think that they have rehearsed it for years! And when they stop… you can hear a flower’s petal fall… they complement their spoken praises with such silent adoration that it even has an unearthly feel to it… it’s as if their spirits were being lifted to Heaven!

If it’s truly praising the Lord, and I am speaking of Catholic Charismatic worship, considering St. Francis and others repeated words all night and on many occasions, what’s the problem?

Again, the manner in which it is done: very orderly and superbly orchestrated vs haphazardly, anything goes and under some “must be done” mandate.

I’ll say it once more, my experiences with charismatic movements have produced my views of charismatics (both Catholics and non-Catholics); while I do not deny that there can be genuine worshipers, I have determined (from my experiences) that not all who chant or articulate are genuine in their worship; this, of course, does not mean that everyone else’s experience is the same nor that all charismatics are unauthentic.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

At a particular event I am referring to, not all speak in tongues, many Catholics come to the conference and experience the Spirit there. Many do speak in tongues. But most all sing and praise the Lord, and most all experience reverential worship with the Eucharist at the center. It has nothing to so with how close to God I am or others compared to another. There are many paths to holiness. I just don’t like when people sit back and think their way is the only way/path if in fact it isn’t.

Hi, Christisall!

…I misunderstood the number; please understand that I do not believe that there’s only one way to do something… I believe that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are meant to benefit the Body of Christ and that all who truly Believe are blessed not only in receiving them but in discovering how to use them to edify the Church…

Yet, when someone tells me that I am less spiritual or immature spiritually for not possessing a skill/gift or for not accepting what they believe is sound doctrine/behavior, I question their “thinking/doing” against the Teachings of the Church… so rather than to listen to “you must be able to” or “you have to” or “we can teach you to,” I look to the Church to determine how wrong I am or how right they are…

Our major difference is that you accept everything while I question everything–I do not believe that you are disingenuous nor that you have not had a different experience in the Faith; I simply know what I have experienced, though I do not doubt that the Holy Spirit can give Believers the Gift of tongues.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I don’t mean to say that I think some are looking for attention.
I’m not saying that they want others to see them speaking in tongues.
I tend to think they are proving to themselves that they are connected to the Holy Spirit.

It seems to me that if a Catholic Charismatic would write a book, it could be called “Catholic is Not Enough”.

I know how jaded I sound.
I’m working on being more open minded.
I have friends that are a part of a Charismatic community and they are helping.
I’m just skeptical at this point.

Does someone have to be a part of a ‘community’, to participate in the gifts?
I believe the Holy Spirit can touch us … but it’s not something we stand in line for.

michel

…when I said attention-seekers it included (at least in my mind) those who wish to be “seen” or “found” as more spiritual… somehow speaking in tongues, for some, is equated to being more spiritual–they are granted special privileges by God that others do not merit!

The Scriptures tell us that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are given for spiritual growth and the edification of the Church; yet, St. Paul makes it clear that it is the Holy Spirit who determines to whom He would endow these Gifts!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Journeying_Jude]

I have had a few experiences within CCR groups. During one experience, I could feel the presence of the Holy Spirit. I sensed pure Love coursing through me. I just wanted the Spirit to use me as He would. Beyond the first few syllables, I had no idea what I was saying – neither sounds nor meaning. I felt as though I had no control over my tongue, except, perhaps to be able to stop. It was moving so quickly. If it wasn’t for the Love, I would have been afraid.
I tried some time later with another group. I know it wasn’t real. Since then, I have experienced the Holy Spirit in various ways, but not through tongues.
So, I feel that Charismatics are sincere. Some are actually receiving special graces. Others are merely trying. The answer may be to “Let go and let God.”

 

[Journeying_Jude]

I don’t mean to say that I think some are looking for attention.
I’m not saying that they want others to see them speaking in tongues.
I tend to think they are proving to themselves that they are connected to the Holy Spirit.

It seems to me that if a Catholic Charismatic would write a book, it could be called “Catholic is Not Enough”.

I know how jaded I sound.
I’m working on being more open minded.
I have friends that are a part of a Charismatic community and they are helping.
I’m just skeptical at this point.

Does someone have to be a part of a ‘community’, to participate in the gifts?
I believe the Holy Spirit can touch us … but it’s not something we stand in line for.

michel

Hi Cazayoux
(This is my first attempt to quote and reply. I have 2 points.) First, re community: Community is not necessary, of course. Yet, a large Charasmatic gathering offers something special – many people with sincere devotion gathered in one place at one time. That brings a lot of love – much of it agape love. The secret is out. That Love is the Love of God. The Love of God is the Holy Spirit. :extrahappy:
Now, for my second point: Interior Castle by St. Teresa of Avila and The Dark Night and The Spiritual Castle by St. John of the Cross, to name a few, tell of experiences that are not BEYOND Catholic – but the ULTIMATE of Catholic spirituality. When we acknowledge that “we are all called to be saints,” we begin to yearn and strive for opportunities to experience God’s Love more fully and to become His instruments in the world – to share the Love He gives us with others. For some, experiences in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement serve as part of that striving and yearning. Ubi caritas…
God bless you!

 

[Layman]

People forget Christ is a king. The king. In the presence of a good, kind and powerful king, you show respect.

Here’s a notion: The Devil is having a good laugh at what he’s got people to do during the Mass over the last 40+ years. The King comes and his courtiers are acting like clowns.

Your experience may vary.

 

[rusty20]

I’m of the same opinion as you, I had to suffer listening to this one time at a prayer meeting.

I thought the purpose of speaking in tongues was so everyone there could understand, and since everyone in the room could understand English, then why would we need to speak in tongues in the first-place ?

And if they were speaking in tongues then it wasn’t very successful, because I didn’t have a clue what was coming out of their mouths.

SOOOOO, why did the thread even continue after this response on page 1??? This is all that has to be said…

 

[cazayoux]

SOOOOO, why did the thread even continue after this response on page 1??? This is all that has to be said…

I’m with you.

My take, as stated earlier, is that those that speak in tongues today are doing it for themselves, not for the others around them.
It seems they have a lack of faith and need to prove to themselves that they are connected to the Holy Spirit.
I think many are not doing it just to be seen by others.
But where is the **benefit **of this gift.

1 Cor 14: 5-6
[5] Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless some one interprets, so that the church may be edified.
[6] Now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how shall I **benefit **you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?

Does someone at a Charismatic Catholic session get up and interpret what others are ‘saying’ in tongues?

michel

 

[Joe_5859]

I’m with you.

My take, as stated earlier, is that those that speak in tongues today are doing it for themselves, not for the others around them.
It seems they have a lack of faith and need to prove to themselves that they are connected to the Holy Spirit.
I think many are not doing it just to be seen by others.
But where is the **benefit **of this gift.

I don’t think that’s entirely accurate. Most “charismatics” would probably say they are doing it for God, not themselves. They are praising God in words that they themselves do not understand because God is so far above our human language that no English words exist to truly praise God the way He deserves to be praised.

It also strikes me as a bit unfair to label them as “lacking in faith”. It’s not for us to judge the level of their faith.

Does someone at a Charismatic Catholic session get up and interpret what others are ‘saying’ in tongues?

Sometimes, yes. I’ve seen it happen.

 

[myredeemerlives]

I speak in tongues and it does sound like gibberish! I’ve also heard one tongues message interpreted, two people must interpret and they both got the same message.

 

[Church_Militant]

I speak in tongues and it does sound like gibberish! I’ve also heard one tongues message interpreted, two people must interpret and they both got the same message.

But does that happen every time? I ask because the New Testament says that it is supposed and that if it doesn’t then it is not from God.

 

[cazayoux]

I speak in tongues and it does sound like gibberish! I’ve also heard one tongues message interpreted, two people must interpret and they both got the same message.

I’m curious … how do we know they got the same message.
One person gives their interpretation and the other says, “yeah, me too”.

michel

 

[Journeying_Jude]

I’m with you.

My take, as stated earlier, is that those that speak in tongues today are doing it for themselves, not for the others around them.

But where is the **benefit **of this gift.

michel

From my experience, the greatest benefit is to those who speak in tongues: an increase in Faith, Hope and Love (agape love) – a greater opening to the Holy Spirit’s inspirations and guidance – and, sometimes, a healing.

 

[cazayoux]

From my experience, the greatest benefit is to those who speak in tongues: an increase in Faith, Hope and Love (agape love) – a greater opening to the Holy Spirit’s inspirations and guidance – and, sometimes, a healing.

So your saying the benefit of the gift is directed toward self.
Shouldn’t it be for the edification and teaching of the community?
1 Cor 14:5

michel