Speaking in tongues: genuine charism or silly gibberish?

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Lepanto said:
I agree 100%. Claiming to “speak in tongues” is no different than claiming to see a Marian apparition. It’s up to the Church to decide if it’s genuine, or faked, or if it’s an honest mistake, or if it’s diabolical.

The Church says as much in Vatican II’s Lumen Gentium, paragraph12:

“Extraordinary gifts are not to be sought after, nor are the fruits of apostolic labor to be presumptuously expected from their use; but judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church, to whose special competence it belongs, not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to that which is good.”

Here’s the source:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

In the meantime, I think St. Paul’s example is best. Here, he rebukes the charismatics at Corinth:

“I would rather speak five words with my mind, than ten thousand words in a tongue.” 1 Cor 14:19
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You gave half of the story.
Why do some folks have such a peeve about tongues?
It’s one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit imparts his gifts as He determines. (1Cor.12:7-11)

Paul says in 1Cor.14:1 "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2. For anyone who speaks in a tongues does not speak to men but to God.

Verse 18 reads, “I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 but in church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.”
Speaking in tongues should be for private devotions.

22."Tongues , then are a sign , not for believers, but unbelievers.
Read chapter 1Cor.14 for the full story. 🙂

God bless,
jean8
 
M_Leakos said:
I have a question. Since Satan is known as the great deceiver, are you concerned that sometimes when you speak in tongues you are speaking something the devil might want you to say?
How do you know?
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It is helpful if you familiarize yourself with discerning “the voice of God” from “the voice of satan”.

The voice of satan is spastic, loud, excited, upsetting, non-harmonic, sometimes angry or confusing…however, the voice of God is quiet, calm, peaceful, insightful, clear, harmonic. God’s voice leaves you with a feeling of peace…satan’s voice leaves you with a feeling of anxiety or confusion.

At first, your discernment may be difficult to do…but the closer you get to God, the easier it will be to notice something that is not of God.

I hope that this helps you. 🙂

God bless!
John
 
By the way, the jury is out with me on whether or not tongues is available for everyone. A reading of 1 Cor 12 would lead one to say “no.” And, I, in a non-pressure way, have prayed for people to be both filled with the Spirit and prayed for the gift of tongues over people, where neither have spoken in tongues. These people genuinely desired the gift, and I really didn’t think they did anything to block it. I know there are those who would say I am incorrect, and that the gift is available to all who ask for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. However, in the scripture sections relating to being filled with the Spirit, there are a variety of manifestations when one is filled, with some instances when tongues are not mentioned.
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Reply: My dear friends in Christ. “Gifts of the Spirit” are just that… GIFTS. They are not to be sought, only humbly accepted if offered. Amen?👍

**If received as a “result of prayer” I would be VERY suspecious of their actual origin! This might explain why they are causing division! **

Nothing from God, NOTHING FROM GOD, can cause evil!

Mt. Chapter 7: "
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, * that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. 15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. 18 A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits*.
I think that part of the problem is when we make demands… St. Paul says “…are all prophets, are all Apostles…” and “…only One Spirit Who Gives all according to His Will…” when we forget this… we wallow in error. As for the manisfestation of the Gift of tongues, it was a visible sign that was necessary during the inception (coming out if you will) of the Church–though it is not necessary now, it has never ceased to be a Gift since the Parusia is still to come; only then, as Paul tells us, will only Love remain!
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I think your right!

God bless,
PJM m.c.
 
PJM said:
Reply: My dear friends in Christ. “Gifts of the Spirit” are just that… GIFTS. They are not to be sought, only humbly accepted if offered. Amen?👍

**If received as a “result of prayer” I would be VERY suspecious of their actual origin! This might explain why they are causing division! **

Nothing from God, NOTHING FROM GOD, can cause evil!

Mt. Chapter 7: "
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, * that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. 15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. 18 A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits*.
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It is my understanding that the ordinary means of impartation of the gifts of the spirit is indeed a result of prayer – prayed by the bishop at confirmation. And certainly the confirmation candidates are eager (or should be eager) to receive all that the Holy Spirit wants to give them. As to the gift of tongues being received or released after prayer of another (say, a priest), I would question why one would be suspicious of the origin of that gift. I’m not saying people can’t be fooled, or caught up in emotion based upon a desire for that gift. But if one devoted to Christ, who’s life bears good fruit, has the sense to pray over someone hungry to serve Christ for a gift that will help him better serve Christ and the Church, I think the Holy Spirit will honor that. It doesn’t mean the person will always receive the particular gift, but if one does receive what appears to be a gift of tongues, I don’t think we should rush in and immediately doubt its validity.

I also agree that nothing from God, in and of itself, can cause evil. But our attitude toward that gift from God can produce an evil result. For instance, our money is a gift from God, and it, in and of itself is not evil. However, “…the love of money is the root of all evils; it is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced their hearts with many pangs.” 1 Tim 6:10 Therefore, we can gratefully recieve money as a gift from God, but the moment we start “loving” it, that “love” will be a root that produces all sorts of evil fruit. I think this analogy fits with spiritual gifts as well. The spiritual gift isn’t bad – it is good, and is useful in helping us love and build up the Church. In other words, its proper use and practice is very good. But when we start to love, or “worship,” that gift for its own sake, we go down the path to bad fruit.

As to the concern about division in the Church being caused by the use of what some say are tongues, I think that any division being caused can be shared by those on both sides of the issue – by some pushy folks who insist that everyone must speak in tongues, and who parade the gift, wearing it on their sleeves; and also by folks who would condemn the use of the gift by a particular group, without being willing to look people on a case by case basis. It has been my experience that those who I know who speak in tongues usually have a life characterized by good fruit.

As I have said several times in this string, the last three popes have been generally supportive and appreciative of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal – seeing it as a movement that has stirred up the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the Church. They simply encourage those in that movement to remain true and loyal to the Church.

Thanks for listening.

In His love,
Chris
 
By accident, I came across a post by Kentuckyliz alleging that I believe that speaking in tongues is “normative” for Catholics. I am not sure what she means by the word “normative.” The generally accepted meaning of that word is that what is normative is something “required” or “binding” on members of a group. To the best of my knowledge and belief, I have never stated in conversation or in writing anywhere at anytime to anyone that speaking in tongues is required for any Catholic. Hence, that post is, objectively speaking, a grave misrepresentation of my views (I do not judge the subjective intent of Kentuckyliz).

Speaking in tongues is not required for salvation or to be Catholic; but, in my personal experience, it is a wonderful gift of praise that any charitable Catholic would desire for any other Catholic, just as we desire and should desire good things and gifts for others. If you really are interested in an accurate portrayal my views, rather than in a caricature of them, take a look firsthand at my blog, CatholicAnalysis.blogspot.com, where there are abundant resources on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and on the related topic of praying in tongues (a topic which, by the way, is not the most salient or crucial aspect of the Renewal).

Peace,

Oswald Sobrino
Catholic Analysis Blogger
 
Sobrino said:
By accident, I came across a post by Kentuckyliz alleging that I believe that speaking in tongues is “normative” for Catholics. I am not sure what she means by the word “normative.” The generally accepted meaning of that word is that what is normative is something “required” or “binding” on members of a group. To the best of my knowledge and belief, I have never stated in conversation or in writing anywhere at anytime to anyone that speaking in tongues is required for any Catholic. Hence, that post is, objectively speaking, a grave misrepresentation of my views (I do not judge the subjective intent of Kentuckyliz).

Speaking in tongues is not required for salvation or to be Catholic; but, in my personal experience, it is a wonderful gift of praise that any charitable Catholic would desire for any other Catholic, just as we desire and should desire good things and gifts for others. If you really are interested in an accurate portrayal my views, rather than in a caricature of them, take a look firsthand at my blog, CatholicAnalysis.blogspot.com, where there are abundant resources on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and on the related topic of praying in tongues (a topic which, by the way, is not the most salient or crucial aspect of the Renewal).

Peace,

Oswald Sobrino
Catholic Analysis Blogger
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sobrino,
Speaking in tongues is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It may sound like gibberish to those who do not have this gift, but they should pray for the gift themselves. they’ll soon change their mind. 🙂

God bless,
jean8
 
From a homily given today:
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 "There may be some who are attracted to this [charismatic] movement by the apparently extraordinary manifestations of the spirit. Sometimes this is for vanity – they want to have these “powers” for show and to appear to others to be more holy than they are. Sometimes it is because they are too attached to the things of the senses and fail to raise themselves up to the things of the spirit. Yet there are others who simply want to live their faith intensely, boldly, publicly, and they find a venue to do this in the charismatic movement; this is why it appeals particularly to the enthusiasm and idealism of young people.

 "But the fact is none of these things, prayer meetings, swaying, babbling, laying hands on each other and so forth ever make a person more holy. Yet many of their principles are diametrically opposed to Catholicism. For this reason, I encourage all of you to avoid the charismatic movement, and be at peace practicing your Catholicism. All the evidence is that it is not from God. This evaluation has been amply corroborated in my own experience by cases, by which I mean, the endless list of bad examples of self-styled charismatics with whom I have dealt again and again."
Full text of homily:
fatherpaul.org/didaskalos/homilies/2008-2009/2008-12-14–Adv03B.html
 
The thread that will never die … never… :eek:

So … it’s pretty much understandable that some … yep, it’s gibberish, selfish manuver to make them think that they are holy … others may actually receive fruits from the Spirit …

So the ANSWER to the never dying question is : BOTH!

There is not either/or … it’s both. And we have to leave it all up to God to be the judge.

🤷
 
Lepanto said:
From a homily given today:
Code: 
 "There may be some who are attracted to this [charismatic] movement by the apparently extraordinary manifestations of the spirit. Sometimes this is for vanity – they want to have these “powers” for show and to appear to others to be more holy than they are. Sometimes it is because they are too attached to the things of the senses and fail to raise themselves up to the things of the spirit. Yet there are others who simply want to live their faith intensely, boldly, publicly, and they find a venue to do this in the charismatic movement; this is why it appeals particularly to the enthusiasm and idealism of young people.

 "But the fact is none of these things, prayer meetings, swaying, babbling, laying hands on each other and so forth ever make a person more holy. Yet many of their principles are diametrically opposed to Catholicism. For this reason, I encourage all of you to avoid the charismatic movement, and be at peace practicing your Catholicism. All the evidence is that it is not from God. This evaluation has been amply corroborated in my own experience by cases, by which I mean, the endless list of bad examples of self-styled charismatics with whom I have dealt again and again."
Full text of homily:
fatherpaul.org/didaskalos/homilies/2008-2009/2008-12-14–Adv03B.html
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How sad.

“Jesus Christ our Lord, whose footsteps we’re to follow, called his betrayer ‘friend’ and willingly handed himself over to his crucifiers. Our friends, then, are all those who unjustly inflict upon us tests and ordeals, shame and injury, sorrows and torments, martyrdom and death. They are the ones we should love most, for what they’re really inflicting upon us is eternal life.”

St. Francis of Assisi
Rule of 1221
Chapter XXII
 
DJgang said:
The thread that will never die … never… :eek:
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Tell me about it! I think it’s the only thread I’m subscribed to that regularly gets resurrected after lengthy periods of inactivity. And then the discussion goes on… 🙂
 
Lepanto said:
From a homily given today:
Code: 
 "There may be some who are attracted to this [charismatic] movement by the apparently extraordinary manifestations of the spirit. Sometimes this is for vanity – they want to have these “powers” for show and to appear to others to be more holy than they are.
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I think this is true. Sadly, this is human nature.
Lepanto said:
Sometimes it is because they are too attached to the things of the senses and fail to raise themselves up to the things of the spirit.
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I think this may be true, but one must remember that God made us to be inherintly sensual creatures. This is one reason, I believe that His physical Presence has passed into the sacraments. We apprehend Him through physical elements of water, light (fire) oil, bread, wine, etc. I think He established these things because we are sensate beings, and we need them. At the same time, it is right not to get too attached to the physical senses, and to be able to aspire to the intangible. I will not say that these sensate elements cannot also be “of the Spirit”, as we believe we are born again of water and spirit, and that the Spirit is not separated from the water.
Lepanto said:
Yet there are others who simply want to live their faith intensely, boldly, publicly, and they find a venue to do this in the charismatic movement; this is why it appeals particularly to the enthusiasm and idealism of young people.
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This was the case for me, certainly. I think this is also the case for those who get into it, and stay in it. Around my area, there are a number of grandparents involved, who entered when the first wave came through in the late 60’s and have been serving ever since. Passionate, committed, sold out Catholics, that lot.
Lepanto said:
Code: 
"But the fact is none of these things, prayer meetings, swaying, babbling, laying hands on each other and so forth ever make a person more holy.
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I suppose one could also say “attending Mass, praying the Rosary, and making pilgrimmages never make a person more holy”. Would that be as true? It could be. What matters is the disposition of the heart to God’s grace. There are many spiritual practices that can help one grow in the faith. If one is not properly disposed, one can attend Mass and not become more holy.
Lepanto said:
Yet many of their principles are diametrically opposed to Catholicism. For this reason, I encourage all of you to avoid the charismatic movement, and be at peace practicing your Catholicism.
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I am not sure what “principles” these might be, but this statement seems to imply that the Charismatic renewal is not part of Catholicism, which is false. What movement is being referenced here?
Lepanto said:
All the evidence is that it is not from God. This evaluation has been amply corroborated in my own experience by cases, by which I mean, the endless list of bad examples of self-styled charismatics with whom I have dealt again and again."
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This is to bad. I wish he could have some fellowship with the holy priests and religious that I have known who are charismatic.
Lepanto said:
Full text of homily:
fatherpaul.org/didaskalos/homilies/2008-2009/2008-12-14–Adv03B.html
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It seems that this homily agrees with your view, am I right about that?
 
CHRIS_DICKSON said:
How sad.

“Jesus Christ our Lord, whose footsteps we’re to follow, called his betrayer ‘friend’ and willingly handed himself over to his crucifiers. Our friends, then, are all those who unjustly inflict upon us tests and ordeals, shame and injury, sorrows and torments, martyrdom and death. They are the ones we should love most, for what they’re really inflicting upon us is eternal life.”

St. Francis of Assisi
Rule of 1221
Chapter XXII
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Great quote Chris! 👍
 
Why not ask Pope John Paul II what he thinks? This quote is from the special hour and a half audience with the Pope in Vatican City on December 11, 1979:

“…This is my first meeting with you, Catholic charismatics . . . I have always belonged to this renewal in the Holy Spirit. . . . I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action. The world is much in need of this action of the Holy Spirit, and it needs many instruments for this action. . . . Through this action, the Holy Spirit comes to the human spirit, and from this moment we begin to live again, to find our very selves, to find our identity, our total humanity. Consequently, I am convinced that this movement is a very important component in the total renewal of the church, in this spiritual renewal of the church.”

Then:

This quote is from the Pope’s private audience on May 15, 1987.

"Dear Brothers and Sisters:
“In the peace and joy of the Holy Spirit I welcome all of you who have come to Rome for the Sixth International Leaders’ Conference of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. I am very happy to meet with you today and I wish to assure you that your love for Christ and your openness to the Spirit of Truth are a most valuable witness in the Church’s mission in the world. . . . This year [1987] marks the 20th anniversary of the charismatic renewal in the Catholic Church. The vigor and fruitfulness of the renewal certainly attest to the powerful presence of the Holy Spirit at work in the Church in these years after the Second Vatican Council. . . . The charismatic renewal is an eloquent manifestation of this vitality today, a bold statement of what ‘the Spirit is saying to the churches’ (Revelations 2:7) as we approach the close of the second millennium. For us, the Spirit of the Lord is upon us, each one of us, who have been born anew in the saving waters of Baptism. The Spirit prompts us to go forth in faith ‘to preach good news to the poor’ the poor in material things, the poor in spiritual gifts, the poor in mind and body.”

Then finally:

Here is an extract from the private address the Holy Father granted on Saturday, April 4, 1998:

“This is a year [dedicated to the Holy Spirit in preparation for the Great Jubilee] which you, the members of the Renewal, are called to live with special intensity and commitment. . . . How can we fail to give thanks for the precious spiritual fruits that the Renewal has produced in the life of the Church and in the lives of so many people? How many lay faithful—men and women, youth, adults, and older people—have been able to experience the amazing power of the Spirit and His gifts in their lives! How many people have rediscovered their faith, a desire for prayer, the power and beauty of the Word of God, which is expressed in generous service for the mission of the Church! How many lives were deeply changed! For all of this I wish to praise and thank the Holy Spirit with you today. . . . I thank you for what you are doing, and I ask you to persevere in your commitment.”

For me personally, I would rather follow the kindness and gentleness of our beloved Pope John Paul II in Rome than someone from Detroit or Cleveland or wherever…it is like trying to explain to an athiest how much you love the Lord. If they have no clue as to the love you feel, then how are they to understand about God? If they’ve never been loved, then how can you explain to them about love? If they’ve never experienced God’s love being poured out upon them and filling them to overflowing with His presence, then how can we expect people to understand it. But to receive it, they must humble themselves before God and simply ask Him for it…but the key word here is “Humble Themselves”…
 
I find it interesting that people who do not speak in tongues and speak out against it, are so certain they are right! If I have never tasted banana cream pie, how can I dare to talk about how bad it is? I want to share that having a prayer language in tongues has drawn me closer to Jesus and given me a strong desire to intercede for whatever the Holy Spirit places on my heart. This is because the Holy Spirit intercedes in me as I pray in tongues." I want to pray with my spirit and also with my mind, I want to sing with my spirit and also with my mind as well." 1 Cor.
One last note: I have never encountered a person desiring the gifts to be puffed up and boastful. Usually, it is because they have a need they are praying for, or someone else they are praying for and feel this will enhance their prayers. So, in my opinion, it is out of great love for Jesus and others that they even seek it.
 
Viola said:
I find it interesting that people who do not speak in tongues and speak out against it, are so certain they are right! If I have never tasted banana cream pie, how can I dare to talk about how bad it is? I want to share that having a prayer language in tongues has drawn me closer to Jesus and given me a strong desire to intercede for whatever the Holy Spirit places on my heart. This is because the Holy Spirit intercedes in me as I pray in tongues." I want to pray with my spirit and also with my mind, I want to sing with my spirit and also with my mind as well." 1 Cor.
One last note: I have never encountered a person desiring the gifts to be puffed up and boastful. Usually, it is because they have a need they are praying for, or someone else they are praying for and feel this will enhance their prayers. So, in my opinion, it is out of great love for Jesus and others that they even seek it.
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I agree, but I think we need to take into account that those persons on this thread that speak against these gifts of the HS have been exposed to many serious abuses, and apparently little or no witnesses to sanctity in the charismatic renewal. Having myself witnessed many of the abuses of the Latin Mass after the “spirit of Vatican 2” ran rampant in the last 40 years, I could just as easily discount the whole Latin Rite. I think it is a mistake, but I understand how it happens.
 
Viola said:
I find it interesting that people who do not speak in tongues and speak out against it, are so certain they are right! If I have never tasted banana cream pie, how can I dare to talk about how bad it is? I want to share that having a prayer language in tongues has drawn me closer to Jesus and given me a strong desire to intercede for whatever the Holy Spirit places on my heart. This is because the Holy Spirit intercedes in me as I pray in tongues." I want to pray with my spirit and also with my mind, I want to sing with my spirit and also with my mind as well." 1 Cor.
One last note: I have never encountered a person desiring the gifts to be puffed up and boastful. Usually, it is because they have a need they are praying for, or someone else they are praying for and feel this will enhance their prayers. So, in my opinion, it is out of great love for Jesus and others that they even seek it.
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What I truly find interesting is that “all” must speak in tongues or not have an opinion on it–that’s very much the experience I have had with those that determined that I was not spiritual enough or truly believed in God because I did not accept their “assembly-line” theology (one goes in for say “speaking in tongues” and violá one just bent the Holy Spirit’s Will to one’s will).

Ever witness a riot (even if on television)? Do you truly believe that those who destroy and pillage are just acting out against an oppressive and unfair government/society?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
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