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jcrichton
Guest
I do not follow… do you want people to agree with you, state their disbelief, challange the incedent…?
Maran atha!
Angel
- Status
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
I think that this is what some of us are stating… speaking in tongues only one of many Gifts and all Gifts are given for the edification of the individual and the Church–but, as St. Paul, stated: “God is not a God of chaos but of order…”For me its difficult to believe that ‘ the speaking in tongues practice ‘ is the genuine charism .
I personally a little bit bewildered at the behavior of the followers who practice this ecstatic experience.
The Divine Service in the Catholic Cathedral is the Divine Service.
It’s the service in the state of peace and concentration on God’s presence , but in the state of peace , and not in the state of confusion .
And you hear the sermons , which are for every body , and which are practical and with understanding of reality.
I can not imagine at the Catholic Cathedral the jargons or cant expressions which amuse the mood of young people , I can not imagine the practice of holy laughter , rolling across the floor , excessive crying or weeping.
Just because of the literal approach to the Bible , we must follow the examples of Daniel who fell to the ground or Saul when he was on the road to Damasus .
Also , I personally sure that the God’s work in the heart of the Christrian is more about regeneration and rebirth of the conscience , by the rebirth of the conscience the rebirth of the Spirit can be proved.
And that’s a most important aspect in the walking and living by the Spirit.
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
I must confess that I am ignorant as to the content of “Vatican II,” but I doubt very much that the Pope and the Bishops created a *deconstruct manual *for the Catholic Church… could it not be an abuse of license by the various local Bishops, Pastors, Priests, and laity?
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
Though I suspect you are using correct terms when translating, you are incorrect in your determination; this particular passage speaks of the end of times: the Parusia. Christ’s Second Coming will bring all prophecies and preaching to a stand still: at the Judgment and Resurrection only the Gift of Love will not cease!
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
But Paul is not stating that the Church at Corinth was spiritually mature; he is asserting that, as Christians, we are to grow into perfection (Christ) and that only when He is Revealed would we have come into the fulness of our sojourn: we will know Him and He Is!
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
Hi Ruby T.!I say this with love and kindness…
I don’t understand how anyone can claim that speaking in tongues is gibberish. The Bible - the WORD of God repeatedly discusses speaking in tongues as a gift of the Spirit. What I hear in this post is that some folks think that is is okay to have an opinion which is not in line with what the Bible (the Word of God) tells us. Now in my view that is self appointed gibberish. Read your Bible people and not only Acts or Corinthians see Romans.
Romans 12:5,6
“so we are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another”.
“And since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let each excersise them accordingly”
How can you have an opinion that clearly refutes what the bible says? Your opinions are mere fleshly statements… look to the Bible for your answers. If you believe the Bible then there is no debate, speaking in tongues is a gift if the spirit. Only God decides who recieves this gift. Who are you fleshly beings to decide what God had given. Pray for these gifts in earnest so that you may be closer to God and awaken your Spirit. Don’t dismiss them as man made, if they were man made they would not be mentioned in the Bible.
Romans11:34 “For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?”
Or WHO HAS GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the Glory forever Amen."
and Amen.
I think that there are several levels of believers who have had very distict experiences with “speaking in tongues.”
There’s a wonderful passage in Scriptures that states: “…you believe in God? …the Devil also believes and trembles…”
It is not enough to say “I believe.”
Ditto for speaking in tongues… I cannot believe that all claims are valid, specially when some who make such claim lord their “gift/ability” over others… and some still go into the extreme of claiming that those who do not speak in tongues or accept their claim are lacking in faith or are immature in the faith…
Understand that I am not doubting the Holy Scriptures nor the Church… the human mind is a perplexing tool: even the most intelligent people can foolishly fall into “trend/click” fellowship: if it is claimed/expected they manage to “be it.”
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Kathy!
…without the specifics it is hard to tell… but Scriptures speak of the fullness of times, when the Holy Spirit will be given to the world and many will have visions and dreams… further, there is a constant battle between the Spirit and the flesh; there can be a number of reasons why you’ve had such a dream/mare… if it is a recurring event try what I did… practice chanting “Jesus” and memorize a particular passage of the Holy Scriptures (Psal 23 or “greater is He who is in me than he who is in the world” or something else that relates to Yahweh God’s protection); soon you will take your prayer into the subconscious and God’s Holy Spirit will guide your step even in the darkest path!
Welcome to the forum!
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
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M_Leakos
Guest
I knew a lady who stated she would go into her childrens’ room and pray over them in tongues. She didn’t know the meaning of what she was saying and I asked why she wouldn’t just pray in words that she understood ?
B
BigRedpg51
Guest
Praying in the charismatic gift of tongues is very little understood by people who do not do it…and not even completely comprehended by people who do.
First of all, it is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Second of all, it is a language not of the ear…but of the spirit. Third of all, there is no “I” in the gift of tongues – no ego. This method of prayer is simply our spirit praying to the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit responding to us. You can pray in tongues even without moving your own tongue…simply with your thoughts.
One of the most powerful of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, when we pray in tongues we ask God to show us what to pray for…show us what is the real problem (not just what appears on the surface). Then, we target our prayer toward asking God to solve that problem.
The gift of prayer tongues – not to be confused with the prophetic gift of tongues (a whole different gift) – is given when God wishes to bestow it upon a person, for His reasons, at His time, and to be used as He sees fit. Many of the other gifts are manifested using the gift of prayer tongues, such as the gift of healing, the gift of faith, the gift of word of knowledge, the gift of discernment.
Not all people who claim to have the ‘gift of tongues’ truly do have it. As has been previously stated, there are a lot of egos out there…and sometimes a person just makes a lot of uncomprehensible noise, thinking that they’re exhibiting the gift of tongues. In truth, this may be just a self-satisfying emotional ‘high’ that they’re on, resulting in nothing but ‘wildfire’.
Praying in tongues is truly one of the most personal gifts. In this process, the person opens their soul and their heart up to God completely – in true humility (remember, there’s no “I”) – and asking Him to heal…repair…reveal…relieve…bless…protect…guide…(whatever the particular need is).
Personally speaking, I’ve used this beautiful method of prayer many times over the years…and at times, the results have been amazing!
When looking at the “Gift of Tongues”…don’t make the mistake of seeing it only with your human eyes and your human mind. It’s a deeply spiritual gift – a tool, given by God for His own purpose – and to understand it you have to look at it from a spiritual perspective.
Look at it this way: If it were wrong to let God manifest the gift of tongues through a person – then He wouldn’t do it, would He?
God bless and keep you all in His loving graces!
John
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M_Leakos
Guest
Why would you speak something even you don’t even know what you are saying?
J
jcrichton
Guest
*Hi, Mark!
I think that John (Big Red) has owned up to the truth of speaking in tongues… though not all sound is genuine speech, there are genuine experiences of speaking in tongue… the problem is that we (humans) are always either skeptical or needy of acceptance; those in the movements who have placed so much attention on the Gift of speaking in tongues (as with many movements) have gone into extremes and have forgotten the sin of pride (the absence of humility); by promoting that one particular Gift over all others and by espausing it with its own brand of doctrine (’…all true/mature Believers must accept/have the Gift…’) they have had a negative impact on mainstream Catholics (no speak it); they have also forgotten what John has slightly touched on: “personal relationship with God.”
It is this personal relationship that St. Paul speaks on when he attests that the Holy Spirit prays for us in a manner which we do not comprehend as He is enhancing our own spirit’s prayers with a spiritual language (if we could call God’s form of communication a language) or form that is intelligible only to God.
But it is not necessary for us to convince others of our personal expereince with a Gift–St. Francis of Assisi, once he awoke spiritually, was so humble that he did not even seek the Office of the Priesthood for he did not deem himself worthy of such honor… yet, the Holy Spirit used him to renovate the Church and to establish the three Franciscan Orders, where poverty and humility is the norm; he did not concern himself with what others thought; rather, he, as St. Martin, sought to serve both God and man in quiet obedience.
If we were to adopt their (as that of many other saints, both past and present) example there would no doubt be great harmony in the Church and we would be that Light which Jesus commanded us to be!
Our humility could very well be the only method of procuring the Grace of the Gifts without experiencing the negative fallout that is created through excessive campaingning for them.
Maran atha!
Angel
*
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BigRedpg51
Guest
The reason why a person is given the gift of prayer tongues…is not so that they can understand what is being said. Can we understand the mind of God? (I think not)
It is a language that is far beyond our human speech. It is a language of the spirit of a person, and the Holy Spirit of God.
If I were to ask you…“Do you love God?” …and you were to answer me…“Yes, of course!” …I might next ask you…“How do you know? Prove it!”
You can’t simply write the word ‘love’ down on a piece of paper…and WAH-LAH!!! you instantly love someone. Your heart has to be open, and give of itself…and be willing to receive from another…in order to experience true ‘love’.
To simply say that you love someone…or to write it down…doesn’t mean anything – if you do not really mean it. To truly experience love, and be enriched by love, and help change another by love, you have to love. Your heart has to open, and you have to give and receive on a spiritual level…love.
It’s the same way with the gift of prayer tongues. If you were to write the literal translation of what is said in prayer tongues down on paper…or even translate it to English…it would not make much sense, or be very eloquent. However, when praying in the medium that is natural to the gift…the spiritual realm…it is sublimely beautiful, direct, and eloquent beyond human imagination! I know this because on at least 2 occasions someone with the gift of “Interpretation of Tongues” has told me what I was saying in my prayer tongue that evening.
To think that the only kind of prayer worth saying is one we can form with our lips in our own language, and understand clearly with our minds…is very narrow-minded indeed. God is so far beyond our human capabilities! And it is He, who – as St. Paul witnessed – gave us this insightful and powerful (and humble) means of prayer to use when talking to Him…the gift of prayer tongues.
Being human, and a bit proud, we tend to try and “put God in a box” that conforms to our own comprehension. We say, in our self-assertion, that God is who I imagine and understand Him to be. Rubbish!!! God’s beauty is so much more, that if we were ever to see Him as He truly is – with our human eyes…or hear Him as He truly sounds – with our human ears…we would die of sheer ecstasy!
So, in His infinite wisdom, He has given us ‘gifts’ whereby we can touch Him – and have Him touch us – in a special way. This way is far beyond our normal human ability…and it allows us to communicate with God in a much deeper way.
Some people in our world are so holy…so ‘in tune’ with God…that to use the gifts of the Holy Spirit would actually be unnecessary (and may even be a hindrance in some circumstances). But, for the rest of us…God provides the gifts as a means.
Thank you, most generous God !
C
Chris_Patterson
Guest
I have a couple of experiential responses to this good quesiton.
First, praying in tongues allows my spirit to pray in a manner unobstructed and unlimited by my mood or my less-than-holy state of mind. For instance, there are times when I have been too angry or too doubtful to pray well in English. However, by praying in tongues I was able to pray anyway, with the sense that my prayer was not limited by my stinkin thinkin.
Second, many times I have experienced a quickening - a sharpening - of my sensitivity to the Holy Spirit and His voice during the time I am praying in tongues, as well as immediately after. I believe this is what Saint Paul meant when he said in 1 Cor 14:4 “He who speaks in an tongue edifies himself,…” Often when I pray in tongues, that prayer gives was to really good English prayer. Sometimes I believe God shows me stuff to pray - even stuff that I wouldn’t have any earthly idea needed prayer. Some people call this prophetic prayer; others call it pray based upon a word of knowledge or word of wisdom; others simply call it private revelation. In any event, during times I am
trying to listen to God and trying to pray according to his direction; and
I am not seeming to hear well, then…
…I with pray in tongues, and often seem to be getting stuff from God. The accuracy of what seems to be revealed is confirmed by the persons over whom I pray.
I know that both of these examples are highly experiential an anecdotal, but I think the theology of the gift has been well discussed in this thread, so I’ll not go into that.
Anyway, those are a couple of ways tongues help me.
Thanks for listening.
In His love,
Chris
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guanophore
Guest
Yes, but why limit the spirit? Why not be open to both? As the scripture states " to each is given the manifestation for the common good". Only the Spirit knows what that might be, and it may change from time to time, or place to place, so I think we need to be open to all the gifts, all the time.
B
BigRedpg51
Guest
I just wanted to share a bit with you as to how and when I received the gift of tongues…and maybe it will help you to understand this gift in a different light.
I was about to attend my first “Life in the Spirit Seminar” (also known as “LSS”) when I was told about the Baptism in the Holy Spirit that was done at the 5th part. My spiritual guide, a woman with very many and powerful gifts, said that when she was led to her Baptism in the Holy Spirit – she didn’t ask for any gifts. She didn’t even want them, per se. She only asked God to fill her with Jesus! “If I have Jesus,” she thought, “I’ll have everything that goes along with Jesus. Jesus will be enough.”
So, I decided that that is what I would ask for in my Baptism in the Holy Spirit…I would just ask for Jesus to fill me with Himself…nothing more.
It was about 1 week later when I received my first gift…Word of Knowledge…and that was followed up in a few weeks with …Gift of Prophesy. Over the next several years at least two other gifts were manifested, as well. …but still no “Gift of Prayer Tongues”.
Then, one evening at a charismatic prayer meeting (about 4 years after my Baptism in the Holy Spirit) I was praising God with the others – but I was using English words, while they were praising Him in tongues…when, all of a sudden, my prayer changed to ‘tongues’. Later, I asked my spiritual guide if I had received the gift of tongues? …and she told me that 4 people had received gifts that night, and I was 1 of them.
The next day, on my 30 minute drive to work, I thought it would be nice to praise God in the car. So, I thought I would give this gift of tongues a try-out! I started praising God in tongues…and eventually, as the miles flew by, God changed my prayer tongues 9 times – 9 different languages (none of which I could understand)!
Well, by the time 20 minutes passed I was tired of ‘not understanding’ what I was saying, so I decided to try praising God in English. IT SOUNDED LIKE I WAS SPEAKING INTO A TIN CAN…weak and empty!
Enough of that! I went back to praising God in tongues for the last 5 minutes of the drive.
At the next prayer meeting I asked my spiritual guide about it…“Why did it sound so weak and tinny and empty when I switched over to English during my drive to work?” She asked me what I was praying in English. I told her…“I love You Lord!”…“I praise You Lord!”…“You are my Lord, my God, my All!”…“I praise and thank You Lord.”…stuff like that. Then, she explained to me that my English prayer was full of “I”…but in the gift of prayer tongues there is no “I”. That is why it is so pure…so much more filled with humility than prayer in my normal speaking language.
In English…“I praise You Lord!”…might be something like…“May You be praised forever!”…in the gift of tongues. The ego, the “I”, is completely out of it. There is only God.
So, I did not receive this gift because I asked for it - exactly. I only asked for Jesus to fill me with Himself. This gift of tongues did not come right away (as so many of the misguided “experts” tell you to ask for at your Baptism in the Holy Spirit")…but it came to me 4 years later…at a time pleasing to God.
In a few days I was being taught how to pray over a person (with others, of course – ALWAYS with others!) using the gift of tongues. God was starting to show me how powerful a gift this truly is…and, I’m ashamed to say, I was like a runaway horse with the things that He was showing me through the use of this gift…telling everybody EVERYTHING that I ‘saw’. I quickly learned “what to reveal”, and “what NOT to reveal” – and to ask His permission beforehand.
I hope that this is helpful to some of you…in you’re understanding this beautiful gift a little better.
God bless you all!
John
I was about to attend my first “Life in the Spirit Seminar” (also known as “LSS”) when I was told about the Baptism in the Holy Spirit that was done at the 5th part. My spiritual guide, a woman with very many and powerful gifts, said that when she was led to her Baptism in the Holy Spirit – she didn’t ask for any gifts. She didn’t even want them, per se. She only asked God to fill her with Jesus! “If I have Jesus,” she thought, “I’ll have everything that goes along with Jesus. Jesus will be enough.”
So, I decided that that is what I would ask for in my Baptism in the Holy Spirit…I would just ask for Jesus to fill me with Himself…nothing more.
It was about 1 week later when I received my first gift…Word of Knowledge…and that was followed up in a few weeks with …Gift of Prophesy. Over the next several years at least two other gifts were manifested, as well. …but still no “Gift of Prayer Tongues”.
Then, one evening at a charismatic prayer meeting (about 4 years after my Baptism in the Holy Spirit) I was praising God with the others – but I was using English words, while they were praising Him in tongues…when, all of a sudden, my prayer changed to ‘tongues’. Later, I asked my spiritual guide if I had received the gift of tongues? …and she told me that 4 people had received gifts that night, and I was 1 of them.
The next day, on my 30 minute drive to work, I thought it would be nice to praise God in the car. So, I thought I would give this gift of tongues a try-out! I started praising God in tongues…and eventually, as the miles flew by, God changed my prayer tongues 9 times – 9 different languages (none of which I could understand)!
Well, by the time 20 minutes passed I was tired of ‘not understanding’ what I was saying, so I decided to try praising God in English. IT SOUNDED LIKE I WAS SPEAKING INTO A TIN CAN…weak and empty!
Enough of that! I went back to praising God in tongues for the last 5 minutes of the drive.
At the next prayer meeting I asked my spiritual guide about it…“Why did it sound so weak and tinny and empty when I switched over to English during my drive to work?” She asked me what I was praying in English. I told her…“I love You Lord!”…“I praise You Lord!”…“You are my Lord, my God, my All!”…“I praise and thank You Lord.”…stuff like that. Then, she explained to me that my English prayer was full of “I”…but in the gift of prayer tongues there is no “I”. That is why it is so pure…so much more filled with humility than prayer in my normal speaking language.
In English…“I praise You Lord!”…might be something like…“May You be praised forever!”…in the gift of tongues. The ego, the “I”, is completely out of it. There is only God.
So, I did not receive this gift because I asked for it - exactly. I only asked for Jesus to fill me with Himself. This gift of tongues did not come right away (as so many of the misguided “experts” tell you to ask for at your Baptism in the Holy Spirit")…but it came to me 4 years later…at a time pleasing to God.
In a few days I was being taught how to pray over a person (with others, of course – ALWAYS with others!) using the gift of tongues. God was starting to show me how powerful a gift this truly is…and, I’m ashamed to say, I was like a runaway horse with the things that He was showing me through the use of this gift…telling everybody EVERYTHING that I ‘saw’. I quickly learned “what to reveal”, and “what NOT to reveal” – and to ask His permission beforehand.
I hope that this is helpful to some of you…in you’re understanding this beautiful gift a little better.
God bless you all!
John
J
jcrichton
Guest
*How am I limiting the Holy Spirit?
When we read the Holy Scriptures we can emphasize a particar portion of a verse (i.e.: “…the wage of sin is death…”) but we may be excluding a greater and more important message ("…but the Gift of God is eternal Life in Jesus…"). I have never stated that the Holy Spirit is not free to endow man with any of His Gifts; I have simply asserted that not all who claim to have the Gifts are genuine receptors of God’s Grace.
The problem with the Holy Scriptures is that many times man choses to place emphasis in a verse or portion of text that seems to support his preconception, as it seems to be the case with the particular portion of Scriptures which was quoted; I am not even suggesting that it was done with ill-intent… only that it misrepresets the message being given by St. Paul and that, left unchallenged, it would heavily weigh as having St. Paul’s full endorcement as his preferred Gift; only when the verse is read in its entirety could we fully see that St. Paul’s endorcement is of proclaiming the Gospel to all!
Maran atha!
Angel*
C
Chris_Patterson
Guest
Angel,
I don’t think you are limiting the Spirit. I think 1 Cor 14 is clear that gifts like prophecy that build up the Church are more valuable than gifts like tongues that mainly edify ourselves. And I think that is at least part of your point.
One thing I would caution us all on, is to be careful about making the statement I have seen frequently in this thread, that is, the statement: “I don’t believe everyone who says he speaks in tongues actually has the gift.”
I know we are supposed to test the spirits, so to speak. But what criteria do we use to determine who really has the gift, and who is fooling or being fooled?
- The fruit of love and devotion to Jesus are probably the best two criteria. Few of us know someone well enough to do a good job of evaluating that fruit. If we look at an individual and say, “That is not really the legitimate gift of tongues,” do we really know that person well enough to evaluate his fruit?
- Maturity? Gifting and maturity certainly are not synonymous. Maturity generally affects the proper use of a gift, as well as the fruit yielded from that use. (Just as a person’s maturity and dispostion towards Jesus affect how taking the Eucharist will produce fruit in that person’s life.)
Or, perhaps the particular person speaking in tongues is acting crazy, or undignified. Even using this criteria we run the risk of calling exuberance (perhaps immature exuberance) as ungodly, when in fact it is simply an immature use of the gift. And perhaps God wants a little exuberance! Remember Michal’s punishment when she despised David’s undignified dance before the Lord.
We can probably make an accurate statement that “not everyone who acts like they are praying in tongues are really praying in tongues.” But when we look at individual cases, we need to be really, really careful that we are not attributing a real manifestation of this gift of the Spirit to someone’s carnality or to the working of an unclean spirit.
My policy is to keep my mouth shut as to the validity, and let God do the sorting and correcting.
That’s not to say I wouldn’t call out someone on speaking in tongues inappropriately (regardless of the genuineness of the gift). That would bring up a whole new issue, but the bottom line is that I am more likely to challenge the appropriateness of a gift than the genuineness.
Does this make sense?
In His love,
Chris
T
thistle
Guest
I hadn’t realised this thread is still going on. As I said hundreds of posts ago anyone who claims they speak in tongues without being prepared to submit that claim to the Church is a FAKE.
Its not like a natural gift of being good at art or music. Tongues would be a supernatural gift and ONLY the Church can discern if someone has such a gift. Someone self proclaiming that they have the gift of tongues is arrogant and a fake.
Its not like a natural gift of being good at art or music. Tongues would be a supernatural gift and ONLY the Church can discern if someone has such a gift. Someone self proclaiming that they have the gift of tongues is arrogant and a fake.
C
clmowry
Guest
Well that’s a worse case I think.
The person in question might simply not be prudent enough to test the validity of their self perceived “gift of the spirit.”
Chuck
- Status