Speaking in tongues: genuine charism or silly gibberish?

[jcrichton]

Then I took it that when the Apostles where filled with the Holy Spirit, that they spoke with the power of the Holy Spirit and each understood in their own language. (in an instant)

My thoughts, exactly!

Don’t know if you’ve noticed, but some of the Rave music the young listen too today has a sort of hypnotic beat to it.

I believe that this is being emulated by too many in the Church… you can’t really tell when the experience is genuine or empathic or false…

No wonder Jesus Commanded us to pray!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[christisall]

From EWTN at ewtn.com/expert/answers/c…ic_renewal.htm

The Charismatic Renewal as a movement within the Catholic Church has been acknowledged by two Popes, Paul VI and John Paul II. Speaking to the International Conference on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal on May 19, 1975, Pope Paul VI encouraged the attendees in their renewal efforts and especially to remain anchored in the Church.

This authentic desire to situate yourselves in the Church is the authentic sign of the action of the Holy Spirit … How could this ‘spiritual renewal’ not be a chance for the Church and the world? And how, in this case could one not take all the means to ensure that it remains so…
Pope John Paul II, for his part, has been more explicit. Speaking to a group of international leaders of the Renewal on December 11, 1979, he said,

I am convinced that this movement is a very important component of the entire renewal of the Church.
Noting that since age 11 he had said a daily prayer to the Holy Spirit he added,

This was my own spiritual initiation, so I can understand all these charisms. They are all part of the richness of the Lord. I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action.
For his part, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has added his voice to the Pope’s in acknowledging the good occurring in the Charismatic Renewal and providing some cautions. In a forward to a book by Cardinal Suenens, at that time the Pope’s delegate to the Charismatic Renewal, the Prefect comments on the Post-Conciliar period stating,

At the heart of a world imbued with a rationalistic skepticism, a new experience of the Holy Spirit suddenly burst forth. And, since then, that experience has assumed a breadth of a worldwide Renewal movement. What the New Testament tells us about the charisms - which were seen as visible signs of the coming of the Spirit - is not just ancient history, over and done with, for it is once again becoming extremely topical.

Speaking of the book’s subject, renewal and the powers of darkness, he says,

What is the relation between personal experience and the common faith of the Church? Both factors are important: a dogmatic faith unsupported by personal experience remains empty; mere personal experience unrelated to the faith of the Church remains blind.

Finally, he urges those who read the book to pay special attention to the author’s double plea,

… to those responsible for the ecclesiastical ministry - from parish priests to bishops - not to let the Renewal pass them by but to welcome it fully; and on the other (hand) … to the members of the Renewal to cherish and maintain their link with the whole Church and with the charisms of their pastors. [Renewal and the Powers of Darkness, Leo Cardinal Suenens (Ann Arbor: Servant Books, 1983)]

I think people feel all sorts of things that they don’t understand.

These people believe that God (or other, lesser, positive spiritual beings) are causing them to speak in ways that are unintelligible to human ears. It sometimes is the result of religious conditioning. They see everyone else ‘speaking in tongues’ around them, they think there’s something to it, so they start imagining doing it themselves too.

They don’t understand that the gibberish they speak actually comes from inside their own mind.

 

[redrosetea]

I beleive the gifts of the Holy Spirit are real and seldom given…and certainly not experinced by masses of people

I think this has become a religious fad and people seem to need to have some sort of supernatural experience instead of just being still and know that I am God ,sort of religion

I just done see the purpose of thisnow, as there was in the days of the apostles…Its sort of like people need magic instead of faith to function

I might be wrong but I have never heard of Billy Graham speaking in tongues either

 

[christisall]

Maybe these words from these two Holy Father’s (and one soon to be) addresses among other things your comment on it being a religious fad. I’ve added the bold to then- Cardinal Ratzinger’s comments.

From EWTN at ewtn.com/expert/answers/c…ic_renewal.htm

The Charismatic Renewal as a movement within the Catholic Church has been acknowledged by two Popes, Paul VI and John Paul II. Speaking to the International Conference on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal on May 19, 1975, Pope Paul VI encouraged the attendees in their renewal efforts and especially to remain anchored in the Church.

This authentic desire to situate yourselves in the Church is the authentic sign of the action of the Holy Spirit … How could this ‘spiritual renewal’ not be a chance for the Church and the world? And how, in this case could one not take all the means to ensure that it remains so…
Pope John Paul II, for his part, has been more explicit. Speaking to a group of international leaders of the Renewal on December 11, 1979, he said,

I am convinced that this movement is a very important component of the entire renewal of the Church.
Noting that since age 11 he had said a daily prayer to the Holy Spirit he added,

This was my own spiritual initiation, so I can understand all these charisms. They are all part of the richness of the Lord. I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action.
For his part, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has added his voice to the Pope’s in acknowledging the good occurring in the Charismatic Renewal and providing some cautions. In a forward to a book by Cardinal Suenens, at that time the Pope’s delegate to the Charismatic Renewal, the Prefect comments on the Post-Conciliar period stating,

At the heart of a world imbued with a rationalistic skepticism, a new experience of the Holy Spirit suddenly burst forth. And, since then, that experience has assumed a breadth of a worldwide Renewal movement. What the New Testament tells us about the charisms - which were seen as visible signs of the coming of the Spirit - is not just ancient history, over and done with, for it is once again becoming extremely topical.

Speaking of the book’s subject, renewal and the powers of darkness, he says,

What is the relation between personal experience and the common faith of the Church? Both factors are important: a dogmatic faith unsupported by personal experience remains empty; mere personal experience unrelated to the faith of the Church remains blind.

Finally, he urges those who read the book to pay special attention to the author’s double plea,

… to those responsible for the ecclesiastical ministry - from parish priests to bishops - not to let the Renewal pass them by but to welcome it fully; and on the other (hand) … to the members of the Renewal to cherish and maintain their link with the whole Church and with the charisms of their pastors. [Renewal and the Powers of Darkness, Leo Cardinal Suenens (Ann Arbor: Servant Books, 1983)]

I beleive the gifts of the Holy Spirit are real and seldom given…and certainly not experinced by masses of people

I think this has become a religious fad and people seem to need to have some sort of supernatural experience instead of just being still and know that I am God ,sort of religion

I just done see the purpose of thisnow, as there was in the days of the apostles…Its sort of like people need magic instead of faith to function

I might be wrong but I have never heard of Billy Graham speaking in tongues either

 

[redrosetea]

It really doesn’t change my mind a lot to read that, but one thing I will say in your credit

You can let others have their opinions without getting angry and attacking them

The people I find the least credible are the ones that get ticked off when you don’t believe them

I just don’t find this at all appealing and perhaps it is why I look at is so sceptically…

The things I have seen on TvVwith people falling down and babbling leave me cold. I wouldn’t want to attend a church like that

I would leave

I prefer dignified forms of worship…I will take a Latin mass over this stuff any day

Good luck to those that find it appealing, I find it really theatrical

 

[christisall]

Jesus said in My father’s house are many mansions, and I believe that is here and in the hereafter. All of these are places he gives for His children. as Joh Paul II said in this article, " This was my own spiritual initiation, so I can understand all these charisms. They are all part of the richness of the Lord. They are all part of the richness of the Lord."

Peace

It really doesn’t change my mind a lot to read that, but one thing I will say in your credit

You can let others have their opinions without getting angry and attacking them

The people I find the least credible are the ones that get ticked off when you don’t believe them

I just don’t find this at all appealing and perhaps it is why I look at is so sceptically…

The things I have seen on TvVwith people falling down and babbling leave me cold. I wouldn’t want to attend a church like that

I would leave

I prefer dignified forms of worship…I will take a Latin mass over this stuff any day

Good luck to those that find it appealing, I find it really theatrical

 

[Sabda]

From EWTN at ewtn.com/expert/answers/charismatic_renewal.htm

Thanks for posting this. I didn’t realize until I was half-way down that I have already read this article. It’s been awhile though. It did help to confirm that my thinking on the movement is on track. It also appears to have answered my question which was:

If it’s extraordinary than doesn’t that make it a supernatural gift? After all aren’t miracles supernatural gifts?

The article says:

All such authentic charisms, therefore, are at the service of the Body of Christ, the Church (1 Cor 12, 14). **As gifts of the Holy Spirit, they are supernatural graces beyond the power of human striving and human nature **(e.g. miracle working), though some may build upon the natural talents of the recipient (e.g. teaching).

So extraordinary does mean that it is supernatural. At least that’s the understanding I’m getting out of those words.

 

[christisall]

Also at the end of this article, the author states, regarding the Church’s oversight of the Charsimatic Renewal:

“Practically speaking, therefore, the many instances of extraordinary charisms within the Charismatic Renewal will never come under the official scrutiny of the Church. Priests and Catholic laity associated with the Renewal will most likely have to discern each instance themselves, according to the theological criteria of Catholic theology and prudence. It is easier to dismiss a phenomenon as NOT from God than it is to determine its other possible sources (human or divine spirit). A basic question prayerfully asked must be “is this particular event a credible example of the action of the Spirit of God - a Spirit incapable of any lie or sin and which can only lead people (even non-Catholics) to a deeper Catholic faith and unity?” This should do much to protect us from the roaring lion (1 Peter 5:8), even if it cannot produce the judgement that something is certainly from God - a fact which only the Holy See can ultimately state.”

Thanks for posting this. I didn’t realize until I was half-way down that I have already read this article. It’s been awhile though. It did help to confirm that my thinking on the movement is on track. It also appears to have answered my question which was:

The article says:

So extraordinary does mean that it is supernatural. At least that’s the understanding I’m getting out of those words.

 

[Sabda]

In regard to the above article it has had something interesting to say in regard to being in the presence of angels and Satan’s abilities.

St. Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologiae [ST II-II q172 a2] tells us that unless a charism requires the exercise of divine power the Holy Spirit accomplishes it through the mediation of the holy angels. When they are within the power of the angelic nature, they are also capable of demonic imitation. It is difficult to explain the “charismatic power of speech” of a Hitler, for instance, on purely natural grounds. It is for these reasons that most spiritual writers, especially the mystical doctor St. John of the Cross, warn us not to seek such extraordinary phenomenon. As noted earlier, Vatican II made this warning part of its teaching on the charismatic gifts.

That to me clearly shows that we need to practice caution on this and need to discern. The article does state that discernment is needed.

Thus the Church on the one hand recognizes that the Holy Spirit moves where He will, and so she does not want to oppose His working, and on the other, that the Church must discern the authenticity of each charism, lest it be a deception of the evil one. For this reason to say that the Charismatic Renewal is approved by the Church is not a blanket approval of every alleged charismatic gift or every charismatic group or individual within the Church. The discernment of the Holy Spirit’s action is an ongoing necessity within the Church and within the Charismatic Renewal.

Christisall you have already posted the other paragraph that I was going to list.

 

[jcrichton]

I ask those of you who do not believe that tongues is authentic: Do you think the other charismatic gifts are fake, too? Interpretation (of tongues), discernment, prophesy, healing, faith, etc…all fake?

I think that you should be asking:

• What purpose does it serve to have hundreds or thousands speaking in tongues, prophesying, healing… when the Church continues to lose grounds, when Priests and Bishops continue to act in an anti-Christ manner, when the laity choses and picks which Doctrine to half-follow, when devote Catholics are in their golden years, when non-Catholic Christians continue to divide in search for the “genuine” Biblical path to Christ, when Christ’s very specific “Love one another…” and “be one…” are ignored or restructured to mean anything but Christ’s Love and Unity in One God, One Baptism, One Spirit, One Faith, One Gospel, One Church?
• Remember how Jesus warned the disciples not to be as the Pharisees and Sadducees nor like the hypocrites which would multiply their words so that men could praise them for their “prayers?”
• Is Yahweh God deaf?
• Is Yahweh a God of chaos?
• Can we bring order back to the act of Worship?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[thistle]

How long have you been around spiritually speaking, and what is your formation? ** Are you a Christian or a Catholic?** To say those of us who have been around the spiritual block are tricked is really funny. Ha Ha. What’s this “the God is talking to them” thing and Karma? Do you believe in Jesus as King of all Kings and Master of all?

Where have you been? Catholics ARE Christians!!

By the way whether there is a short cut procedure in this case you are missing the point. An individual person cannot claim they definitely can speak in tongues. That is pride. They might think they do but they do not know. ONLY the Church can discern. If the Bishop has to approve a million individually then so be it. How could a group en masse be approved as genuine. That’s nonsense. There is a big difference between approval for a charismatic group to have meetings etc and assuming that means every individual at such meetings have been given approval for the gift of speaking in tongues! Give us a break!

 

[Joysong]

Sabda:

This paragraph appears to put the gift of tongues on par with miracles as something not ordinary. If it’s extraordinary than doesn’t that make it a supernatural gift? After all aren’t miracles supernatural gifts?

I just checked out what the dictionary has to say.
1 a: going beyond what is usual, regular, or customary

Because we were not the authors of the CCC, we are unable to know with certainty what the paragraph was intended to convey. Does it refer to the miracle of tongues as at Pentecost? Does it refer to the initial outpouring that causes the person to recognize God’s bestowal of the gift upon him? This paragraph you cite does not take into account that there are other prayer tongues (see scripture below) that are not extraordinary in the sense of being done supernaturally and out of one’s ordinary control.

1 Cor. 12:28:
Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.

Let’s look at the next paragraphs after the one you quoted.

2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:

Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith.

I could easily pull my dictionary definition for “special” and find that it, too, can take on the same meaning as your definition for extraordinary.

spe·cial Audio Help /ˈspɛʃəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[spesh-uhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. of a distinct or particular kind or character: a special kind of key.
5. distinguished or different from what is ordinary or usual: a special occasion; to fix something special.
6. extraordinary; exceptional, as in amount or degree; especial: special importance.

Where does that leave us in our understanding? When one ministers with the gift of prophecy, teaching, exhorting, etc., CCC-2004 teaches that they are acting under the supernatural gift of grace which we are instructed in CCC-2005 “escapes our experience and cannot be known.” When you do an act of mercy, do you know that it is being performed under a supernatural impulse of grace? I think not.

It is no different from the use of prayer tongues. However, if the person is speaking in assembly for the good of the group under a special anointing of the Holy Spirit as His messenger, I believe they do understand the difference, and in that extraordinary, but rare circumstance, we know St. Paul tells us that it must be judged by the others in the group and interpreted. This is not what I think the thread is about, though.

 

[Joysong]

Someone mentioned that Popes Paul VI and John Paul II approved the charismatic renewal, but I did not see a mention that Pope Benedict has also given, not only his approval, but encouragement and praise. Coming from this conservative Pope, that is a very powerful statement!

zenit.org/article-22492?l=english

VATICAN CITY, MAY 4, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI is encouraging and praising the work of the Charismatic Renewal in its commitment to promote communion.

zenit.org/article-22621?l=english

VATICAN CITY, MAY 18, 2008 (Zenit.org).- The charisms of movements and new ecclesial communities must be welcomed by the Church “with much love” and without “superficial and reductive judgments,” says Benedict XVI.

“Those who are called to the service of discernment and leadership,” the Pope said, “should not lord it over the charisms, but should rather beware of the danger of suffocating them, resisting the temptation to make uniform that which the Spirit willed to be multiform to concur in the building up and the enlargement of the one Body of Christ, that the same Spirit makes firm in unity.”

 

[christisall]

Yes, but a lot of people seem to think they are above the Popes, it seems to me in this matter- they beieve what suits them, but ignore these things. Just because they don’t do it or understand it, they try and explain it away.

Someone mentioned that Popes Paul VI and John Paul II approved the charismatic renewal, but I did not see a mention that Pope Benedict has also given, not only his approval, but encouragement and praise. Coming from this conservative Pope, that is a very powerful statement!

 

[Sabda]

Joysong,

The CCC does not separate tongues into ordinary and extraordinary. It clearly states that “like miracles” the gift of tongues is extraordinary.

My question was does extraordinary mean supernatural? It’s really a very simple little question. Your the one who is saying no, not all tongues are supernatural. The CCC does not make the distinction between different sets of tongues. All tongues are grouped together as extraordinary. If extraordinary does not mean supernatural that what does it mean?

 

[Joysong]

I agree that they did not expand the concept in accord with the scriptures, which do say that there are a variety of tongues. My personal understanding is that they were speaking of the extraordinary gift such as given at Pentecost, or that is given to a person in the inital outpouring of the Spirit in the concept we call “the baptism of the Holy Spirit.”

But for everyday usage as a personal prayer tongue (one of the “varieties”), I believe it is not extraordinary, even though it is done under grace, which is supernatural, and unable to be consciously known, as the CCC-2005 taught.

I don’t think we should fault the CCC for not taking into account all the many variables. You will note that they did not expand on the gift of prophecy either, which has many aspects to the gift. Some prophecy is highly extraordinary as when the famine was prophesied in the book of Acts. The apostles had to discern immediately the authenticity of the word delivered to them so they could send aid. But there are other uses of prophecy that are rather ordinary in comparison. St. Paul urges us to strive to prophesy, so we see that it is not supernaturally beyond our means:

1 Pursue love, but strive eagerly for the spiritual gifts, above all that you may prophesy.
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit.
3 On the other hand, one who prophesies does speak to human beings, for their building up, encouragement, and solace.
1 Cor. 14

All in all, every gift exercised with the help of supernatural grace could called extraordinary, since grace is itself God’s gift.

We may be splitting hairs in trying to understand what is foreign to one’s ability to reason about this gift and figure it out without any experience of it. I suggest it is one of those godly MYOB instances that our pride needs to let go of, and let God do His own work in us without examining what He is doing in others.

 

[Athanasiy]

In modern Charismatism there are the tendencies to reveal spirituality which is in big measure based on feelings and emotions.
Also , healthy –wealthy theology , representation of Christianity as success and successfulness in life , anti-child mentality in the family life , also some times if the Pastors are divorced and remarry again which unfortunately happens than it gives the negative examples and man-centered moods for the community. All these appearances – impoverish and not enrich the Christian spirituality.
I do not believe in healthy spirituality of the Charismatism.
But if we have such a phenomenon as Catholic Charismatism.
Then , I think - Charismatic Catholicism sounds better than Catholic Charismatism.
Very often ( at least how it is in Ukraine ) the Charismatic Pastors reveal themselves in young age.
22-23 years old.
And very important , what do they read and what they teach their community.
To read the Catholic Catechism , to read the examined and tested by time the classic Catholic theologist’s books is much more important than to read some new books based on subjective experience of some preachers.
So , I think if we have such phenomenon as Catholic Charismatism than , the Catholic understanding of renouncing ourselves in struggle with sin , must be taken to the attention in the walking by the Spirit , not just home-feelings of the subjective experience in the Spirit.

But the matter is that Charismatic theology , in great measure is the new understanding of some theological conceptions and comprehensions which were unheard till now.
For example the thoughts of Jerome and Augustine , about the suffering are considered as old and expired ones.
And there is a new interpretation of the human suffering , and the problem of suffering in the life of the Christian , which totally different from …let’s say how C.S.Lewis was understanding it.
And there are many other theological questions , beside the speaking in tongues , which proves Charismatism as a new type of Christian understanding.
Therefore in my opinion its important difference .
Catholic Charismatism and Charismatic Catholicism.
I personally believe that its extremely important for the people who speak with tongues , for the Pastors of Pentecostal and Charismatic communities to try to equal the best with the Catholic understanding of morality and ethics , and much from the millennial Church experience in the matters of moral virtues and walking by the Spirit.

 

[graceandglory]

Please carefully re-read the title of this thread:
“Speaking in tongues: genuine charism or silly gibberish??”

If it is not gibberish, then it is a genuine charism. But if it is not a genuine charism then it is indeed gibberish and we should call it for what it is.

Why would you take offense at stating this self-evident dichotomy?

Why can’t it be both?
I believe that God can do whatever He wants to with a person. If He wants someone to speak in tongues, so be it. I also believe that people have free will and can do whatever they want in relation to God. I believe that “speaking in tongues” or glossolalia can have three sources: God, self, and Satan.

See definition of glossolalia in the Catholic Encyclopedia before making any judgments.

newadvent.org/cathen/14776c.htm

Faithful adherence to the text of Sacred Scripture makes it obligatory to reject those opinions which turn the charism of tongues into little more than infantile babbling

 

[jcrichton]

In modern Charismatism there are the tendencies to reveal spirituality which is in big measure based on feelings and emotions.
Also , healthy –wealthy theology , representation of Christianity as success and successfulness in life , anti-child mentality in the family life , also some times if the Pastors are divorced and remarry again which unfortunately happens than it gives the negative examples and man-centered moods for the community. All these appearances – impoverish and not enrich the Christian spirituality.
I do not believe in healthy spirituality of the Charismatism.
But if we have such a phenomenon as Catholic Charismatism.
Then , I think - Charismatic Catholicism sounds better than Catholic Charismatism.
Very often ( at least how it is in Ukraine ) the Charismatic Pastors reveal themselves in young age.
22-23 years old.
And very important , what do they read and what they teach their community.
To read the Catholic Catechism , to read the examined and tested by time the classic Catholic theologist’s books is much more important than to read some new books based on subjective experience of some preachers.
So , I think if we have such phenomenon as Catholic Charismatism than , the Catholic understanding of renouncing ourselves in struggle with sin , must be taken to the attention in the walking by the Spirit , not just home-feelings of the subjective experience in the Spirit.

But the matter is that Charismatic theology , in great measure is the new understanding of some theological conceptions and comprehensions which were unheard till now.
For example the thoughts of Jerome and Augustine , about the suffering are considered as old and expired ones.
And there is a new interpretation of the human suffering , and the problem of suffering in the life of the Christian , which totally different from …let’s say how C.S.Lewis was understanding it.
And there are many other theological questions , beside the speaking in tongues , which proves Charismatism as a new type of Christian understanding.
Therefore in my opinion its important difference .
Catholic Charismatism and Charismatic Catholicism.
I personally believe that its extremely important for the people who speak with tongues , for the Pastors of Pentecostal and Charismatic communities to try to equal the best with the Catholic understanding of morality and ethics , and much from the millennial Church experience in the matters of moral virtues and walking by the Spirit.

I agree with you in many of your points… we are becoming a church of the world as both clergy and laity desire entertainment rather than substance–as though Christ needs to be updated into a modern Christ in order to Save the world… they ignore Scriptures that warns them that to be a friend to the world is to be an enemy to God… by seeking “flash” and “popularity” at the expense of proven theological doctrines, they are doing just that!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[stevendusa]

I would say the speaking of tongues was primaryly to get the basic gospel to simple people just becoming christians.
The problem comes up alot that when have these people recieving messages from God it might as a means of private interperation.
There leaving the church out in the cold sometimes. I think personally it for infants.