Speaking in tongues: genuine charism or silly gibberish?

[anthony022071]

Some interesting food for thought. But the essay sidesteps some of Paul’s rules for engagement. Specifically, women keeping silent, no more than two or three people speaking in tongues during one service, and the keeping silent if there is no interpreter (he addresses this last point, but only to back up the fact that “tongues” can be non-human languages, and using this verse as “proof” that it can be is faulty.)

 

[jcrichton]

The Holy Spirit is a spirit of peace and harmony not a spirit of chaos and discord.

Hi, Primrose!

I concur!

I think that this is one of the reason why many Catholics reject the “chrismatic movement.” I personally experienced a group who displayed a sense of superiority… they created what I considered that parish’s “twilight zone” where only the group’s members were “allowed” (this in the parish while the Mass was being celebrated); they would get there late and leave early… some would only drop in to receive the Holy Communion (you see… they were too busy organizing the group’s meetings and activities…); it was also very notable how they would exclude themselves from all of that parish’s activities–except from their own engagements; they even had a little “pulpit power drive” where a member (usually the same lady) would read and interprete the Holy Scriptures…

I do not know what became of it; but, I saw it a splinter group which had no place to go… yet…

Any and all charism should be demonstrated by humble unity to the Body of Christ not through schism from the Church or estrangement from her non-charismatic members…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[anthony022071]

Cari:

Yet this is stretching it, IMO. If someone were to start spontaneously speaking in Albanian, Farsi, or Urdu in my parish, someone would need the gift of interpretation. I don’t understand how people (and Dave Armstrong makes this same faulty reasoning in the above mentioned article) assume that because an interpreter is needed, the language must be of other-wordly origin.

Dave Armstrong didn’t say that.

Yet every single case of speaking in tongues I’ve ever witnessed either in person or on film takes place in a very public worship service. This is not to say that people DON’T speak in tongues in private, but it is to say that what is seen in public services fails miserably to follow St. Paul’s guidelines. That, I think, is the root of many people’s distrust of the phenomenon. It so clearly flies in the face of St. Paul’s teachings, while claiming St. Paul as proof of the Biblical nature of it.

That people don’t follow Paul’s guidelines is no reason to distrust the phenomenon. The Spirit blows where it will,as Jesus said. The Spirit does not guarantee that the person who receives it will behave like an orderly and reasonable person. If a weak-minded or unstable or schismatic person speaks under the influence of the Spirit,the result may well be gibberish. The Spirit itself is a Spirit of truth and unity,but weak-minded or unstable or schismatic persons may be rendered like madmen by it.

 

[jcrichton]

In my opinion, none of you are qualified to speak authoritatively on this issue unless you have been directly involved, and in any case, as we repeat here again and again, you are placing yourself over the Church, the Church has approved the Charismatic Renewal, the last two Holy Fathers, sucessors of Peter (remember him) have spoken of it as a necessary part in the renewal of the Church, as has Pope Benedict while Cardinal Ratzinger. They know these gifts are part of the renewal, and do not and would not require submission to the Church to discern tongues in every prayer meeting in the world. Preposterous!!

Hi, Christiall!

…so should it follow that none should speak on the Holy Scriptures unless they are theologians or some other type of “scholar?”

…you are confusing personal opinion and belief with Church Doctrine. As a Catholic I can express my opinion on anything that relates to the Church–my opinion, of course, would not necessarily be representative of Church Doctrine.

On this thread we are discussing the authenticity of “speaking in tongues.” So far I have not read a single post that claims that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit do not exist. The argument put forth suggests that not all are “speaking in tongues.” The Scriptural references (which includes my own) make the point that “charismatic movements” deviate from Scriptures as they profess that most, if not all, of their members are “speaking in tongues” when they exert any and all sound–which usually occurs in mass numbers…

Since the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to the Church to build up the Church and since the only recorded instructions on speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:26-33a) limit the number of speakers to but a few, those of us (non-charismatic) who witness what seems to be “chaos eruptus” can only think that there’s a llot of hoopla going on…

Perhaps more charismatics should learn to listen rather than speak and a sense of order would take over the movement bringing forth support and acceptance amongst all–while still achieving the goal of sharing the Gifts of the Holy Spirit with the world.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Alverno]

And now my two or three cents worth.
About ten years ago a friend of mine, a very devout Catholic who considered herself Charismatic, and who also was a Secular Franciscan, spoke in tongues while I was present. She did not do this for anyone else either before this occasion nor after. Prior to this I had been singing the Psalms, something this woman claimed to be somewhat like speaking in tongues. I also have the gift of Discernment of Spirit. While she was speaking in tongues I “saw” a spritual entity completely in “awe” of what was being said, especially the word for “God”. This spiritual entity disappeared when the tongues stopped. After visiting this holy lady I returned home 2-3 hours later. The translation of the tongues message came to me one phrase at a time. I wrote everything down as it came. It turned out to be a prophesy for this woman. The next time I saw her I gave her my notes of the interpretation. I put them into the pages of a book. She claimed that she never found the note. It has been a couple of years since she passed away. I believe she is an angel now. She interceded a couple of times in my life since her death. My point is this. Everything in that prophesy came true. There were several references to the praising of God. I have not since had an experience like this nor do I claim I have the gift of interpretation. Yet it was a deeply spiritual experience.

 

[jcrichton]

Thanks, Angel. This bears further study. Would you happen to know good Catechism passages?

Hi, Apologist!

…since there are many parts to this issue I’ve have opted to offer you the USB’s website:

usccb.org:8765/query.html?col=catechis&qt=speaking+in+tongues&charset=iso-8859-1

…if there’s something in particular that you would like to address, let me know.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

To say that speaking in tongues is gibberish is to risk grieving the Holy Spirit. It would make a mockery of the many descriptions of the phenomenon,starting with Pentecost day and, indeed, the words of Jesus Himself. Sheesh! Must I do all the work? I would have thought that any Bible reading Catholic would be f**amiliar **with these great events. However, try these as a starting point: In the New Testament there are 24 direct references to tongues inter alia:

“And these signs shall follow them that believe; in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; “(Mark 16: 17;18)

“they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4)
“For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God”(1 Corinthians: 14;2)

**Acts **10:4: 46 “ They heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God”

And when Paul had laid *his *hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues, and prophesied.” Acts 19:6

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; ‘°To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another *divers *kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues (1 Corinthians ;12)

“Charity never fails: but whether *there be *prophecies, they shall fail; whether *there be *tongues, they shall cease; whether *there be *knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. ‘°But when
that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” ( 1 Corinthians 13;8-11)

**1 Corinthians 14:2 **-5 “2For he that speaks in an *unknown *tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands *him; *howbeit in the edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4He that speaks in an *unknown *tongue edifies himself; but he that prophesies edifies the church. I would that you all spoke with tongues”

**
”In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what
we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself prays for us with groans that
words cannot express.” (Romans 8:26**)
There is no word in the Bible about tongues ceasing, until all is made perfect i.e. at the Second Coming.

D

I think that you’ve missed the point… Catholics have no problem with the Sacred Scriptures… what some of us are saying is that not all that glitters is gold… to simply state that “speaking in tongues” is Scriptural, hence all that claim that they are “speaking in tongues” are being moved and used by the Holy Spirit is tantamount to saying that all who claim to have Christ as their Lord and Savior are abiding in Chirst and are automatically “saved.”

The question is not, “Is there Scriptural text that speak on strange tongues?” The question is, “Are all claims on “speaking in tongues” authentic?”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Lepanto]

To be fair to the OP, I do not think he is trying to say that speaking in tongues as a genuine gift of the Holy Spirit is “gibberish”. He seems to merely be questioning whether many of those involved in the Charismatic movement that pray in unfamiliar words genuinely have this gift when their words are not from a recognizeable foreign language. It’s not a question of whether or not the gift exists, or whether or not the gift is “gibberish”, but of whether or not everyone who claims to have the gift really does.

Correct!

Thank you for being fair to me (the OP).

 

[christisall]

You missed my term speak “authoritatively” which many of you are doing. I quoted specifically for example : “Its very simple. Those who claim to speak “gibberish” tongues should submit to the Church for discernment. If they won’t do that then its obviously a fake and pride on the part of the claimant.”

This is not required by the Catholic Church, to submit for review all incidents of tongues, see my comments again. How can you have the authority to require this when the Church approves the Charismatic Renewal, and knows that these gifts are exercised. If something questionable arises that needs to be reviewed, like any other group,prayer meeting, etc. that may be contarary to the faith, it should and can be done.

From what I’ve read, and having spoken in tongues on many occasions, and most importantly experienced the Holy Spirit in powerful ways, many people really don’t know what they are talking about. I have never seen Catholic Charsimatic prayer groups barking, howling, rolling on the floor or any of the other trems that are being thrown around in an effort to discredit this form of prayer. I am Catholic first, pray the rosary and all forms of Catholic prayer, and have prayed in tongues as well. Having many years of spiritual formation, having someone doubt, question, and basically mock my and others experiencing of the Holy Spirit in this way is really kind of hard to believe really. Quite laughable.

You are speaking of this as if it’s some goofy offshoot, but it’s a form of prayer, very powerful in intercession, and if you don’t understand it (and you won’t simply by intellectual introspection), then how can you really catgeorize it and judge it? You’re obviously assuming the Holy Spirit isn’t there, or you don’t have holy fear for criticizing the Holy Spirit. I ahve seen a number of statements along the lines it’s all just people into themselves, etc. Though that may be the case if abused, my esperince has been the opposite, people praying in this way are very intercessory for OTHERS.

This link from Ralph Martin is good, both in terms of the dangers of improper function and use of the gifts, but also the (name removed by moderator)ortant comments by JPII addressing the gathering of many gathered Penetcost 1998 on the Holy Spirit, Vatican II, etc.

renewalministries.net/pdfs/Char_Cont…pdf

Hi, Christiall!

…so should it follow that none should speak on the Holy Scriptures unless they are theologians or some other type of “scholar?”

…you are confusing personal opinion and belief with Church Doctrine. As a Catholic I can express my opinion on anything that relates to the Church–my opinion, of course, would not necessarily be representative of Church Doctrine.

On this thread we are discussing the authenticity of “speaking in tongues.” So far I have not read a single post that claims that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit do not exist. The argument put forth suggests that not all are “speaking in tongues.” The Scriptural references (which includes my own) make the point that “charismatic movements” deviate from Scriptures as they profess that most, if not all, of their members are “speaking in tongues” when they exert any and all sound–which usually occurs in mass numbers…

Since the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to the Church to build up the Church and since the only recorded instructions on speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:26-33a) limit the number of speakers to but a few, those of us (non-charismatic) who witness what seems to be “chaos eruptus” can only think that there’s a llot of hoopla going on…

Perhaps more charismatics should learn to listen rather than speak and a sense of order would take over the movement bringing forth support and acceptance amongst all–while still achieving the goal of sharing the Gifts of the Holy Spirit with the world.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Lepanto]

You missed my term speak “authoritatively” which many of you are doing. I quoted specifically for example : “Its very simple. Those who claim to speak “gibberish” tongues should submit to the Church for discernment. If they won’t do that then its obviously a fake and pride on the part of the claimant.”

This is not required by the Catholic Church, to submit for review all incidents of tongues, see my comments again. How can you have the authority to require this when the Church approves the Charismatic Renewal, and knows that these gifts are exercised. If something questionable arises that needs to be reviewed, like any other group,prayer meeting, etc. that may be contarary to the faith, it should and can be done.

From what I’ve read, and having spoken in tongues on many occasions, and most importantly experienced the Holy Spirit in powerful ways, many people really don’t know what they are talking about. I have never seen Catholic Charsimatic prayer groups barking, howling, rolling on the floor or any of the other trems that are being thrown around in an effort to discredit this form of prayer. I am Catholic first, pray the rosary and all forms of Catholic prayer, and have prayed in tongues as well. Having many years of spiritual formation, having someone doubt, question, and basically mock my and others experiencing of the Holy Spirit in this way is really kind of hard to believe really. Quite laughable.

You are speaking of this as if it’s some goofy offshoot, but it’s a form of prayer, very powerful in intercession, and if you don’t understand it (and you won’t simply by intellectual introspection), then how can you really catgeorize it and judge it? You’re obviously assuming the Holy Spirit isn’t there, or you don’t have holy fear for criticizing the Holy Spirit. I ahve seen a number of statements along the lines it’s all just people into themselves, etc. Though that may be the case if abused, my esperince has been the opposite, people praying in this way are very intercessory for OTHERS.

This link from Ralph Martin is good, both in terms of the dangers of improper function and use of the gifts, but also the (name removed by moderator)ortant comments by JPII addressing the gathering of many gathered Penetcost 1998 on the Holy Spirit, Vatican II, etc.

renewalministries.net/pdfs/Char_Cont…pdf

Can you name even one canonized saint who spoke in tongues?

 

[jcrichton]

You missed my term speak “authoritatively” which many of you are doing. I quoted specifically for example : “Its very simple. Those who claim to speak “gibberish” tongues should submit to the Church for discernment. If they won’t do that then its obviously a fake and pride on the part of the claimant.”

Hi, Christisall!

…by definition an opinion has no authority… at most, it could be a suggestion… what you’ve quoted is one poster’s opinion which is not necessarily a Church’s mandate as the Church always works from humility and freedom of expression (the Holy Spirit’s not man’s).

This is not required by the Catholic Church, to submit for review all incidents of tongues, see my comments again. How can you have the authority to require this when the Church approves the Charismatic Renewal, and knows that these gifts are exercised. If something questionable arises that needs to be reviewed, like any other group,prayer meeting, etc. that may be contarary to the faith, it should and can be done.

Again, I submit to you (though I did not make such claim) that the poster is stating an opinion; I concur with you that the Church approves of the Charismatic Renewal. But I know that the Vatican does not know of every single incident that occurs within every parish in the world–history attests to this as when errors have arisen the Church has been slow in passing Judgment as she allows the issue to surface under the scrutiny of time and close observation–always allowing the parties involved to present (or retract, if the case merits it) their position.

From what I’ve read, and having spoken in tongues on many occasions, and most importantly experienced the Holy Spirit in powerful ways, many people really don’t know what they are talking about. I have never seen Catholic Charsimatic prayer groups barking, howling, rolling on the floor or any of the other trems that are being thrown around in an effort to discredit this form of prayer. I am Catholic first, pray the rosary and all forms of Catholic prayer, and have prayed in tongues as well. Having many years of spiritual formation, having someone doubt, question, and basically mock my and others experiencing of the Holy Spirit in this way is really kind of hard to believe really. Quite laughable.

Your spirituality and your experience may very well be genuine; I do not think anyone is claiming otherwise; their opinions, as mine, is based on the personal experiences with the various charismatic movements. Though I’ve never spoken in tongues, I have nothing against Catholics experiencing such Gift. My concern, as that of others, is that some, if not many, might well be caught up in the “emotion” of being spiritual as many promote speaking in tongue as a sign of spiritual growth; further, witnessing a whole flock of worshipers making exagerated sounds and gestures does not elicit confidence in the average laity.

My own personal problem with speaking in tongue is the seeming ability that some have to order the Holy Spirit about as they not only claim to be able to speak in tongue at will but also promote their ability as something they can pass on to others (train/instruct), again releaving the Holy Spirit from any Authority to determine who gets the Gift.

This is not necessarily reflective of all who “speak in tongues,” it is just my experience with several Catholic and non-Catholic groups.

You are speaking of this as if it’s some goofy offshoot, but it’s a form of prayer, very powerful in intercession, and if you don’t understand it (and you won’t simply by intellectual introspection), then how can you really catgeorize it and judge it? You’re obviously assuming the Holy Spirit isn’t there, or you don’t have holy fear for criticizing the Holy Spirit. I ahve seen a number of statements along the lines it’s all just people into themselves, etc. Though that may be the case if abused, my esperince has been the opposite, people praying in this way are very intercessory for OTHERS.

I do not think that anyone doubts that the Holy Spirit is the Giver of Life and the Giver of Gifts… nor that He can choose to reveal Himself through the Gift of “strange tongues.” What is in doubt is the quantity people and their seeming ability to summon the Holy Spirit for the sole purpose of speaking in tongues in their mass gatherings.

Remember that fear of the unknown is just as bad as exageration of the known… eventually the Holy Spirit will bring order to this chaos.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jean8]

I have read about many people claiming to be able to speak in tongues. I’ve even talked to some who claim to be able to do this. When I pressed them about it, they said that are actually speaking a language, but that it is unintelligible. One person demonstrated it for me and it sounded like porcine squeels.

If anyone can “suddenly” speak an actual human language that they weren’t able to before, then I’ll believe that they have the gift of tongues since that would by definition be a miracle. Until then, I have no reason to think that claims of “speaking n tongues” is self-deceptive and make-believe gibberish. It may be well-intentioned, but it’s still wishful thinking. Unbiblical, too.

From the Acts of the Apostles, the gift of tongues was manifested in actual human, recognizable languages:

1 When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together.
2
And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind, 2 and it filled the entire house in which they were.
3
Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, 3 which parted and came to rest on each one of them.
4
And they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues, as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim.
5
Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven staying in Jerusalem.
6
At this sound, they gathered in a large crowd, but they were confused because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
7
They were astounded, and in amazement they asked, “Are not all these people who are speaking Galileans?
8
Then how does each of us hear them in his own native language?
9
We are Parthians, Medes, and Elamites, inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10
Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya near Cyrene, as well as travelers from Rome,
11
both Jews and converts to Judaism, Cretans and Arabs, yet we hear them speaking in our own tongues of the mighty acts of God.”

Speaking in tongues today is called ‘glossolalia’
Acts 2:6-12 They spoke in actual languages. Acts 10:44, and 19:6
the Bible also teaches not all people receive the gift of tongues. 1Cor.12:30
Lives are transformed by the gift of tongues.
Go to Catholic Charismatic Renewal.org it’s hosted by Martin. I can’t think of his first name. I’m having a ‘senior moment’ with my memory. I think it’s Ralph. He appeared on the Journey Home and gave a talk about this subject.

God bless,
jean8

 

[redrosetea]

Did any of our past Popes speak in tongues?..The only tongue I am interested in is Latin

 

[christisall]

Well yes, actually, his name was Peter!

Did any of our past Popes speak in tongues?..The only tongue I am interested in is Latin

 

[christisall]

Well yes, actually, there were 12 that I know of, called the Apostles, as well as the Queen of all Saints, the Blessed Virgin Mary- they all spoke in tongues.

Can you name even one canonized saint who spoke in tongues?

 

[thistle]

Well yes, actually, there were 12 that I know of, called the Apostles, as well as the Queen of all Saints, the Blessed Virgin Mary- they all spoke in tongues.

They are all saints but none of them was canonised.

Also the tongues they spoke were foreign but real languages, and not gibberish.

 

[HannahLisa]

I have met one lady who spoke Spanish despite never having learned it formally or informally. She was just able to speak it very easily, and has a ministry to Spanish-speaking people. I’ve also met a gentleman who was able to speak Spanish for a day when a translator was desperately needed, despite the fact that he could not actually speak Spanish. I think this is the kind of gift referred to at Pentecost, since all the people around the apostles at the time were wondering why these random men were speaking their languages.

As for the way speaking in tongues is commonly treated by pentecostal or charismatic churches…I have strong doubts about that. I’m not at all sure that’s what’s referred to in the Bible, at any point.

So I would say speaking in tongues is a genuine charism, but not all the claims are genuine - in fact, most likely very few are.

 

[redrosetea]

I can see the benefit of speaking another language, not of just making noises…what’s the purpose of making noises, anyone can do that…it’s no sort of proof to me at all

I wonder if any pope besides Peter spoke in tongues, I have never heard of them doing it?

 

[Lepanto]

Well yes, actually, there were 12 that I know of, called the Apostles, as well as the Queen of all Saints, the Blessed Virgin Mary- they all spoke in tongues.

As stated before, I meant extra-biblical saints. I guess I should’ve repeated this qualifier again.

So far, despite having asked this question three or four times now, NOBODY has named a single saint.

 

[jcrichton]

Quote:
Originally Posted by christisall
Well yes, actually, there were 12 that I know of, called the Apostles, as well as the Queen of all Saints, the Blessed Virgin Mary- they all spoke in tongues.

They are all saints but none of them was canonised.

Hi, thistle!

…though I am not aware of the time of the inception (canonization) , the Church recognizes that the Apostles and their successors are Saints–their status as Saints is just as valid, if not more so, than those who were canonized once the Church instituted the formula for canonization.

…as far as non-language “speaking in tongues” St. Paul himself attests to the existence of this practice, though not in the form that is done (attributed) today.

Maran atha!

Angel