Speaking in tongues: genuine charism or silly gibberish?

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I have met one lady who spoke Spanish despite never having learned it formally or informally. She was just able to speak it very easily, and has a ministry to Spanish-speaking people. I’ve also met a gentleman who was able to speak Spanish for a day when a translator was desperately needed, despite the fact that he could not actually speak Spanish. I think this is the kind of gift referred to at Pentecost, since all the people around the apostles at the time were wondering why these random men were speaking their languages.

As for the way speaking in tongues is commonly treated by pentecostal or charismatic churches…I have strong doubts about that. I’m not at all sure that’s what’s referred to in the Bible, at any point.

So I would say speaking in tongues is a genuine charism, but not all the claims are genuine - in fact, most likely very few are.
Hi, HannahLisa!

Speaking in “strange” tongues (other than human language) is Biblical: 1 Corinthians 14:2, 5, 9, 14, 16, 18, 23–yet, I concur with you that not all that is claimed as “speaking in tongues” is necessarily genuine.

…ever seen people doing the “Macarena?” …young and old got into it… mimicking the various chants and gestures… few, at least those I got to know personally, had a clear idea of what the song was about; it is human nature to go with the flow–even to the point of believing that they are being genuine when they are only acting from “a feeling.” And, at times, the farce is purposefully orchestrated in order to “belong.”

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I can see the benefit of speaking another language, not of just making noises…what’s the purpose of making noises, anyone can do that…it’s no sort of proof to me at all

I wonder if any pope besides Peter spoke in tongues, I have never heard of them doing it?
Hi, redrosetea!

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head… speaking in tongues should not be done for popularity sake… it is doubtful that any of the Popes or Saints set out to make public their spiritual achievements–only their experiences as servants of Christ and humble devotion to the Body. St. Francis is a clear example of this modesty as he never aspired to be more than a servant of Christ Jesus.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
In Corinthians St. Paul says speaking in tongues was given, NOT because God found favor with the Corinthians, but because of their lack of faith. So, it is a gift, but it is a gift given to help the Corinthians believe, because they had too little faith.
 
Hi, redrosetea!

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head… speaking in tongues should not be done for popularity sake… it is doubtful that any of the Popes or Saints set out to make public their spiritual achievements–only their experiences as servants of Christ and humble devotion to the Body. St. Francis is a clear example of this modesty as he never aspired to be more than a servant of Christ Jesus.

Maran atha!

Angel
The Charismatics are just the opposite. They arrogantly flaunt this so-called gift of gibberish tongues. Maybe they should ask for the gift of humility instead!
 
Oh really, and what documentation do you have for that? Paul spoke of different types of tongues, which you keep denying, so I’m sure they prayed as he did, which you by the way are calling gibberish, as people pray in the spirit and tardition as described by Paul.

And you are really going to try and say or imply that since the Apostles, whose names are on the foundations of the Kingdom of Heaven as stated in Revelation, are not CANONOIZED???, somehow that classifies them different as a Catholic Saint, or lesser??? They didn’t have to be canonized, those procedures weren’t in place as they are now, they are the examples of all other saints that followed, they are the greatest of all saints, so what’s your point? If they aren’t the most Catholic of all saints, then we aren’t Catholic because that’s what it’s ll based upon, remember, that our Church goes back to Peter and the Apostles.
They are all saints but none of them was canonised.

Also the tongues they spoke were foreign but real languages, and not gibberish.
 
Obviously, the way you talk about your fellow Catholic Christians, SO SHOULD YOU!!
The Charismatics are just the opposite. They arrogantly flaunt this so-called gift of gibberish tongues. Maybe they should ask for the gift of humility instead!
 
Well, so be it, if it is needed for peoples faith then so be it.
In Corinthians St. Paul says speaking in tongues was given, NOT because God found favor with the Corinthians, but because of their lack of faith. So, it is a gift, but it is a gift given to help the Corinthians believe, because they had too little faith.
 
I can’t believe really how you, this little group of ?? some type of Catholics, have judged and jumped to the dtermination people are doing it for attention or poularity. I knwo many people who pray, including in this way, who are deacos, priests, sisters, so are you saying that these people, who have comitetd thier lives to the service of the Chrurch, given up being married, ahving children etc., you re saying they are doing it for attention or popularitry?? Have you given up your entire life to serve the Lord? Of course, marriage and all is a higher calling, but even Paul says the life devoted to the Lord is higher.

Your weak and shallow arguments really amaze me, you do mass judgement implying something I have never seen howling, attention, publicity, what’s next, what’s the nex motive you will come up with to try and jsutify your own way of doing things.
Maybe it’s mass hyteria, or better yet, demon worship (which some have implied- and have you tried demon worship in front of the blessed sacrament, which any charsimatic has done countless times?). It will be interesting to see what yoiu come up with next. The apostles aren’t good enough examples because they are not canonized, that is really pretty much laughable.
Hi, redrosetea!

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head… speaking in tongues should not be done for popularity sake… it is doubtful that any of the Popes or Saints set out to make public their spiritual achievements–only their experiences as servants of Christ and humble devotion to the Body. St. Francis is a clear example of this modesty as he never aspired to be more than a servant of Christ Jesus.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
You know, this is really getting comical.
Hi, HannahLisa!

Speaking in “strange” tongues (other than human language) is Biblical: 1 Corinthians 14:2, 5, 9, 14, 16, 18, 23–yet, I concur with you that not all that is claimed as “speaking in tongues” is necessarily genuine.

…ever seen people doing the “Macarena?” …young and old got into it… mimicking the various chants and gestures… few, at least those I got to know personally, had a clear idea of what the song was about; it is human nature to go with the flow–even to the point of believing that they are being genuine when they are only acting from “a feeling.” And, at times, the farce is purposefully orchestrated in order to “belong.”

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I figured yiu’d say that, VERY weak.
As stated before, I meant extra-biblical saints. I guess I should’ve repeated this qualifier again.

So far, despite having asked this question three or four times now, NOBODY has named a single saint.
 
Well yes, actually, his name was Peter!
christisall,
1Cor.14: explains the gift of tongues. Paul is the narrator.
In verse 18 he says, “I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.” Read the rest of the story. 🙂

God bless,
jean8
 
Praying in tongues is a gift the Holy Spirit will give (eventually) to anyone who asks and seeks it.
Says who, exactly???

Perhaps you can enlighten us?

Honestly, I would really like an answer to this question. No one else has ever answered it.
I have similar misgivings when it comes to “speaking in tongues” because my experience has been that *you must *speak in tongues or you are not mature spiritually till you are able to do so…

Maran atha!

Angel
I’ve heard this said - and insisted upon by both Charismatics and Pentecostals - but no one has ever backed it up with any scripture or authoritative teaching. In fact, such an insistence would seem to be in direct contradiction with scripture.

**1 Cor 12:**7-11 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Reading this passage in a straightforward manner would seem to show that the gifts of knowledge and wisdom don’t necessarily coincide with tongues. That may explain a few things.

1 Cor 12: 28-31 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts.

I have tried to explain that the Holy Spirit has gifted me with many gifts, but uttering a flow of syllables in an alien-sounding tongue is not among them. Yet I have been treated with scorn (at questioning it) and pity (for spiritual blindness). Perhaps, deep down inside, they are all just jealous because they can see I have gifts of knowledge and administration, and seem to have skipped a step…
http://bestsmileys.com/notlistening/2.gif
 
I figured yiu’d say that, VERY weak.
Well, why not just answer my simple request for an example? Continually avoiding the question is VERY weak.

I can name saints who levitated or bilocated. Can you name just ONE extra-biblical saint who spoke in tongues?
 
sfspirit.com/articles/9906/Article2.htm

The Church Fathers on Christian Initiation

We move now to the experience of the early Church Fathers, beginning with Tertullian in 2nd century North Africa, circa 198, who wrote a treatise On Baptism addressed to those about to receive the sacraments of initiation: Baptism, Laying on of hands, and Eucharist. He directs them to specifically ask for the charismatic gifts during initiation:

Therefore, you blessed ones, for whom the grace of God is waiting, when you come up from the most sacred bath of the new birth, when you spread out your hands for the first time in your mother’s house with your brethren, ask your Father, ask your Lord, for the special gift of his inheritance, the distributed charisms, which form an additional, underlying feature [of baptism]. Ask he says, and you shall receive. In fact, you have sought, and you have found: you have knocked and it has been opened to you. - On Baptism 20.

According to theologians McDonnell and Montague, the “spreading out your hands” refers to a posture of praise and intercession. “In your mother’s house with your brethren” refers to being in the church with the rest of the community. The newly baptized, who are about to join in the celebration of their first Eucharist, are exhorted by Tertullian to ask for the charisms. Tertullian adds, “you have sought, and you have found,” indicating that they did not ask in vain. The most obvious conclusion is that they experienced various charismatic gifts (presumably including the gift of tongues) during the Rite of Initiation. McDonnell and Montague conclude with the following:

Tertullian ostensibly wants the newly baptized to be aware that such charisms (which he does not specify) are associated with baptism, that the charisms are expected, and that the neophytes should even, at this most appropriate moment, request them… Such a prayer indicates that the charisms belonged to the normal, day to day life of the ordinary Christian community. In addition to urging this petition, Tertullian suggests that it was granted. Charisms were facts of church life in the first centuries; therefore expectations that they would be granted within the rites of initiation does not seem unusual. Christian Initiation, p. 104-105.

Tertullian was not designing a new, innovative rite of initiation, but describing the practice of the Church at the time. The charisms, including the gift of tongues, were operating in the Church. This is corroborated by Irenaeus (130-200), who writes in Against Heresies, 5:6,1:

We hear of many members of the Church who have prophetic gifts, and, by the Spirit speak with all kinds of tongues, and bring men’s secret thoughts to light for their own good, and expound the mysteries of God.

The expectation of receiving charisms at baptism continued into the 4th century. In his Tract on the Psalms, 64:14, Hilary of Poitiers, a doctor of the Church, describes baptism as an experience of “intense joy, when we feel the first stirrings of the Holy Spirit” and where “we are inundated with the gifts of the Spirit.” From his writing On the Trinity, we know that Hilary recognizes the use of all the gifts of the Spirit from 1 Corinthians 12, including the gift of tongues. Another 4th century Doctor of the Church, Cyril of Jerusalem encourages those preparing for baptism to “prepare your souls for the reception of the heavenly charisms.” (Catechetical Lectures, 18:32).
 
sfspirit.com/articles/9906/Article2.htm

The Decline of the Charisms

At the end of the 4th century we see a decline in the use of the charisms during Christian initiation. At this time John Chrysostom, an eastern Church Father, acknowledges that in Apostolic times, “whoever was baptized at once spoke in tongues and not only in tongues, but many also prophesied…” (On 1 Corinthians, 29) He states that during liturgies in the Apostolic era, “they used to compose psalms charismatically, by means of a charism.” But when describing the Church of his own times, he says “charisms are long gone.” (On 2 Thessalonians, 4) He does not mention the charisms in his list of the effects of baptism, nor does he give candidates for baptism any expectation of receiving them.

According to Kesley, in the 5th century, Augustine viewed the gift of tongues as a sign needed only for apostolic times “and it passed away.” When discussing baptism, he clearly did not expect anyone to speak in tongues:

For who expects in these days that those on whom hands are laid that they may receive the Holy Spirit should forthwith begin to speak with tongues?

Why such a decline in the use of the charisms? Chrysostom complains that the church is lacking “life and virtue… Only the tokens of the charisms remain of those ancient times.” And like Augustine, Chrysostom doesn’t think the charisms are needed any longer, saying:

In the beginning, charisms were given even to the unworthy, because the ancient period needed this help to foster the faith; but now they are not given even to the worthy because the faith is strong and firm enough not to need this support. In Principium Actorum

According to McDonnell and Montague, Chrysostom internalized and spiritualized the charisms in an attempt to show that they were still present in the church in a “modified” form:

Of the gift of tongues with unutterable groaning, Chrysostom said that this is what the deacon does in the liturgy when he intercedes for the people.

Many other reasons have been proposed for the decline in the charisms. McDonnell believes that there was a lack of theological reflection on the experience of the Holy Spirit in the early Church. He also points to an overreaction to Montanism, an heretical revival movement at the end of the 2nd century that placed exaggerated importance upon prophecy and other charisms. Since the charisms were associated with Montanis, there was guilt by association and the Church distanced herself from these manifestations. Another factor was the practice of infant baptism. Both Augustine and later Philoxenus taught that infants could receive the grace of baptism, but the experience of baptism could not be actualized until adulthood. This separation between the rite of baptism and the personal experience of Pentecost could account for a decline in charismatic experience.
 
Oh really, and what documentation do you have for that? Paul spoke of different types of tongues, which you keep denying, so I’m sure they prayed as he did, which you by the way are calling gibberish, as people pray in the spirit and tardition as described by Paul.

And you are really going to try and say or imply that since the Apostles, whose names are on the foundations of the Kingdom of Heaven as stated in Revelation, are not CANONOIZED???, somehow that classifies them different as a Catholic Saint, or lesser??? They didn’t have to be canonized, those procedures weren’t in place as they are now, they are the examples of all other saints that followed, they are the greatest of all saints, so what’s your point? If they aren’t the most Catholic of all saints, then we aren’t Catholic because that’s what it’s ll based upon, remember, that our Church goes back to Peter and the Apostles.
christisall,
Ralph Martin , a catholic, appeared on the Journey Home program on EWTN a short time a go. He has a movement about this gift on his website. If your interested go the The Journey Home website and read all about it
Acts 1:14 tells us Mary and the group with her spoke in tongues.
This group may have included all of Jesus’ brothers and several other women…
See Mt.13:55-56 it lists the names of Jesus brothers.

God bless,
jean8
 
The newly baptized, who are about to join in the celebration of their first Eucharist, are exhorted by Tertullian to ask for the charisms. Tertullian adds, “you have sought, and you have found,” indicating that they did not ask in vain. The most obvious conclusion is that they experienced various charismatic gifts (presumably including the gift of tongues) during the Rite of Initiation.
The problem with a most obvious conclusion presumably including something - anything - is that you presume too much.

It’s obvious to you, perhaps because you want to read justification for a conclusion you have already made.

What else could this mean besides acting out charismatic gifts?
You have sought and you have found…
Salvation
Peace
Healing
Home
Forgiveness
Wisdom
among other things…

So you see, your conclusion is not so obvious to the rest of us. As Saint Paul spelled out quite specifically, tongues are given to some. Not all.
 
christisall,
Ralph Martin , a catholic, appeared on the Journey Home program on EWTN a short time a go. He has a movement about this gift on his website. If your interested go the The Journey Home website and read all about it
Acts 1:14 tells us Mary and the group with her spoke in tongues.
This group may have included all of Jesus’ brothers and several other women…
See Mt.13:55-56 it lists the names of Jesus brothers.

God bless,
jean8
Acts 1:14 does **NOT **say they spoke in tongues.

Acts 1:14 All these devoted themselves with one accord to prayer, together with some women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.
 
You guys really remind me of the publican in the church, talking about all of these people who are in most cases I have seen are sincere and trying to praise the Lord, and worship the Lord, and I am not going to judge like you are enmasse, the publican who says" thank God I’m not like them, I am quiet, humble, and do not make such a big scene. No Lord, not I for I am humble, and meek", yet you condemn your brothers and sisters by your words, accusing them of faking worhip to the Lord ( a very serious matter you wouldn’t get away with in front of a holy priest or the Holy Father for example). You are bucking what the Chuch has said and acting like you are the one following true Church precepts, but others are not.

I stand by what I’ve said because the stuff you guys are saying is really quite ridiculous since you have NO perosnal experience in e.g. praying in tongues, evidently, and your mass comments about these people, though you try to come off as “charitable” are violient in nature in and of themselves as they condemn people who I know are probably in many cases very holy and dedicated to the Lord, including many religious and priests. When you make statements like"they need more humility" it seems to me you are referring to all Catholics who have(or do) prayed and worshipped in this way. If not, then you should say so, if it was some ofshoot group or something like that. Generally, in my opinion, if one has to speak of humility they generally may be lacking it themselves.

I have attended an annual event over several years where over 2,000 Catholics from around the world gather, pray, sing, the kids (and teens many reluctant at first but who come around), sing, do e.g. hand signals, attend classes all day, journal, and get down to their deepest feelings and hurts, have the oopportunity for cofession, there is dailiy mass, 24 hour adoration and intercession (they move an entore altar with angels to the convention center for the room with the Blessed Sacrament (but maybe they are faking that too, or in mass hysteria like the Macarena), etc.

My kids have loved it, the bonds they make last a lifetime. my son has told me he was really ables to share some hurts and cry over some things for the first time, as a teen. They come out with renewed interest in the Lord. The Holy Spirit and the healing power is very great there, they journal, and get up at the end and share some of the things the Lord has conveyed to them.
This is considerd a Charsimatic even, but many who come aren’t because they feel the power and the joy, the music etc. So I guess we’re all whack fanatics, mass hysteria etc. This kind of sounds like what they said at Fatima and other ongoing apparitions, those who were skeptics.

Someone mentioned St. Francis, what he would do - I’m not an expert on Francis, but I’ve been a memebr of the Secular Franciscan Order for 20 years, from what I’ve read and heard of Francis’ spiritual experiences, I’m quite certain he prayed in tingues as the Lord touched him. When he was born there was a red flaming glow over his home. As he preache once, his brothers saw the child Jesus speaking and the like. In any case, he was certainly very Charismatic in nature.

I will have no trouble looking in the mirror, I am defending many good Catholics from criticism and condemnation by a few.
You should look in the mirror. I’ve just read through all your posts in this thread. Talk about uncharitable!!
 
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