Speaking in tongues: genuine charism or silly gibberish?

[jcrichton]

I can’t believe really how you, this little group of ?? some type of Catholics, have judged and jumped to the dtermination people are doing it for attention or poularity. I knwo many people who pray, including in this way, who are deacos, priests, sisters, so are you saying that these people, who have comitetd thier lives to the service of the Chrurch, given up being married, ahving children etc., you re saying they are doing it for attention or popularitry?? Have you given up your entire life to serve the Lord? Of course, marriage and all is a higher calling, but even Paul says the life devoted to the Lord is higher.

Hi, Christ is All!

I think that you’ve missed some of my comments… I’ve stated that my belief (an opinion which is based on personal encounters with both Catholics and non-Catholics) is that not all who claim to be “speaking in tongues” are doing so genuinely; I’ve special apprehensions when it comes to those who have determined that:

• all must speak in tongues
• not having the ability to speak in tongues is demonstrative of lack of Faith or spiritual immaturity
• speaking in tongues can be taught as any other human ability
• they are blessed with the ability to summon the Holy Spirit whenever and wherever
• the only guideline is high volume and high quantity

(There might be other factors but I can’t remember at the moment…)

The fact that some who claim to speak in tongues are Priests and Nuns and other Religious is indicative of their commitment–this, of course, does not mean that any who have not given up all to serve Jesus Christ cannot have an opinion or that Priests (including Bishops) Nuns and other Religious are not vulnerable to human frailties and thus would not get caught up in the emotions/mechanics of a movement.

Your weak and shallow arguments really amaze me, you do mass judgement implying something I have never seen howling, attention, publicity, what’s next, what’s the nex motive you will come up with to try and jsutify your own way of doing things.
Maybe it’s mass hyteria, or better yet, demon worship (which some have implied- and have you tried demon worship in front of the blessed sacrament, which any charsimatic has done countless times?).

Once I was told that I should joing certain group–they claimed that “some powerful works” were being effected by the Holy Spirit; I was warned about the difference I would find in their form of worship and that I should welcome the opportunity to allow the Holy Spirit to “move” me… It did not take–I was informed that there was something impeeding the Holy Spirit… I lacked Faith or were not yet mature enough to be used by the Holy Spirit…

…we all pass judgment; I do not believe that everyone is called to speak in tongues or that all who make sounds and claim it as “speaking in tongues” is a genuine Gift of the Holy Spirit; while some believe that not acknowledging everything and everyone as having the Gift of “speaking in tongues” is judgmental.

In high school I was involved with the performing arts so I am accustomed to witnessing a large group of people act in unison as well as individuals believing that they are being genuine when they are “performing” only to please their own ego or to be part of the moment… so I’ve attempted to shed some reasons as to why some may be “performing” instead of actually allowing the Gift of speaking in tongues to revealed through them… if I have offended you with my explanations, I apologize; I am neither claiming any authority nor stating that all these experiences (people speaking in tongues) are not genuine.

It will be interesting to see what yoiu come up with next. The apostles aren’t good enough examples because they are not canonized, that is really pretty much laughable.

Again, you must be missing some of my comments… I have stated quite the opposite–I’ve used St. Paul’s statements (1 Corinthians 14:1-40) to both assert the Gift of “speaking in tongues” and demonstrate why there is apprehension amongst Catholics who question the veracity and necessity of “speaking in tongues.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

You know, this is really getting comical.

Hi, Christisall!

…I am glad that my analogy bings you some levity!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I’ve heard this said - and insisted upon by both Charismatics and Pentecostals - but no one has ever backed it up with any scripture or authoritative teaching. In fact, such an insistence would seem to be in direct contradiction with scripture.

Hi, Nan S!

I concur. There’s no Biblical Teaching that suggests that not having a Gift is demonstrative of poor spirituality or lack of Faith… Jesus actually Taught His Disciples that they must seek to be their brethrens’ servants rather than their masters; He became an example for them: the Lord and Creator serving the creatures!

1 Cor 12:

7-11 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Reading this passage in a straightforward manner would seem to show that the gifts of knowledge and wisdom don’t necessarily coincide with tongues. That may explain a few things.

1 Cor 12: 28-31 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts.

I have tried to explain that the Holy Spirit has gifted me with many gifts, but uttering a flow of syllables in an alien-sounding tongue is not among them. Yet I have been treated with scorn (at questioning it) and pity (for spiritual blindness). Perhaps, deep down inside, they are all just jealous because they can see I have gifts of knowledge and administration, and seem to have skipped a step…
These Biblical passages demonstrate that there is more than one Gift, that the Gifts are endowed by the Holy Spirit according to His determination, and that the Gifts are for the purpose of edifying the Church, the Body of Chirst–even when something as “speaking in tongues” is given to an individual for that individual’s edification, the final result must be edification of the Church!

We are called to assist one another (1 Corinthians 12:12-31), to build Christ’s Body. Having a Gift is a wonderful experience but it should not be cause for personal exaltation nor schisms in the Body of Christ.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

christisall,
1Cor.14: explains the gift of tongues. Paul is the narrator.
In verse 18 he says, “I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.” Read the rest of the story.

God bless,
jean8

Hi, jean!

Yes; but by the time Saul had become Paul, Peter, and the others, had already been given the Gifts of the Holy Spirit!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

You guys really remind me of the publican in the church, talking about all of these people who are in most cases I have seen are sincere and trying to praise the Lord, and worship the Lord, and I am not going to judge like you are enmasse, the publican who says" thank God I’m not like them, I am quiet, humble, and do not make such a big scene. No Lord, not I for I am humble, and meek", yet you condemn your brothers and sisters by your words, accusing them of faking worhip to the Lord ( a very serious matter you wouldn’t get away with in front of a holy priest or the Holy Father for example). You are bucking what the Chuch has said and acting like you are the one following true Church precepts, but others are not.

I stand by what I’ve said because the stuff you guys are saying is really quite ridiculous since you have NO perosnal experience in e.g. praying in tongues, evidently, and your mass comments about these people, though you try to come off as “charitable” are violient in nature in and of themselves as they condemn people who I know are probably in many cases very holy and dedicated to the Lord, including many religious and priests. When you make statements like"they need more humility" it seems to me you are referring to all Catholics who have(or do) prayed and worshipped in this way. If not, then you should say so, if it was some ofshoot group or something like that. Generally, in my opinion, if one has to speak of humility they generally may be lacking it themselves.

I have attended an annual event over several years where over 2,000 Catholics from around the world gather, pray, sing, the kids (and teens many reluctant at first but who come around), sing, do e.g. hand signals, attend classes all day, journal, and get down to their deepest feelings and hurts, have the oopportunity for cofession, there is dailiy mass, 24 hour adoration and intercession (they move an entore altar with angels to the convention center for the room with the Blessed Sacrament (but maybe they are faking that too, or in mass hysteria like the Macarena), etc.

My kids have loved it, the bonds they make last a lifetime. my son has told me he was really ables to share some hurts and cry over some things for the first time, as a teen. They come out with renewed interest in the Lord. The Holy Spirit and the healing power is very great there, they journal, and get up at the end and share some of the things the Lord has conveyed to them.
This is considerd a Charsimatic even, but many who come aren’t because they feel the power and the joy, the music etc. So I guess we’re all whack fanatics, mass hysteria etc. This kind of sounds like what they said at Fatima and other ongoing apparitions, those who were skeptics.

Someone mentioned St. Francis, what he would do - I’m not an expert on Francis, but I’ve been a memebr of the Secular Franciscan Order for 20 years, from what I’ve read and heard of Francis’ spiritual experiences, I’m quite certain he prayed in tingues as the Lord touched him. When he was born there was a red flaming glow over his home. As he preache once, his brothers saw the child Jesus speaking and the like. In any case, he was certainly very Charismatic in nature.

I will have no trouble looking in the mirror, I am defending many good Catholics from criticism and condemnation by a few.

Hi, Christisall!

…you continue to group everything in your reply… this only serves to obscure the points that are being made…

…my experiences have been different from yours so I must speak from them… this might place us at odds… we should accept it, without making it personal… (In one of my experiences a charismatic/prayer group went as far as removing a gentle old lady from their “reserved” area just as the celebration of the Holy Mass was about to take place–I’ve other example of such lack of charity and outright demonstrations of pride and superiority… you probably never even heard of something like it).

Again, I am not stating that all charismatic movements are filled with pretenders… and your experience may be totally different… but it is a fact that any Gift must serve to unite and edify the Body of Christ; it is also a fact that not every member of Christ’s Body has acknowledged or made manifest the Gifts of the Holy Spirit; finally, it is also a fact that not all must speak in strange tongues in order to demonstrate spiritual growth or an uncompromising Faith.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[dcdurel]

Normally the New American Bible has lots of junk as footnotes. but amazingly The New American Bible has a foot note which explains tongues perfectly. It is in 1 Cor 14 at the bottom.

[20-22] “The Corinthians pride themselves on tongues as a sign of God’s favor, a means of direct communication with him (2.28). To challenge them to a more mature appraisal, Paul draws from scripture a less flattering explanation of what speaking in tongues may signify. Isaiah threatened the people that if they failed to listen to their prophets, the Lord would speak to them (in punishment) through the lips of Assyrian conquerors (Isaiah 28:11-12). Paul compresses Isaiah’s text and makes God address his people directly. Equating tongues with foreign languages (cf 1 Cor 14:10-11), Paul concludes from Isaiah t**hat tongues are a sign not for those who believe, i.e., not a mark of God’s pleasure for those who listen to him but a mark of his displeasure with those in the community who are faithless, **who have not heeded the message that he has sent through the prophets.”

In other words, the footnote says that St. Paul is telling the Corinthians that tongues is NOT a sign of favor from God for the Corinthians, but on the other hand, it is a sign of their lack of faith.
Just as God sent the Assyrians who spoke in strange tongues to chastise the Jews through war, BECAUSE OF THEIR LACK OF FAITH, in the same way He sends the gift of tongues to the Corinthians, BECAUSE OF THEIR LACK OF FAITH. God is trying to increase their faith by these miraculous gifts, so they will believe in Him. After all, elsewhere we read the Corinthians were not the most obedient of peoples. Therefore tongues is not some special gift which only the Corinthians had, because they found favor with God, but on the other hand it was sent because of the Corinthians lack of faith.

Should we condemn the Corinthians and other religious groups because they need the gift of tongues to increase their faith in Jesus.  No.  Because we all need miracles at times to increase our faith also.

But, at the same time, we can see why those who take pride in tongues are mistaken, and we can see why all Christians don’t need these helps to increase their faith.

 

[redrosetea]

We had a group of Word of God charismatics at my church…They were very good to each other, but if you didn’t belong to their little clique, they didn’t know who you were…they certainly didn’t behave like a good Samaritan to others

They had some sort of a break within their group and are greatly diminished in numbers…they left our church when Monaghan built his personal parish at Domino Farms…

 

[Nan_S]

I thought it would be interesting to see what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about speaking in tongues.

Did you know that the Vatican has not only put the entire CCC on the web, but they have indexed every word in a complete concordance!!! You can find every reference to any topic in mere seconds. vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

Here’s what the CCC says about the charism of tongues:

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.” Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.

This is interesting. The CCC says the charism of tongues is “extraordinary,” as extraordinary as is the gift of miracle-working. The CCC also says the charism of Tongues is for building up the church. It does not say tongues is for self-enhancement.

If tongues and miracles are on the same level, and everyone can receive the gift of tongues (as the charismatics insist), why don’t we also see miracles at charismatic gatherings?

So very many charismatics and pentecostals absolutely INSIST that the gift of tongues is common, available to anyone, and the least (meaning simplest and easiest) of all charisms. The Vatican says otherwise.

Thank you Holy Father.

 

[dcdurel]

1 Cor 14:10
footnote to the NAB.

“Paul concludes from Isaiah t**hat tongues are a sign not for those who believe, i.e., not a mark of God’s pleasure for those who listen to him but a mark of his displeasure with those in the community who are faithless, **who have not heeded the message that he has sent through the prophets.”

St. Paul is telling the Corinthians that they have the gift of tongues BECAUSE they are FAITHLESS.

 

[redrosetea]

I personally know of a couple of men that had been Friends for years…One became a charismatic, his friend didn’t, both were Catholic

The Charismatic dumped his old Friend because he didn’t join Word of God…now tell me how Christian is this? I am not making this up and have no reason to lie

I have said on this thread before both the Catholic Church and the Lutheran church investigated this group for being too controlling

 

[anthony022071]

Nan S:

The problem with a most obvious conclusion presumably including something - anything - is that you presume too much.

It’s obvious to you, perhaps because you want to read justification for a conclusion you have already made.

Those were not my own words. I was quoting from this link.
sfspirit.com/articles/9906/Article2.htm

What else could this mean besides acting out charismatic gifts?
You have sought and you have found…
Salvation
Peace
Healing
Home
Forgiveness
Wisdom
among other things…

Tertullian was talking about distributed charisms.

 

[thistle]

I thought it would be interesting to see what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about speaking in tongues.

Did you know that the Vatican has not only put the entire CCC on the web, but they have indexed every word in a complete concordance!!! You can find every reference to any topic in mere seconds. vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

Here’s what the CCC says about the charism of tongues:

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.” Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.

This is interesting. The CCC says the charism of tongues is “extraordinary,” as extraordinary as is the gift of miracle-working. The CCC also says the charism of Tongues is for building up the church. It does not say tongues is for self-enhancement.

If tongues and miracles are on the same level, and everyone can receive the gift of tongues (as the charismatics insist), why don’t we also see miracles at charismatic gatherings?

So very many charismatics and pentecostals absolutely INSIST that the gift of tongues is common, available to anyone, and the least (meaning simplest and easiest) of all charisms. The Vatican says otherwise.

Thank you Holy Father.

Read again what you posted from the CCC. It does not say anywhere there that “tongues” are an unknown language that sounds gibberish to most people. It does not say they are not a foreign but real language.
Secondly the remark about building up the Church is a general remark about charisms and not specifically about tongues.
Third the Church has not said anywhere (in the CCC or wherever) that Paul was wrong when he said speaking “tongues” only builds up the individual and does nothing to build up the community of the Church.

 

[christisall]

guess that makes the Apostles and the Blessed Virgin faithless then, as they also received the gift of tongues? Just because he is saying this group needs it because they are faithless, you can’t apply that to all other people.

The gift of tongues, of prayer, of worship, praise, song, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are all given for the building up of the Body of Christ and for our edification and to lead us in the fire of His love. Jesus told the apostles when He left to not be afraid for “I will send my Comforter”, so indeed the Holy Spirit, which is one with God the Father and Son are our comforter, protector, healer. Jesus told them He would not leave them alone, for he knew what they were about to endure.

After they received the Holy Spirit, which included the gift of tongues in a very miraculous way with tongues of fire visible above them all, they all began to pray and praise God unceasingly in the language that was given to them, and all around understood what was being said. As Christ came as the new Adam and Mary the new Eve and the new Ark of the Covenant, it was fitting that she Mary be there again, and in most things found in tradition, the Apostles looked to her for leadership, comfort and guidance.

Speaking in tongues was indeed a sign of unity, unlike Babel where they all went their own way and God struck them with confusion and no one could understand each other and their creation, their idol, could not be completed.

Now this gift of the Holy Spirit, God brought unity and conversion through Christ, and all 3,000 or so in unity, because not just from the gift of tongues though it was central, but from the power of God flowing through them, they all were mass converted.

God is not as prescriptive as we might like to be, and in these days He has saw fit to pour out His Spirit in a might way again, and this is what we are experiencing, some say we are in the latter days, latter ages, who knows, with God one day is as a thousand years and vice versa. God is speaking in many, many ways, and when I hear tongues being prayed the Holy Spirit is flowing in a powerful way, so all I can do is praise God and the Holy Spirit and Jesus for all that they are doing. This is not to say there are not examples of people getting off track, I think that happens, but that is why JP II, Ratzinger and others always said stay close to the Church first and don’t get off track (e.g. ego indulgent or proetstantized).

Normally the New American Bible has lots of junk as footnotes. but amazingly The New American Bible has a foot note which explains tongues perfectly. It is in 1 Cor 14 at the bottom.

[20-22] “The Corinthians pride themselves on tongues as a sign of God’s favor, a means of direct communication with him (2.28). To challenge them to a more mature appraisal, Paul draws from scripture a less flattering explanation of what speaking in tongues may signify. Isaiah threatened the people that if they failed to listen to their prophets, the Lord would speak to them (in punishment) through the lips of Assyrian conquerors (Isaiah 28:11-12). Paul compresses Isaiah’s text and makes God address his people directly. Equating tongues with foreign languages (cf 1 Cor 14:10-11), Paul concludes from Isaiah t**hat tongues are a sign not for those who believe, i.e., not a mark of God’s pleasure for those who listen to him but a mark of his displeasure with those in the community who are faithless, **who have not heeded the message that he has sent through the prophets.”

In other words, the footnote says that St. Paul is telling the Corinthians that tongues is NOT a sign of favor from God for the Corinthians, but on the other hand, it is a sign of their lack of faith.
Just as God sent the Assyrians who spoke in strange tongues to chastise the Jews through war, BECAUSE OF THEIR LACK OF FAITH, in the same way He sends the gift of tongues to the Corinthians, BECAUSE OF THEIR LACK OF FAITH. God is trying to increase their faith by these miraculous gifts, so they will believe in Him. After all, elsewhere we read the Corinthians were not the most obedient of peoples. Therefore tongues is not some special gift which only the Corinthians had, because they found favor with God, but on the other hand it was sent because of the Corinthians lack of faith.

Should we condemn the Corinthians and other religious groups because they need the gift of tongues to increase their faith in Jesus.  No.  Because we all need miracles at times to increase our faith also.

But, at the same time, we can see why those who take pride in tongues are mistaken, and we can see why all Christians don’t need these helps to increase their faith.

 

[christisall]

I guess that makes the Apostles and the Blessed Virgin faithless then, as they also received the gift of tongues? Just because he is saying this group needs it because they are faithless, you can’t apply that to all other people.

The gift of tongues, of prayer, of worship, praise, song, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are all given for the building up of the Body of Christ and for our edification and to lead us in the fire of His love. Jesus told the apostles when He left to not be afraid for “I will send my Comforter”, so indeed the Holy Spirit, which is one with God the Father and Son are our comforter, protector, healer. Jesus told them He would not leave them alone, for he knew what they were about to endure.

After they received the Holy Spirit, which included the gift of tongues in a very miraculous way with tongues of fire visible above them all, they all began to pray and praise God unceasingly in the language that was given to them, and all around understood what was being said. As Christ came as the new Adam and Mary the new Eve and the new Ark of the Covenant, it was fitting that she Mary be there again, and in most things found in tradition, the Apostles looked to her for leadership, comfort and guidance.

Speaking in tongues was indeed a sign of unity, unlike Babel where they all went their own way and God struck them with confusion and no one could understand each other and their creation, their idol, could not be completed.

Now this gift of the Holy Spirit, God brought unity and conversion through Christ, and all 3,000 or so in unity, because not just from the gift of tongues though it was central, but from the power of God flowing through them, they all were mass converted.

God is not as prescriptive as we might like to be, and in these days He has saw fit to pour out His Spirit in a might way again, and this is what we are experiencing, some say we are in the latter days, latter ages, who knows, with God one day is as a thousand years and vice versa. God is speaking in many, many ways, and when I hear tongues being prayed the Holy Spirit is flowing in a powerful way, so all I can do is praise God and the Holy Spirit and Jesus for all that they are doing. This is not to say there are not examples of people getting off track, I think that happens, but that is why JP II, Ratzinger and others always said stay close to the Church first and don’t get off track (e.g. ego indulgent or proetstantized).

Normally the New American Bible has lots of junk as footnotes. but amazingly The New American Bible has a foot note which explains tongues perfectly. It is in 1 Cor 14 at the bottom.

[20-22] “The Corinthians pride themselves on tongues as a sign of God’s favor, a means of direct communication with him (2.28). To challenge them to a more mature appraisal, Paul draws from scripture a less flattering explanation of what speaking in tongues may signify. Isaiah threatened the people that if they failed to listen to their prophets, the Lord would speak to them (in punishment) through the lips of Assyrian conquerors (Isaiah 28:11-12). Paul compresses Isaiah’s text and makes God address his people directly. Equating tongues with foreign languages (cf 1 Cor 14:10-11), Paul concludes from Isaiah t**hat tongues are a sign not for those who believe, i.e., not a mark of God’s pleasure for those who listen to him but a mark of his displeasure with those in the community who are faithless, **who have not heeded the message that he has sent through the prophets.”

In other words, the footnote says that St. Paul is telling the Corinthians that tongues is NOT a sign of favor from God for the Corinthians, but on the other hand, it is a sign of their lack of faith.
Just as God sent the Assyrians who spoke in strange tongues to chastise the Jews through war, BECAUSE OF THEIR LACK OF FAITH, in the same way He sends the gift of tongues to the Corinthians, BECAUSE OF THEIR LACK OF FAITH. God is trying to increase their faith by these miraculous gifts, so they will believe in Him. After all, elsewhere we read the Corinthians were not the most obedient of peoples. Therefore tongues is not some special gift which only the Corinthians had, because they found favor with God, but on the other hand it was sent because of the Corinthians lack of faith.

Should we condemn the Corinthians and other religious groups because they need the gift of tongues to increase their faith in Jesus.  No.  Because we all need miracles at times to increase our faith also.

But, at the same time, we can see why those who take pride in tongues are mistaken, and we can see why all Christians don’t need these helps to increase their faith.

 

[thistle]

I guess that makes the Apostles and the Blessed Virgin faithless then, as they also received the gift of tongues? Just because he is saying this group needs it because they are faithless, you can’t apply that to all other people.

The gift of tongues, of prayer, of worship, praise, song, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are all given for the building up of the Body of Christ and for our edification and to lead us in the fire of His love. Jesus told the apostles when He left to not be afraid for “I will send my Comforter”, so indeed the Holy Spirit, which is one with God the Father and Son are our comforter, protector, healer. Jesus told them He would not leave them alone, for he knew what they were about to endure.

After they received the Holy Spirit, which included the gift of tongues in a very miraculous way with tongues of fire visible above them all, they all began to pray and praise God unceasingly in the language that was given to them, and all around understood what was being said. As Christ came as the new Adam and Mary the new Eve and the new Ark of the Covenant, it was fitting that she Mary be there again, and in most things found in tradition, the Apostles looked to her for leadership, comfort and guidance.

Speaking in tongues was indeed a sign of unity, unlike Babel where they all went their own way and God struck them with confusion and no one could understand each other and their creation, their idol, could not be completed.

Now this gift of the Holy Spirit, God brought unity and conversion through Christ, and all 3,000 or so in unity, because not just from the gift of tongues though it was central, but from the power of God flowing through them, they all were mass converted.

God is not as prescriptive as we might like to be, and in these days He has saw fit to pour out His Spirit in a might way again, and this is what we are experiencing, some say we are in the latter days, latter ages, who knows, with God one day is as a thousand years and vice versa. God is speaking in many, many ways, and when I hear tongues being prayed the Holy Spirit is flowing in a powerful way, so all I can do is praise God and the Holy Spirit and Jesus for all that they are doing. This is not to say there are not examples of people getting off track, I think that happens, but that is why JP II, Ratzinger and others always said stay close to the Church first and don’t get off track (e.g. ego indulgent or proetstantized).

The Gift of Tongues:

Acts 2:1-11

1 When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together.
2 And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind, and it filled the entire house in which they were.
3 Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, which parted and came to rest on each one of them.
4 **And they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues, as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim. **
5 Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven staying in Jerusalem.
6 At this sound, they gathered in a large crowd, but they were confused because **each one heard them speaking in his own language. **7 They were astounded, and in amazement they asked, “Are not all these people who are speaking Galileans?
8 **Then how does each of us hear them in his own native language? **
9 We are Parthians, Medes, and Elamites, inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya near Cyrene, as well as travelers from Rome,
11 both Jews and converts to Judaism, Cretans and Arabs, yet **we hear them speaking in our own tongues **of the mighty acts of God.”

Real languages. That is how they could proclaim the gospel to the crowds and many (3000 as you say) were converted.

 

[Nan_S]

Those were not my own words. I was quoting from this link.
sfspirit.com/articles/9906/Article2.htm

Tertullian was talking about distributed charisms.

You were quoting another Charismatic’s conclusion about what Tertullian meant. That doesn’t make your statement valid.

Here’s what one critic has said about your Fathers McDonnell and Montogue, and their book about Baptism in the Holy Spirit:

One should note, however, the mixed reception of the book scholarly circles. (Cf. Paul Turner, “Forum: Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit” Worship 70[5] (1996): 446-52.) Turner argues that for all the impressive citation and cataloguing of sources, three major problems afflict the work: 1) the sources often do not describe the charismatic manifestations that Montague and McDonnell claim for them; 2) ritual/ liturgical texts from the same period (on which the text is basically silent) do not detail the bestowal of charismata; and 3) the theology of initiation itself does not demand them.

So you see, your “obvious” conclusion is not nearly as obvious as you would like it to be.

I stand on my previous statement.

 

[Nan_S]

Read again what you posted from the CCC. It does not say anywhere there that “tongues” are an unknown language that sounds gibberish to most people. It does not say they are not a foreign but real language.
Secondly the remark about building up the Church is a general remark about charisms and not specifically about tongues.
Third the Church has not said anywhere (in the CCC or wherever) that Paul was wrong when he said speaking “tongues” only builds up the individual and does nothing to build up the community of the Church.

I hope you took note of the point about the CCC stating Tongues is an extraordinary gift, like miracle-working. It’s NOT a common gift, and certainly not the “least of all charisms, available to everyone” as so many Charismatics insist.

The genuine ability to spontaneously speak in another language is an extraordinary gift. It is also a rare gift. Like the apostles on the day of Pentecost, that gift is a method of communicating the Word of God in a language that others understand best.

Babbling in something that sounds like gibberish is NOT the same thing. Unless you happen to know of someone whose native language is gibberish-babbling???

 

[dcdurel]

I guess that makes the Apostles and the Blessed Virgin faithless then, as they also received the gift of tongues? Just because he is saying this group needs it because they are faithless, you can’t apply that to all other people.

St. Paul is wrong?

St. Paul never rejected the Apostles speaking in different languages for the benefit of those who never heard of Jesus, but he did reject the belief of the Corinthians that they were favored by God because they had the gift of tongues. The Corinthians were not the most holy or faithful of Christians. Just read the other letter he wrote to them.
** St. Paul is very clear. God chastised the Jews for their lack of faith by sending those who spoke in strange tongues, Assyrians to make war on them. God was doing the same thing to the Corinthians because of their lack of faith. But He did it in a more gentle way, by the miraculous gift of tongues.

** But the prideful Corinthians took these gifts wrongly, in that they thought they were special. On the contrary, St. Paul was pointing out that they had the gift because of their lack of faith.

 

[thistle]

I hope you took note of the point about the CCC stating Tongues is an extraordinary gift, like miracle-working. It’s NOT a common gift, and certainly not the “least of all charisms, available to everyone” as so many Charismatics insist.

The genuine ability to spontaneously speak in another language is an extraordinary gift. It is also a rare gift. Like the apostles on the day of Pentecost, that gift is a method of communicating the Word of God in a language that others understand best.

Babbling in something that sounds like gibberish is NOT the same thing. **Unless you happen to know of someone whose native language is gibberish-babbling???**QUOTE]

How about the charismatics? I wonder if they have to take exams in gibberish?

 

[christisall]

So you’re stating that you now for sure that this speaking is “gibberish”? How would you know that, do you speak all languages, including angelic language, and can make this determination? Of course you don’t, that’s why your statements are simply your personal opinion, not fact.

To be able to state it is gibbersih, you would have to 1.) be present at a Catholic Charismatic prayer meeting led by someone qualified; 2.) Know all languages(including all provided by God in these days including angelic languages) because otherwise how would you know it is gibberish. It doesn’t appear to me either of these apply to you, in my opinion.

So state what you want, it doesn’t make it so.

Nan S;3819135:

I hope you took note of the point about the CCC stating Tongues is an extraordinary gift, like miracle-working. It’s NOT a common gift, and certainly not the “least of all charisms, available to everyone” as so many Charismatics insist.

The genuine ability to spontaneously speak in another language is an extraordinary gift. It is also a rare gift. Like the apostles on the day of Pentecost, that gift is a method of communicating the Word of God in a language that others understand best.

Babbling in something that sounds like gibberish is NOT the same thing. Unless you happen to know of someone whose native language is gibberish-babbling???

QUOTE]

How about the charismatics? I wonder if they have to take exams in gibberish?