Speaking in tongues: genuine charism or silly gibberish?

[thistle]

**So you’re stating that you now for sure that this speaking is “gibberish”? How would you know that, do you speak all languages, including angelic language, and can make this determination? Of course you don’t, that’s why your statements are simply your personal opinion, not fact.

To be able to state it is gibbersih, you would have to 1.) be present at a Catholic Charismatic prayer meeting led by someone qualified; 2.) Know all languages(including all provided by God in these days including angelic languages) because otherwise how would you know it is gibberish. It doesn’t appear to me either of these apply to you, in my opinion.

So state what you want, it doesn’t make it so.**
thistle;3819490:
Absolutely ludicrous to say a person has to know every language in the world to determine if gibberish is being spoken. No rational person would believe that.

I have been present at a Charismatic meeting (Life in the Spirit) led by someone qualified. He was clearly in charge of the group and the meeting. He is also the silly man who stated that speaking “tongues” is the ONLY way to communicate with the Holy Spirit. How could anybody either be so stupid or arrogant to say that??

By the way to quote you, “say what you want, it doesn’t make it so”.

 

[christisall]

You’ll note the end of my statement, “in my opinion”.

Well it’s good to know you are basing at least part of your assertion on what someone has done erroneously. If the person told you that " speaking in “tongues” is the ONLY way to communicate with the Holy Spirit", then he is NOT qualified, as no one at the high levels of leadership in the Charismatic Renewal would tell you that, or who is experienced and in proper balance, the person who told you that is off on his own on that one. This can happen, when they do not follow the Church and the guidance provided to them from recognized organizations within the Church structure for the Charismatic Renewal.

If this is in fact what was said, it is unfortunate it was said within a Life in the Spirit Seminar, which is generally done in a semi-formal setting, and in churches usually, so to the outsider it could be presuemed to be church sponsored, so-to-speak. If an individual goes off on a tangent in this setting it could definitely mislead and cause pain and misunderstanding.

In one city I came from, the Archbishop appointed a laison for Charismatic Renewal, a priest, which helps in keeping things on track, but some groups (or persons) can get off track as well. I would report them to the higher authority if this occurred.

As far as gibberish, when I read what those who hold this view state, they certainly seem to imply that most or all of it is gibberish, and a rational person could not presume, in my opinion, to know all things about all the thousands of prayer meetings and people in the world, with respect to languages being spoken.

In addition, the Church, which approves the movement, does not require oversight for all gifts everywhere at all times, how could they? They recognize the gifts are being used and always encourage staying close to the Church, and JPII, Benedict, and Paul VI have all praised the Charismatic renewal as a force for renewal in the Church, and I’d rather listen to them and their collective wisdom, discernment, and authority (they wear the ring of Peter) over a lay person.

**So you’re stating that you now for sure that this speaking is “gibberish”? How would you know that, do you speak all languages, including angelic language, and can make this determination? Of course you don’t, that’s why your statements are simply your personal opinion, not fact.

To be able to state it is gibbersih, you would have to 1.) be present at a Catholic Charismatic prayer meeting led by someone qualified; 2.) Know all languages(including all provided by God in these days including angelic languages) because otherwise how would you know it is gibberish. It doesn’t appear to me either of these apply to you, in my opinion.

So state what you want, it doesn’t make it so.**

Absolutely ludicrous to say a person has to know every language in the world to determine if gibberish is being spoken. No rational person would believe that.

I have been present at a Charismatic meeting (Life in the Spirit) led by someone qualified. He was clearly in charge of the group and the meeting. He is also the silly man who stated that speaking “tongues” is the ONLY way to communicate with the Holy Spirit. How could anybody either be so stupid or arrogant to say that??

By the way to quote you, “say what you want, it doesn’t make it so”.

 

[anthony022071]

[Nan S]

You were quoting another Charismatic’s conclusion about what Tertullian meant. That doesn’t make your statement valid.

Here’s what one critic has said about your Fathers McDonnell and Montogue, and their book about Baptism in the Holy Spirit:

So you see, your “obvious” conclusion is not nearly as obvious as you would like it to be.

I stand on my previous statement.

Irenaeus,Against Heresies, 5:6,1:

“We hear of many members of the Church who have prophetic gifts, and, by the Spirit speak with all kinds of tongues, and bring men’s secret thoughts to light for their own good, and expound the mysteries of God.”

 

[Monica4316]

I believe that speaking in tongues is a real gift of the Holy Spirit… of course, not always, sometimes it’s just something emotional/psychological or even demonic. But I believe there are real cases out there. And yea you can tell by the fruit… if it leads a person closer to God, the Church, the Sacraments… if it helps them be more loving, if they aren’t tempted to pride, etc… then it’s probably from God
I went to a charismatic Mass once and it was a great experience, it was very peaceful and the people there were very loving.

God bless

monica

 

[thistle]

You’ll note the end of my statement, “in my opinion”.

Well it’s good to know you are basing at least part of your assertion on what someone has done erroneously. If the person told you that " speaking in “tongues” is the ONLY way to communicate with the Holy Spirit", then he is NOT qualified, as no one at the high levels of leadership in the Charismatic Renewal would tell you that, or who is experienced and in proper balance, the person who told you that is off on his own on that one. This can happen, when they do not follow the Church and the guidance provided to them from recognized organizations within the Church structure for the Charismatic Renewal.

If this is in fact what was said, it is unfortunate it was said within a Life in the Spirit Seminar, which is generally done in a semi-formal setting, and in churches usually, so to the outsider it could be presuemed to be church sponsored, so-to-speak. If an individual goes off on a tangent in this setting it could definitely mislead and cause pain and misunderstanding.

In one city I came from, the Archbishop appointed a laison for Charismatic Renewal, a priest, which helps in keeping things on track, but some groups (or persons) can get off track as well. I would report them to the higher authority if this occurred.

As far as gibberish, when I read what those who hold this view state, they certainly seem to imply that most or all of it is gibberish, and a rational person could not presume, in my opinion, to know all things about all the thousands of prayer meetings and people in the world, with respect to languages being spoken.

In addition, the Church, which approves the movement, does not require oversight for all gifts everywhere at all times, how could they? They recognize the gifts are being used and always encourage staying close to the Church, and JPII, Benedict, and Paul VI have all praised the Charismatic renewal as a force for renewal in the Church, and I’d rather listen to them and their collective wisdom, discernment, and authority (they wear the ring of Peter) over a lay person.
UNQUOTE

This phrase keeps getting thrown in. How many times do the many posters have to say it, approving of the movement does not mean that the Church is saying that all or even any individual in the movement has the ability to speak in tongues.
The gift of tongues is an extraordinary gift. Extraordinary gifts are only declared genuine if discerned and approved by the Church. This has not happened.

 

[Nan_S]

This phrase keeps getting thrown in. How many times do the many posters have to say it, approving of the movement does not mean that the Church is saying that all or even any individual in the movement has the ability to speak in tongues.
The gift of tongues is an extraordinary gift. Extraordinary gifts are only declared genuine if discerned and approved by the Church. This has not happened.

Father William G. Most (may he RIP), a well-recognized apologetics expert who worked extensively with EWTN, echoed what you said. He went on to make another excellent point about the relationship between Charisms and Grace:

Vatican II, Lumen gentium 12 said of the extraordinary gifts: “… they are not to be rashly sought, nor should one presumptuously expect of them the fruits of the apostolic works; but the judgment as to whether or not they are genuine, and as to their ordered use pertains to those who are in charge in the Church… .”

Still further, the possession of extraordinary charismatic favors does not even prove those who have them are in the state of grace. We think of the frightening words of Our Lord Himself in Mt 7:22-23: “Many will say to me on that day [at the end]: Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, and in your name cast out devils, and have done many marvels in your name? And then I will declare to them: I never knew you: depart from me you workers of iniquity.”

Please don’t mistake the point. I’m not trying to suggest that charisms are not outward signs from God. However, like the people whom Jesus refers to in this passage from Matthew’s gospel, charisms are not enough unless there is also genuine spiritual depth and conversion beneath the outward signs.

Simply having the emotional experience of being “slain in the spirit” and uttering streams of apparently unintelligible syllables will not get you past the Pearly Gates. The real danger is that when charisms are the primary focus, and a hard connection is drawn between charisms and saving grace, people are mislead into a shallow spirituality that may ultimately result in their eternal doom.

 

[christisall]

I would say first that the same danger applies to those who sit off in judgement of e.g. fellow Catholics who are extremely devoted to the Lord, and by a Traditionalist, myopic mentality (and basically fear), judge something to be not of the Lord when it actually is. There is a real danger in this, every much as any EVIL that is being attributed to those crazy Charsimatic Catholics.

Most people I’ve known who are in some way associated with prayer in the Spirit, e.g. tongues, praises of the Lord, etc. are just as described above, prayerful, Spirit led, DAILY mass, prayer before the Blessed Sacrament, rosaries, etc. etc. etc.

To praise the name of Jesus over and over, thank Him, such as is done in “Charismatic” worship, the devil or demons would have to endure a lot to hang around and create demon worship. After all, if we have even a LITTLE bit of faith, we know that at Jesus’ name every demon shall flee. If we repeat it over and over again in faith, anyone who believes Jesus is not present in a powerful way, in my opinion, is a false prophet and approaching a schismatic.

Jesus said whenever two or more gather in my name, I am there in the midst of them.We remember what Jesus said to the Disciples, when they came running up to Him to tell Him about the man who was using His name to cast out demons, and by golly, he was not authorized to do so. What did Jesus say? Leave him be for anyone who is not against us if for us.

So you people are going to tell me(or imply) that Catholics, in the framework of the Mass, praising the Lord and praying in the Spirit may in danger of eternal damnation?

All I can say is praise you JESUS, praise your HOLY NAME, bless you for You are mighty indeed. That reminds me, many times in this type of prayer setting, these are the types of words that break forth, like Psalms, telling of our God and His mighty deeds? Do we need an interpreter for these as well?

I think that some of you need to increase your prayer life and ask the LORD what he feels about all of this, not intellectually because although this intellectual analysis is nice, the Lord looks at our hearts, not our heads. St. Fancis when he came back after a long period, his brothers had built a huge library of books, and other comforts, and he began throwing them (books) all out for they lost sight of what they were called to do. Eventually, he had to compromise and allow some of this, but the point is well taken.

We see it over and over again, from our Lord that he desires mercy, not sacrifice, that when He comes, we will worship in truth. He promised to send the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, which we are sealed with in Confirmation, and awakened in a powerful way through renewal in the Holy Spirit.

Simply having the emotional experience of being “slain in the spirit” and uttering streams of apparently unintelligible syllables will not get you past the Pearly Gates. The real danger is that when charisms are the primary focus, and a hard connection is drawn between charisms and saving grace, people are **mislead into a shallow spirituality that may ultimately result in their eternal doom./**QUOTE]

 

[thistle]

I would say first that the same danger applies to those who sit off in judgement of e.g. fellow Catholics who are extremely devoted to the Lord, and by a Traditionalist, myopic mentality (and basically fear), judge something to be not of the Lord when it actually is. There is a real danger in this, every much as any EVIL that is being attributed to those crazy Charsimatic Catholics.

Most people I’ve known who are in some way associated with prayer in the Spirit, e.g. tongues, praises of the Lord, etc. are just as described above, prayerful, Spirit led, DAILY mass, prayer before the Blessed Sacrament, rosaries, etc. etc. etc.

To praise the name of Jesus over and over, thank Him, such as is done in “Charismatic” worship, the devil or demons would have to endure a lot to hang around and create demon worship. After all, if we have even a LITTLE bit of faith, we know that at Jesus’ name every demon shall flee. If we repeat it over and over again in faith, anyone who believes Jesus is not present in a powerful way, in my opinion, is a false prophet and approaching a schismatic.

Jesus said whenever two or more gather in my name, I am there in the midst of them.We remember what Jesus said to the Disciples, when they came running up to Him to tell Him about the man who was using His name to cast out demons, and by golly, he was not authorized to do so. What did Jesus say? Leave him be for anyone who is not against us if for us.

So you people are going to tell me(or imply) that Catholics, in the framework of the Mass, praising the Lord and praying in the Spirit may in danger of eternal damnation?

All I can say is praise you JESUS, praise your HOLY NAME, bless you for You are mighty indeed. That reminds me, many times in this type of prayer setting, these are the types of words that break forth, like Psalms, telling of our God and His mighty deeds? Do we need an interpreter for these as well?

I think that some of you need to increase your prayer life and ask the LORD what he feels about all of this, not intellectually because although this intellectual analysis is nice, the Lord looks at our hearts, not our heads. St. Fancis when he came back after a long period, his brothers had built a huge library of books, and other comforts, and he began throwing them (books) all out for they lost sight of what they were called to do. Eventually, he had to compromise and allow some of this, but the point is well taken.

We see it over and over again, from our Lord that he desires mercy, not sacrifice, that when He comes, we will worship in truth. He promised to send the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, which we are sealed with in Confirmation, and awakened in a powerful way through renewal in the Holy Spirit.
UNQUOTE

You are the most judgemental person in the entire thread. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!!!

 

[redrosetea]

I don’t understand why confirmation when many people are confirmed at once doesn’t release this gift…Sometimes many are confirmed at the same time…I seen a lot of confirmations and never heard anyone speak in tongues?

I had a snaky pm from someone on this very thread because she invited me to read her blog about her speaking in tongues , she even claimed to have a British accent while doing it,and I didn’t believe it was true…she got mad about it…I was very polite to her, she was nasty to me

I went to her blog at her request…How Christian is that ?

 

[Lepanto]

I would say first that the same danger applies to those who sit off in judgement of e.g. fellow Catholics who are extremely devoted to the Lord, and by a Traditionalist, myopic mentality (and basically fear), judge something to be not of the Lord when it actually is.

To say that the traditionalist mentality is myopic and fearful is quite the judgment!

And besides, it is not just the traditionalists who question the authenticity, practices, and theology of the charismatic “movement.”

 

[Nan_S]

To say that the traditionalist mentality is myopic and fearful is quite the judgment!

And besides, it is not just the traditionalists who question the authenticity, practices, and theology of the charismatic “movement.”

Agreed.
The same slur about traditionalism being myopic and fearful is raised in every arena of life.

Consider:
“My parents are so old fashioned. They won’t let me stay out with my buddies until 4:00 am.”
“The church needs to get with the times. Birth control is good.”
“I only had a few drinks. I’m safe to drive.”

I think you get the idea. Wisdom is to be found in the caution behind traditionalism. We traditionalists are not arguing that Speaking in Tongues does not exist. What we question is the excessive way it has been “manifested” in the Charismatic and Pentocostal circles.

A little bit of math should help to clarify things. Linguists have told us that the Earth has perhaps 6,400 different languages. The Charismatics have thrown this number up repeatedly, daring us to admit that their tongue-speech could be one of these 6,400 languages and we are just too ignorant to recognize it.

How many Charismatic and Pentecostal tongue-speakers exist? Could we safely say that it is well in excess of 6,400? Did you know that the Assemblies of God alone claims over 10 Million members? Charismatic and Pentecostal Christians just in the United States are estimated to be in excess of 30 Million. Some sources claim the United States number is as high as 80 Million. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostalism 80,000,000 divided by 6,400 means that each of those languages would have 12,500 tongue-speakers per language just in the United States.

It has been my personal observation that most individual tongue-speakers tend to use the same vocalizations each time. There is a fair amount of repetitive consistency here, especially in established tongue-speakers. Yet, amongst these vast Millions of Charismatics and Pentecostals, each claiming that she believes she is possibly speaking one of these 6,400 unknown languages, how often do you hear any two together using the same tongue-speech vocalizations? I’ve never witnessed that. Ever.

I can go into any public place and hear groups of people conversing in Spanish, Arabic, German, French, Japanese, Chinese… I have never, ever, even at Charismatic or Pentecostal prayer meetings, seen a group of tongue-speakers carrying on an intelligent conversation in tongue-speech. No, whether they want to say “the prayer meeting is starting” or “where is the bathroom” they switch to English!!!

 

[jcrichton]

Simply having the emotional experience of being “slain in the spirit” and uttering streams of apparently unintelligible syllables will not get you past the Pearly Gates. The real danger is that when charisms are the primary focus, and a hard connection is drawn between charisms and saving grace, people are mislead into a shallow spirituality that may ultimately result in their eternal doom.

Hi, Nan S!

I fully concur!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[redrosetea]

I think christisal is a sincere person…He didn’t get angry and throw a snit fit because he is doubted

Someone did this but it wasn’t him…I don’t think a true spirit filled person would act like this, but a wanna be sure would

I believe tongues happen to people. It happened to Mother Angelica alone, and in her convent. She wasn’t at some big hoopla meeting, nor did she ever try to flaunt it, she hid it

I think it’s real ,and it happens, but its not some party trick…Why doesn’t these tongue speakers speak a known language they have never been taught like French or German? That would be a truer test for me, anyone can make noise, in fact an empty barrel makes the loudest noise

Christisal I think you are a sincere person and perhaps you really do speak in tongues, but I give you a lot of credit for understanding doubters, and doing it with patience

 

[jcrichton]

I would say first that the same danger applies to those who sit off in judgement of e.g. fellow Catholics who are extremely devoted to the Lord, and by a Traditionalist, myopic mentality (and basically fear), judge something to be not of the Lord when it actually is. There is a real danger in this, every much as any EVIL that is being attributed to those crazy Charsimatic Catholics.

Hi, Christisall!

St. Paul tells us to study (search) everything and keep what is good… I do not think that stating that not all who contend that they are speaking in tongues is a judgment that is being passed due to the strangeness of the sounds being made… rather, it is an accumulative judgment which includes the strange sounds, the pressure of those in the “in” to have everyone do as they do (which you have to agree has a peculiar cultist tone), the various statements made as to being in the Spirit or at a higher spiritual level or more dovoted/open or blessed by the Holy Spirit or filled with Faith–these are also used in the negative form when addressing the failure of others to not “speak in tongues.”

Most people I’ve known who are in some way associated with prayer in the Spirit, e.g. tongues, praises of the Lord, etc. are just as described above, prayerful, Spirit led, DAILY mass, prayer before the Blessed Sacrament, rosaries, etc. etc. etc.

This is wonderful… however, I’ve known a few who have decided that their “special meets” are even more important than the celebration of the Holy Mass… they drop in whenever, make conversation and plans, pick up the Host and leave… sometimes right after receiving the Eucharist… sometimes they only drop in to pick up the Host… yet, come their meets… everyone’s there, for hours at a time!

…at one parish they even dictated to the Pastor what, when and how… under threats of taking their group somewhere else…

I’ve experience less humility and charity from these *most enlightened *Catholics than from non-Catholics who happened to take part of a Church activity or the celebration of the Holy Mass!

To praise the name of Jesus over and over, thank Him, such as is done in “Charismatic” worship, the devil or demons would have to endure a lot to hang around and create demon worship. After all, if we have even a LITTLE bit of faith, we know that at Jesus’ name every demon shall flee. If we repeat it over and over again in faith, anyone who believes Jesus is not present in a powerful way, in my opinion, is a false prophet and approaching a schismatic.

If Satan could dare challenge Jesus Himself it seems reasonable that he and his minions wouldn’t mind suffering through a Christian celebration… however, I don’t think that most people believe that demon worship is being done by charismatics… I think that a warning has been given that by becoming an extremist when it comes to “speaking in tongues” (must be done; everyone must do it; it is an obligation received at Baptism; the person that experiences it is a highly spiritual person…) we may fall into error to the point of excluding true worship for what may only be a “feeling/emotion” and a sense of “spiritual maturity.”

The comparison was made that similar sounds are employed in cultural and satanic chants–this by no means is a claim that charismatic movements are santanic worshipers.

Jesus said whenever two or more gather in my name, I am there in the midst of them.We remember what Jesus said to the Disciples, when they came running up to Him to tell Him about the man who was using His name to cast out demons, and by golly, he was not authorized to do so. What did Jesus say? Leave him be for anyone who is not against us if for us.

Jesus also warned about repetion in prayer… just because much is being said does not mean that it is pleasing to our Lord… and while those who were taking Jesus’ name and acting on His behalf were not stopped from continuing in their practice, they were still subject to the same obligations as the Disciples… further, I believe that once the Holy Spirit came to the Church on Pentecost all those who existed in the fringes of the Way would be called to the Unity of the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit–strong persecutions began at the onset of Pentecost–all who proclaimed the Name of Christ would suffer through it!

So you people are going to tell me(or imply) that Catholics, in the framework of the Mass, praising the Lord and praying in the Spirit may in danger of eternal damnation?

If they believe that they are “saved” by what they do and that those who do not do it are “condemned” or, in the least, are not as dovoted to Christ as they… yes!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I think it’s real ,and it happens, but its not some party trick…Why doesn’t these tongue speakers speak a known language they have never been taught like French or German? That would be a truer test for me, anyone can make noise, in fact an empty barrel makes the loudest noise

Hi, redrosetea!

…I don’t think that speaking a known language is truer proof since anyone can feign to not speak a language (as blind, deaf, mute, lame…) only to wondrously pronounce certain words… I think that a true test is how this miracle (Gift) infuses the speakers with the Holy Spirit in a manner that is visibly known to all: fill them with humility, love, obedience, perseverance, generosity, happiness, loyalty, prudence, patience, conscientiousness… all of the characteristics that can and is usefull in edifying the individual and the Church.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jean8]

The problem with a most obvious conclusion presumably including something - anything - is that you presume too much.

It’s obvious to you, perhaps because you want to read justification for a conclusion you have already made.

What else could this mean besides acting out charismatic gifts?
You have sought and you have found…
Salvation
Peace
Healing
Home
Forgiveness
Wisdom
among other things…

So you see, your conclusion is not so obvious to the rest of us. As Saint Paul spelled out quite specifically, tongues are given to some. Not all.

In the Bible, early church, we are told the disciples (believers) spoke in known languages… Today they speak what is known as 'glosslalia. 'Lives have been transformed by this gift. You are right, not all speak in tongues, but they are saved just the same. Oneness Pentecostals teach tongues are required to be saved, yet there is not one passage in the Bible that teaches this.

God bless,
jean8

 

[jean8]

To say that the traditionalist mentality is myopic and fearful is quite the judgment!

And besides, it is not just the traditionalists who question the authenticity, practices, and theology of the charismatic “movement.”

Ralph Martin champions the Gift of Tongues. He has written books about this subject and has appeared on the Jourrney Home TV. program with Marc Grodi.
You may want to look his name up and read what he has to say about tongues.
He is a Catholic.

christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00171_the_charismatic_movement_web.htm

God bless,
jean8

 

[jean8]

Hi, Nan S!

I fully concur!

Maran atha!

Angel

The Bible clearly teaches that tongues are one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.1Cor.14. (Acts.10:44, 19:6,) it also teaches not all speak in tongues. Acts 2:41, Acts 4:4
Being slain in the Spirit is not! The Bible doesn’t mention this, or holy laughter or jumping around in a frenzied manner. A Spirit filled person always has control of their emotions. Thank God for that. it’s the Holy Spirit that gives this gift as he dertermines. See 1Cor.12:11)
We all know the Holy Spirit is God. Acts5:3-4

God bless you,
jean8

 

[jean8]

Hi, Christisall!

St. Paul tells us to study (search) everything and keep what is good… I do not think that stating that not all who contend that they are speaking in tongues is a judgment that is being passed due to the strangeness of the sounds being made… rather, it is an accumulative judgment which includes the strange sounds, the pressure of those in the “in” to have everyone do as they do (which you have to agree has a peculiar cultist tone), the various statements made as to being in the Spirit or at a higher spiritual level or more dovoted/open or blessed by the Holy Spirit or filled with Faith–these are also used in the negative form when addressing the failure of others to not “speak in tongues.”

This is wonderful… however, I’ve known a few who have decided that their “special meets” are even more important than the celebration of the Holy Mass… they drop in whenever, make conversation and plans, pick up the Host and leave… sometimes right after receiving the Eucharist… sometimes they only drop in to pick up the Host… yet, come their meets… everyone’s there, for hours at a time!

…at one parish they even dictated to the Pastor what, when and how… under threats of taking their group somewhere else…

I’ve experience less humility and charity from these *most enlightened *Catholics than from non-Catholics who happened to take part of a Church activity or the celebration of the Holy Mass!

If Satan could dare challenge Jesus Himself it seems reasonable that he and his minions wouldn’t mind suffering through a Christian celebration… however, I don’t think that most people believe that demon worship is being done by charismatics… I think that a warning has been given that by becoming an extremist when it comes to “speaking in tongues” (must be done; everyone must do it; it is an obligation received at Baptism; the person that experiences it is a highly spiritual person…) we may fall into error to the point of excluding true worship for what may only be a “feeling/emotion” and a sense of “spiritual maturity.”

The comparison was made that similar sounds are employed in cultural and satanic chants–this by no means is a claim that charismatic movements are santanic worshipers.

Jesus also warned about repetion in prayer… just because much is being said does not mean that it is pleasing to our Lord… and while those who were taking Jesus’ name and acting on His behalf were not stopped from continuing in their practice, they were still subject to the same obligations as the Disciples… further, I believe that once the Holy Spirit came to the Church on Pentecost all those who existed in the fringes of the Way would be called to the Unity of the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit–strong persecutions began at the onset of Pentecost–all who proclaimed the Name of Christ would suffer through it!

If they believe that they are “saved” by what they do and that those who do not do it are “condemned” or, in the least, are not as dovoted to Christ as they… yes!

Maran atha!

Angel

angel,
I like your postscript. God is watching ‘and’ writing down all of what we say in the Book of Life. We will someday go over our careless words with Him. Rev.21:27

God bless,
jean8

 

[Nan_S]

To praise the name of Jesus over and over, thank Him, such as is done in “Charismatic” worship, the devil or demons would have to endure a lot to hang around and create demon worship. After all, if we have even a LITTLE bit of faith, we know that at Jesus’ name every demon shall flee. If we repeat it over and over again in faith, anyone who believes Jesus is not present in a powerful way, in my opinion, is a false prophet and approaching a schismatic.

Jesus said whenever two or more gather in my name, I am there in the midst of them.We remember what Jesus said to the Disciples, when they came running up to Him to tell Him about the man who was using His name to cast out demons, and by golly, he was not authorized to do so. What did Jesus say? Leave him be for anyone who is not against us if for us.

So you people are going to tell me(or imply) that Catholics, in the framework of the Mass, praising the Lord and praying in the Spirit may in danger of eternal damnation?

Yes, I am.

Saying the words means little unless there is true conversion and action behind them. The pews are full of hypocrites.

But this did not come from me. Jesus Himself proclaimed it.

Mt 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’”