C
cazayoux
Guest
… my cousin sent a link for the live feed. Very cool!!
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… my cousin sent a link for the live feed. Very cool!!
U
uther
Guest
If we are to read St. Paul in the entire context of his first letter to the Corinthian Church, in particular Chapter 14, we see that the beauty of all of this is that we don’t have to answer the question that is the subject of this thread. Genuine charism or silly gibberish? Even St. Paul didn’t try to make the determination on a case by case basis.
That was the entire reason for the rules of order that he laid down for the Corinthian Church and for us by extension. Searching for this among the Fathers and Church documents yields very little direct instruction or clarification, so our gold standard is still St. Paul’s instructions to the Corinthian Church.
There is a sophistry, which Patrick Madrid has called a distinction without a difference, whereby “speaking” in tongues is distinguished from “praying” in tongues for the purposes of interpretation. St. Paul makes the distinction but points out that “praying” in tongues is between that person and God and overarches the entire discussion with the final words that God is not a God of chaos but of order.
Here’s the point. If someone is praying in tongues loud enough so that all or many can hear it there is only one reason. It is precisely so that any or all can hear it. That brings it into the category of “speaking” in tongues and requires either interpretation or silence, and the limits of 2 or 3 maximum.
Where does this apply? Some have said only in the Mass. I would suggest that St. Paul says “in the Church” which to me indicates any Church sponsored and authorized event. Private meetings of Catholics on their own time in their own homes or halls is another story.
Does any of this call into question anyone’s faith? or anyone’s gift? Not at all. Does it forbid tongues? Not at all. Does it quench the Spirit? St. Paul didn’t think so. But I will guarantee, if obeyed, it would change the movement.
As a practical rule of thumb for anyone who knows little or nothing about the phenomenon, St. Paul’s point about God being a God of order is the best. If I walk into a meeting or Mass or anything else purporting to be Catholic and it is chaotic, I can say with assurance that at least in part it is not of God. There are only two other sources it could be, but I don’t even have to determine which it is. I can walk away.
In the first chapter of Galations St. Paul says that even if an “angel” were to preach another gospel than what St. Paul had preached to them they should disregard it. Do we really think that St. Paul was expecting an angel to come down and preach?
He was using hyperbole. He had a sense of humour. In his letter to the Corinthians he is trying to make the point stronger regarding the necessity of love, and he using the same hyperbole. “Even if I could speak in the language of the angels” does not mean that he thinks “tongues” is the language of the angels. If we read the entire letter we can see how ridiculous that is, a real stretch.
However, either way, if the rules that St. Paul set down were obeyed, the point would be moot.
That was the entire reason for the rules of order that he laid down for the Corinthian Church and for us by extension. Searching for this among the Fathers and Church documents yields very little direct instruction or clarification, so our gold standard is still St. Paul’s instructions to the Corinthian Church.
There is a sophistry, which Patrick Madrid has called a distinction without a difference, whereby “speaking” in tongues is distinguished from “praying” in tongues for the purposes of interpretation. St. Paul makes the distinction but points out that “praying” in tongues is between that person and God and overarches the entire discussion with the final words that God is not a God of chaos but of order.
Here’s the point. If someone is praying in tongues loud enough so that all or many can hear it there is only one reason. It is precisely so that any or all can hear it. That brings it into the category of “speaking” in tongues and requires either interpretation or silence, and the limits of 2 or 3 maximum.
Where does this apply? Some have said only in the Mass. I would suggest that St. Paul says “in the Church” which to me indicates any Church sponsored and authorized event. Private meetings of Catholics on their own time in their own homes or halls is another story.
Does any of this call into question anyone’s faith? or anyone’s gift? Not at all. Does it forbid tongues? Not at all. Does it quench the Spirit? St. Paul didn’t think so. But I will guarantee, if obeyed, it would change the movement.
As a practical rule of thumb for anyone who knows little or nothing about the phenomenon, St. Paul’s point about God being a God of order is the best. If I walk into a meeting or Mass or anything else purporting to be Catholic and it is chaotic, I can say with assurance that at least in part it is not of God. There are only two other sources it could be, but I don’t even have to determine which it is. I can walk away.
In the first chapter of Galations St. Paul says that even if an “angel” were to preach another gospel than what St. Paul had preached to them they should disregard it. Do we really think that St. Paul was expecting an angel to come down and preach?
He was using hyperbole. He had a sense of humour. In his letter to the Corinthians he is trying to make the point stronger regarding the necessity of love, and he using the same hyperbole. “Even if I could speak in the language of the angels” does not mean that he thinks “tongues” is the language of the angels. If we read the entire letter we can see how ridiculous that is, a real stretch.
However, either way, if the rules that St. Paul set down were obeyed, the point would be moot.
S
Saphien
Guest
Hi there,
Thank you for your interesting comments. I have a little problem and would like to ask you for your advice.
Several times now, well, about 400 - 500 times starting in 1992, I have had to rush to a pen or a computer to write down a message in a sort of biblical style. They may be termed invocations, or even psalms. Eery like the edge of the horizon at dawn or dusk, and usually informative in a metaphorical or aphoristic way.
Then I just carry on, go back to bed, proceed with other work, etc, and forget the whole event, until I discover the “poem”, clean up the English, and file it.
Is there someone I should talk to about this?
Thanks.
Saphien
Thank you for your interesting comments. I have a little problem and would like to ask you for your advice.
Several times now, well, about 400 - 500 times starting in 1992, I have had to rush to a pen or a computer to write down a message in a sort of biblical style. They may be termed invocations, or even psalms. Eery like the edge of the horizon at dawn or dusk, and usually informative in a metaphorical or aphoristic way.
Then I just carry on, go back to bed, proceed with other work, etc, and forget the whole event, until I discover the “poem”, clean up the English, and file it.
Is there someone I should talk to about this?
Thanks.
Saphien
C
CHRIS_DICKSON
Guest
We all do well to have a spiritual advisor. This is not always possible, for like St. Teresa of Avila, she received advice for many years from priests who did not fully comprehend what she was going through. It wasn’t until she found a priest who was atuned to the mystical that she began to grow spiritually.
If you happen to have a Carmelite Monestary near by it would be helpful. I know that at one point I was personally seeking a spiritual advisor and finally found Fr. John Catoir available to take my concerns to. Eventually, I found a local diocesan priest who must have stayed awake in those classes at St. Meinrad and he helped me grow immeasurably in the Lord.
May I suggest running out to the library and picking up a copy of “The Interior Castle” by St. Teresa of Avila? I think you would love it!
U
uther
Guest
I think what I would do in that case is to assemble all of them into one volume and first go through all of the material myself to see if there is anything of a pattern, a teaching, a philosophy, a message, or whatever in the entire package.
If I could determine something recognizable as a thought process or pattern I would try to assemble that separately, in plain English to be able to evaluate it. That would mean standing it up beside known truth of Revelation. I would be very critical, just like the Catholic mystics who have been canonized. Assume nothing until it is clear what it is, before trying to determine its origin.
Having done that, if it is still ambiguous, or even if it is clearly not compatible with Church teaching, or on the other hand if it is definitely in line with Church teaching, the next step I would take is to research locally who, within the Church hierarchy, might have the kind of education and training to credibly assess this. Truthfully, that person might be hard to find. Preferably this would be a priest.
That is the approach I would take. But as to specifically who I would want to talk to in my own diocese, the only one I can think of is my Bishop. Beyond that, a priest that immediately comes to mind is someone like Father Mitch Pacwa of EWTN although he might be hard to reach. However, if this has been happening since 1992 it might be well worth the wait.
I am sure there are others as well, and maybe even organizations that specialize in similar phenomena. I am assuming you are Catholic, and on that assumption I suggest trying to contact as orthodox a group as possible, if you go that route.
I wish you well in whatever you do about this. Definitely prayer is the primary and first resort and always invoking the name of Jesus Christ.
What is your gut feeling or sense of what this is? You mention it as a smal problem. Are you worried about this? I confess I am intrigued and sorry I couldn’t be of more help. One of the staff apologists here might also be able to direct you.
G
guanophore
Guest
Only if it is interfering with your spiritual growth, in some way. Are you spending a comparable time in prayer, and reading scripture?
C
CHRIS_DICKSON
Guest
Saphien-
I just happened to remember something. A couple years ago I interviewed John Debney on my radio talk show on the Saturday before Ash Wednesday. John wrote the music for Mel Gibson’s “Passion” and during that interview I played the music over the air to audiences for the first time in the world.
During that interview I asked John what his favorite song was. He told me that it was when Mary came to Jesus while he was carrying the cross, and the scene switches back to Jesus as a child, falling and skinning up his knee and Mary running to his aid.
John couldn’t find the song for this scene. He slaved and slaved, but nothing came to him. He was to the point of despair. He went to bed and remained in prayer until he fell asleep. He jumped up startled with the song in his head, ran to his studeo in the basement, composed the entire song, called Mel Gibson and had him over to the house playing it at 6:00 A.M. in the morning, with he, Mel and Blaise Noto all in tears.
The Holy Spirit wrote that song…
God bless!
T
thiekei
Guest
I have the charism of praying in tongues…
I remember one time when my father was broken-hearted because my older brother was planning on coming up but changed his mind.
All of a sudden, I remember my eyes were watering and my spirit was groaning and I ran and locked myself in my bedroom, collapsed on the floor on my knees, and began praying in tongues… I had no control… I was weeping and praying.
About the time I began to finish praying… my mom got a call from my brother and he decided that he was coming and to disregard the previous call.
The Holy Spirit used me as a vessel and as He desires, so I’m willing to move as He leads…
I remember one time when my father was broken-hearted because my older brother was planning on coming up but changed his mind.
All of a sudden, I remember my eyes were watering and my spirit was groaning and I ran and locked myself in my bedroom, collapsed on the floor on my knees, and began praying in tongues… I had no control… I was weeping and praying.
About the time I began to finish praying… my mom got a call from my brother and he decided that he was coming and to disregard the previous call.
The Holy Spirit used me as a vessel and as He desires, so I’m willing to move as He leads…
S
Saphien
Guest
“The Holy Spirit used me as a vessel and as He desires, so I’m willing to move as He leads…”
Keithie,
You are the first reply, and this message of yours, and your experience, is of infinite help. I have been so alone for 16 years writing down these “word attacks” or poems that suddenly appear and need to be written down, and it helps me to hear of someone who is exposed to the same realm, and knows the experience of being “a vessel” which I have felt, and that comes up in the writing as things like “Clean thy vessel to be ready” , and so on.
The vessel, it is now clear to me, is the vessel of communion, as well as the Holy Grail vessel.
It is the taking up in the reception.
It is always there for me, in a way, if I allow myself to go into that space, and sometimes I don’t have the choice; I have to drop everything and write.
You?
Thanks again.
saphien
Keithie,
You are the first reply, and this message of yours, and your experience, is of infinite help. I have been so alone for 16 years writing down these “word attacks” or poems that suddenly appear and need to be written down, and it helps me to hear of someone who is exposed to the same realm, and knows the experience of being “a vessel” which I have felt, and that comes up in the writing as things like “Clean thy vessel to be ready” , and so on.
The vessel, it is now clear to me, is the vessel of communion, as well as the Holy Grail vessel.
It is the taking up in the reception.
It is always there for me, in a way, if I allow myself to go into that space, and sometimes I don’t have the choice; I have to drop everything and write.
You?
Thanks again.
saphien
J
jcrichton
Guest
Did St. Francis mean that speaking in tongues is a requisite to demonstrate that we have the Holy Spirit?
of Christ," and not the “Sacred Head of Christ.”
I don’t follow this expression… could you expand on it?
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Bill Cherry!Y’know.This may sound pretty fantastic ya’ll,but,…
About 20 yrs ago,I met a guy who was suffering from severe headaches.He said that the doctor he went to couldn’t explain it and gave him some tylenols or something.
He claimed to be a Christian.So,in jest I put my hand on his shoulder and babbled “in tounges”(I hope that’s not a sin against the Holy Spirit).
He sneezed…
and out came a long thick strand of snot,which contained a very large mass of coagulated blood.
He said he felt much better.
I can’t make this stuff up.
Perhaps his faith made him whole.
I was just joking around.
…you may have been used by God to demonstrate that the Holy Spirit does not need man’s abilities to perform any miracle… remember how Caifas unwillingly prophesied that One Man would die for the Good of many?
Maran atha!
Angel
D
dan1el
Guest
It is a spontaneous spiritual reality; it cannot be induced; it is the Spirit of God’s movement. If you enlarge your perception of God and things that are praiseworthy, the Spirit will move upon you, but it isn’t necessary.Folks,
I really wish I had someone who knew more on this subject. Back when I was a teenager living at home I was sleeping on the couch. I was on the couch because of a headach that I had been batteling for a few weeks. Anyway a close member of the family was expecting a child and the child was born. Now I heard the father of the child speaking to my Dad as I was waking up from sleep. I was on the couch and they were standing in the door to the kitchen. I remember thinking to myself, God bless that baby, Oh God bless the little one I am so happy Jesus please bless this new life. I woke up and sat up on the couch and quickly stood up. What I wanted to say were those words I had thought of just seconds before (above). What came out was something completely different. I started making a series of sounds and noises that made my father and the friend crack up laughing at me. It was frusterating because what I wanted to say was just praise about blessing the baby and all of these other sounds came pouring out. It lasted about 30 seconds. 30 seconds of what i can only describe as my mouth knowing exactly what it was doing and my mind being in shock at what my mouth was doing. I was thinking prayers for the baby and my mouth was making nosies that I never heard before that or since. I KNOW now that I was speaking in tounges. I know because my mouth was so certain of the noise and movements needed to make those noises. I have seen online the folks that claim to speak in tounges but they aren’t doing what my mouth did that night. I have never done it since but would love to experience it again as I am older and wouldn’t be as alarmed. If anyone knows if it can happen again or how to make it come back again I would appreciate it.
In church, many times people are told to speak in tongues; this is incorrect, since when a person speaks in tongues, it is written that a person ought to have an interpretation whenever the gift of tongues is in operation, and no more than three at a time, and those three must speak in turn - nothing out of order. “If you’re all speaking in tongues and an unbeliever walks in or the untaught, will they not say that you are mad?”
And isn’t this exactly what the unbelievers and unlearned are saying today? This is what Paul wanted to prevent.
“…however, in church, I would prefer to speak five words with my understanding …” because these words are for edification. Speaking in the spirit, you edify yourself, but no one else, unless there is an interpretation for the tongues which you spoke.
Hope this clears it up a little bit for you.
God bless you, brother.
G
guanophore
Guest
Actually this is a common side effect of being freed of demonic oppression. It has happened so much over so long a time that the expression “God Bless You” has entered the vernacular in virtually every language upon sneezing.Y’know.This may sound pretty fantastic ya’ll,but,…
About 20 yrs ago,I met a guy who was suffering from severe headaches.He said that the doctor he went to couldn’t explain it and gave him some tylenols or something.
He claimed to be a Christian.So,in jest I put my hand on his shoulder and babbled “in tounges”(I hope that’s not a sin against the Holy Spirit).
He sneezed…
and out came a long thick strand of snot,which contained a very large mass of coagulated blood.
He said he felt much better.
I can’t make this stuff up.
Perhaps his faith made him whole.
I was just joking around.
I can’t make this stuff up either.
God can speak through the mouth of a donkey, so I am sure he can use your “horsing around” to perform healings.
J
jcrichton
Guest
In the Gospel of John (14-16) Jesus reveals the Coming of the Paraclete, so I doubt that any real Catholic would deny the Holy Spirit… what I, and many others, suggest is that He is not at our beg and call; He is not our Spirit-Friday, eager to wait on our every whim…
Maran atha!
Angel
G
guanophore
Guest
I agree. However, I think it is the other way around. It is the Father’s good pleasure to give us the Kingdom, and he has made His spirit to dwell in our hearts through faith. I think a more appropriate way to put it is that we must place ourselves at his every beck and call. Praying in the Spirit is the closest I have been able to come to the commandment to “pray unceasingly”. It is we who turn off the faucet, not He.
T
thiekei
Guest
It’s a gift… and it’s a gift that we who have it are to cherish.
Every Catholic/Christian has the Holy Spirit and has access to His Gifts/Charisms… but there are few who end up allowing Him to move instead of being boxed up and still move according to the Church’s teachings… Some people that receive these Charisms stray from the Church’s teachings and others box the Holy Spirit and refuse to let Him use them.
When we partake in the Holy Eucharist (although I cannot yet take it since I am not yet Catholic but I still go up for a blessing from the priest and since the priest acts “in persona Christi” it is as if Christ Himself is blessing me) we are drinking and eating the blood and body of Christ… Who Himself was One with the Holy Spirit… He was the Creator of those Gifts/Charisms…
We have access to those Gifts/Charisms 24/7… and sometimes we have to stir up the Gifts/Charisms within our own spirit by prayer and thanksgiving, especially when we are going through the dark night of the soul…
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, uther!
(…is that as in King Arthur?)
…I do not fully agree with you on two points:
- The early Church was still in its infancy and early development when the Epistles were written so much that was written was very Church (worship) specific; Jesus and the Apostles did not concern themselves with fundamental teachings–it was understood that Israel was the chosen people of God and they had the Law; the Apostles, as testefied by the Epistles, taught through the Written and Oral Traditions and they corrected the errors that arose; there was no doubt that Jesus was God and that He sent the Holy Spirit to the Church nor that all Gifts and Grace flows from the Holy Spirit (this includes the Gift of tongues).
- Hyperbole? This suggests that St. Paul was not being very honest (the dict’s def: extravagant exaggeration); by stating that St. Paul did not mean what he said you are derailing the meaning of the Holy Scriptures: i.e.: believers don’t realy have the power to do miraculous things, only good angels exist so Satan’s minions will not attempt to disuade us from the Truth; believers should walk away from complicated issues concerning their Faith; St. Paul is not as strong a Believer as he claims since he is bent on wowing the crowds with colorful language rather than use simple and honest expressions.
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi!
I used to write poetry some time ago… I would have a thought or an idea which I could not express… sometimes I would wake up at three or four in the morn and proceed to write down everything that was rushing to get out… some of my best compositions were born in such manner… at one time I thought that the “spirit” of some poet was being channeled through me… then I realized that there was a “spirit” coursing through me: the Holy Spirit!
We are given different Gifts; if we follow St. Paul’s admonishion we can tell if the Gift is coming from the Holy Spirit:
Wherefore, I give you to understand that no man, speaking by the Spirit of God, saith Anathema to Jesus. And no man can say The Lord Jesus, but by the Holy Ghost. (1 Corinthians 12:3)
…so if you are giving Glory to God with these revelations, don’t fight it!
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
We are in agreement since praying in the Spirit does not mean that we will speak in strange tongues or that are granted other Gifts. St. Paul states that the Holy Spirit prays for us as we are unable to do so in the Way that is pleasing to God:
26 Likewise, the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For, we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings, 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what the Spirit desireth: because he asketh for the saints according to God. (Romans 8:26-27)
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Keithie!
…I have but one simple correction: “was One” should be “is One.”
Maran atha!
Angel
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