T
thiekei
Guest
For me considering being a double major in English and Social Work… that was a blooper… especially to top it off that I’m converting to the Catholic faith… doh
Thanks for the correction though!
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Thanks for the correction though!
E
East_Anglican
Guest
I speak in tounges.
Tounges is a sign for the unbeliever.
If you already believe it is just jibberish.
Ref I Cor 12
Tounges is a sign for the unbeliever.
If you already believe it is just jibberish.
Ref I Cor 12
C
cazayoux
Guest
So let me ask … when you speak in tongues, is it around people who are believers or unbelievers?
michel
E
East_Anglican
Guest
It depends who is there.
C
cazayoux
Guest
The point of my question was to find out the circumstance you practice speaking in tongues.
As you stated, it is for the unbelievers.
Is your typical experience of speaking in tongues with a group that already believes?
If so, the purpose you stated for speaking in tongues doesn’t apply.
michel
B
BigRedpg51
Guest
Speaking in ‘tongues’ has absolutely nothing to do with who you are with. It is a direct correspondence between your spirit and the Holy Spirit. If it was meant for others to understand, then they would.
Prophesy tongues…now that’s quite different. When a genuine prophesy is given in ‘tongues’, then there must always be someone around to interpret it. Otherwise, the listeners would be justified in labeling it as ‘suspicious’ and possibly ‘not from God’.
I find myself sometimes drifting into speaking in ‘tongues’ when I’m preparing my breakfast in the morning, and I’m just fooling around talking to the dogs in the kitchen. When this happens, I stop IMMEDIATELY!
We have to be very careful not to abuse this wonderful and powerful gift of the Holy Spirit.
Prophesy tongues…now that’s quite different. When a genuine prophesy is given in ‘tongues’, then there must always be someone around to interpret it. Otherwise, the listeners would be justified in labeling it as ‘suspicious’ and possibly ‘not from God’.
I find myself sometimes drifting into speaking in ‘tongues’ when I’m preparing my breakfast in the morning, and I’m just fooling around talking to the dogs in the kitchen. When this happens, I stop IMMEDIATELY!
We have to be very careful not to abuse this wonderful and powerful gift of the Holy Spirit.
M
mjperri88
Guest
Hello,
I think that this is a really interesting topic and discussion that is going on here, but until some catechesis is studied and we learn what the Church teaches; this essentially shows the problem that many other Christian Churches have in lacking an authoritative Church…this is why we don’t try and translate the scripture on our own. Look up the Church teachings from a reliable source.
May God Bless you and keep you
I think that this is a really interesting topic and discussion that is going on here, but until some catechesis is studied and we learn what the Church teaches; this essentially shows the problem that many other Christian Churches have in lacking an authoritative Church…this is why we don’t try and translate the scripture on our own. Look up the Church teachings from a reliable source.
May God Bless you and keep you
V
Viola
Guest
V
Viola
Guest
Tongues is the believers private prayer language. The Holy Spirit praying through the believer. Sometimes we don’t know how to pray about a person or situation, however the Spirit knows. There is a second charism called the Gift of Tongues that is a manifestation in a group meeting and should have interpretation. This is for the unbeliever! So, there is the private prayer language and then the Gift of Tongues. It is not gibberish, but either praise and worship or intercession. I experience both and pray often in tongues.It increases my faith!
U
uther
Guest
Absolutely, I am suggesting that St. Paul was using exaggeration for effect, to drive home a particular point. Preachers and speakers do the same thing all the time. It says nothing about truthfulness. It is only if one uses a “literalist” approach to Scripture, not a “literal” one, that one might be inclined to the bizarre conclusion that tongues is the language of angels.
Take a look once more of the context in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3. St. Paul is beginning his discourse on the absolute necessity of Love. In verse 13, he tells us that of faith, hope and love, love is the greatest. His primary point is not here to be discussing the exact nature of tongues. He is using extremes. I think the Contemporary English Version of the Bible, while wanting sometimes in accuracy, captures this quite well in Verse 1;
“What if I could speak all languages of humans and of angels? If I did not love others, I would be nothing more than a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.”
In verse 2 he says, to paraphrase, *what if I could prophecy, and could know everything there is to know, if I had the kind of faith that could move a mountain *(this suggests, incidentally, that he did not think that he did have that kind of faith)but if I don’t have love, I am nothing.
Again in verse 3; if I gave away everything I own and deliberately offer myself up to be burned, without love I gain nothing
He is using extremes to point out that nothing is more important or trumps Love. That is the same construct he used, as I pointed out, in Galations 1:8. Even if an angel came down from heaven and preached to you a different gospel, let him be anathema.
My own Bishop used this technique on our parish feast-day when celebrating Mass, because we had recently seen a renegade priest lead a renegade congregation out of the Church. He said that even if he (our Bishop) were to preach or teach anything that contradicted the Bishop of Rome, do not accept it. Was he expecting to do that any time soon? Of course not. It is a rhetorical construction for effect.
Does the Holy Spirit work miracles through ordinary Christians? Absolutely. Some of the greatest miracles we can miss sometimes if we are too focused on manifestations. The greatest miracle of all occurs at every Mass, conducted by any ordinary Catholic priest. The angels are looking on in awe at the transubstantiation occurring at the hands of a humble human being. We see this in the Apocalypse of John.
When I say walk away, I mean literally walk away from a chaotic meeting. We know that not everyone is given the gift of discernment, and when there are many manifestations going on at the same time, it would tend to tax even the gifted, unless there was a dominant spirit. With no attempt at clear interpretation, which is what many here have advocated, there is no way to know from the outside whether someone else who is speaking in tongues, or praying out loud in tongues(the same thing) is doing so from the Holy Spirit. We can make no assumptions individually, but we know from St. Paul that chaos is not of God. That is easy to see, whether we have the gift of discernment or not. So it is indeed a very practical rule of thumb. It is not a question of being a complicated issue. If one or many refuse to interpret what they are saying in a meeting, are we to just assume it is of the Holy Spirit? That is what some are asking us to do.
Ectatic speech (glossolalia) has been reported from 1100 B.C. in Egypt, reported by Plato (429-347 B.C.), Virgil (70-19 B.C.) and normally in the context of religious or cult rituals, such as the Greek Osiris Cult. In our own era, Mormons have been known to speak in tongues, and the phenomenon occurs in non-Christian religions around the world. If we want to study it, by all means. But for the average Christian, there is no need to answer the question of this thread, if they do not wish to or if they cannot. If the phenomenon in Catholic meetings of any sort is obedient to St. Paul’s rules of order it will be obvious, and if it is chaotic, that also will be obvious.
The entire point of St. Paul’s rules of order, if followed, is that we don’t have to make any judgments about any gift. It will be obvious.
L
Lepanto
Guest
Believer of what?
I believe in God–Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I live my life to the best of my ability in accord with the Church’s teachings, and I partake in her sacramental system. I read scripture, I engage in public and private devotions, and I do good works…yet I’ve never even once come near to speaking in tongues. Does that make me a non-believer?
It sounds to me that the casualness with which some (not necessarily you, Viola) claim to be able to speak in tongues is ludicrous, if not downright blasphemous. It’s as if they are claiming a special inside connection to God, or like they are members of a special and exclusive club that not all are invited to. This special knowledge that some claim is pure Gnosticism, no doubt propagated by subtle undercurrents of Pentecostalism and New Age. Let’s face it: some people just have a need to feel special.
I would advise caution – the Holy Spirit is not a plaything to be treated casually. Approach with fear, awe, and trembling.
U
uther
Guest
I would like to see the origin of this teaching. I know it has been around for some time in charismatic circles but I have yet to see it in Scripture or in the teachings of the Church.
The question I would ask, based on your distinction, is this;
Am I able to hear it?
You say that if it were meant for others to understand, then they would. Fair enough. But you don’t say whether it was meant for others to hear. I would submit to you that St. Paul’s point in 1 Corinthians 14 is that a private prayer tongue, which you seem to be describing, is exactly that. Private. And unless you have an interpreter, yourself or some other, then it should be kept private.
As I said in another post, there is only one reason for someone to pray loud enough for others to hear. It is precisely so that others can hear. So when you are in a group setting, if you are speaking or praying, as you wish to call it, when it is audible for all, it is therefore meant for all, but without interpretation they cannot understand, and as you point out, can be rightly suspicious. However, if this prayer in tongues were truly private, and there is no hardship in not vocalizing it since it is a private prayer language, there is obviously no need to interpret. And that is a large part of what St. Paul is saying.
Think of it this way. If I am in a meeting and hear you, how am I to know which of the two categories, as you list them, your utterance falls into? In the first case it is none of my business, but in the second case it is definitely my business, by your own description. How am I to know?
Here’s how I should know, according to St. Paul. If I can hear you at all in tongues, I should be hearing an interpreter as well. Period. And there should be no more than you and a couple of others, one at a time, in orderly fashion. Anything else is to be kept private.
You mentioned praying at home in tongues. That is a wonderful way to pray. I would encourage it, as I would encourage anyone with the gift of tongues prayer. And I am sure they don’t need my encouragement. I heard a call-in show one day not long ago when a woman was asking if it was OK to pray in tongues at home. I would have shouted through the radio if I could have, Yes! Yes! That is exactly what you should be doing with that gift. It is not meant for others, but for you. Why you? Who knows why other than the Holy Spirit?
J
jcrichton
Guest
Don’t worry, we all get caught up some of the times–I picked it up because I was writing on the Trinity on another site and the issue of God’s Unity came up…
Welcome Home!
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, mjperri!
The Church is not against Charisms; she teaches that the Holy Sprit is willing and able to grant Believers the various Gifts, which includes speaking in tongues.
…what this thread demonstrates is that there are both believers and disblievers and Catholics and non-Catholics who claim to have the Gift of tongues; conversely, there are the doubters, as I, that do not believe that every single person is being truthful in their display/claim of speaking in tongues…
There is no doubt as to the Authority of the Church nor her position regarding the Charisms.
Maran atha!
Angel
L
Lepanto
Guest
Agreed. I don’t doubt the Church at all.
Rather, I doubt 99.9999% of the people who claim to have the “gift of tongues,” just as I doubt 99.9999% who claim to have witnessed a Marian apparition.
The burden of proof is on the claimants.
J
jcrichton
Guest
The problem with your interpretation is that it assumes that St. Paul was not aware of the language of the angels (the means used to communicate); how can we, as far removed as we are, form such definite opinion about something we know nothing about? You are also contradicting St. Paul as he claims that he is not attempting to persuade them with man’s wisdom (1 Cor 2:4); could the same man who claims to come to them with no trickery resort to explosive and embellished language?
…through this reasoning then St. Paul is claiming not to be able to speak the langue of humans!
You seem to forget that Christ commanded His disciples to be humble; if Jesus said they can do something, why do you think that any of the Apostles would doubt that they could do it?
Did you not noticed how St. John did not openly revealed that he was the disciple that Jesus loved most? Ditto St. Paul when he speaks of that man which was taken into Heaven?
…the problem is that that was a reality of some pagan rituals (death as a release or offering to the gods); St. Paul is using a language familiar to his audience; he is not boasting about his powers or doubting what he is able to accomplish in the Lord!
I think that you are missing the point–could he one day do it? It is possible. Is it likely that he would do it? Though I know not the man, I would say not probable, since he is placing the Church and his parish above himself (ego).
I better understand this part of you position and I agree with you; chaos tends to dispute God’s Presence.
This goes to the posts that suggest that not all chants emante from the Holy Spirit–unless you are suggesting that the Holy Spirit is indiscrimate in granting His Gifts and Grace?
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
…and because neither is a dogma of Faith you are able to do so without hindering your spritual state/growth.
The Church in her wisdom allows for all Believers to come to God as He choses them–some will no doubt see visions, some will prophesy, some will have other Gifts and enjoy other form of Grace… the Church will not hinder Christ’s Body by forcing or limiting and Charism. The apparitions, as the miracles, are treated in the same way–it may take years and thousands of research and study hours for the Church to deem any of them authentic.
Yet, even when she does so, she stipulates that our Salvation does not depend upon our acceptence of any specific apparition.
Maran atha!
Angel
A
antonabe
Guest
Jesus Christ said that if you have faith as small as a mustard seed you can move mountains so 0.1 % will be adequate.The Marian apparitions though not part of this thread,have been investigated by the Church and some of them have been approved and I firmly believe in these,particularly,Lourdes,Fatima etc.Are we clear in our minds what speaking of tongues actually is.Certainly the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God is capable of Spritual Resurrection in people who lack faith and can also enable persons to do and sometimes say things which cannot be explained in a rational way.The composition of the Song in The Passion by Denby as mentioned in this thread is a case in point.However when people come out with sounds which appear to be uninteligible or gibberish and if this language cannot be understood by those around him I cannot imagine that he has the gift of tongues. The gift of tongues is a gift to communicate with a wide spectrum of people of different languages,and it is also the ability to establish a line of communication with non believers and with power of the holy spirit instil in them Faith in the teachings of Jesus Christ.
S
Saphien
Guest
What if speaking in Biblical English comes in the same way as speaking in tongues, with a few foreign words thrown it, to boot?
What do you do when it has all been written down 400 times and is really quite beautiful?
Where do you go with this literature?
I am a much more technical writer, interview alot, and am used to listening. But this voice over the last 16 years comes in when I am writing something else, makes me wake up and write down and “amen and so to bed”. Comforts me. Bawls me out. Has written a confirmation message, a baptism message, a wedding message, a passage message. And many a message on saving the soil and soul, at the same time, as well as on the nature of happiness and how to cultivate it.
Where shall I go with this?
Thank you so much.
Saphien (also a drop down)
What do you do when it has all been written down 400 times and is really quite beautiful?
Where do you go with this literature?
I am a much more technical writer, interview alot, and am used to listening. But this voice over the last 16 years comes in when I am writing something else, makes me wake up and write down and “amen and so to bed”. Comforts me. Bawls me out. Has written a confirmation message, a baptism message, a wedding message, a passage message. And many a message on saving the soil and soul, at the same time, as well as on the nature of happiness and how to cultivate it.
Where shall I go with this?
Thank you so much.
Saphien (also a drop down)
A
antonabe
Guest
If a inner voice is speaking to you and gives these beautiful massages wich convey meaning to your life you are indeed blessed by the Holy Spirit
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