Speaking in tongues: genuine charism or silly gibberish?

[guanophore]

I would like to see the origin of this teaching.  I know it has been around for some time in charismatic circles but I have yet to see it in Scripture or in the teachings of the Church.

I find it curious that you do not see this in Scripture…

You mentioned praying at home in tongues. That is a wonderful way to pray. I would encourage it, as I would encourage anyone with the gift of tongues prayer. And I am sure they don’t need my encouragement. I heard a call-in show one day not long ago when a woman was asking if it was OK to pray in tongues at home. I would have shouted through the radio if I could have, Yes! Yes! That is exactly what you should be doing with that gift. It is not meant for others, but for you. Why you? Who knows why other than the Holy Spirit?

I think the Apostle is quite clear that one who is given this gift is in need of edification in himself.

1 Cor 14:2-5
2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3 On the other hand, he who prophesies speaks to men for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.** 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself,** but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless some one interprets, so that the church may be edified.

It is also clear from the context of the passage that the Corinthians are quite weak in their faith, disorganized, and prone to sin and wandering.

 

[guanophore]

What if speaking in Biblical English comes in the same way as speaking in tongues, with a few foreign words thrown it, to boot?

What do you do when it has all been written down 400 times and is really quite beautiful?

Where do you go with this literature?

I am a much more technical writer, interview alot, and am used to listening. But this voice over the last 16 years comes in when I am writing something else, makes me wake up and write down and “amen and so to bed”. Comforts me. Bawls me out. Has written a confirmation message, a baptism message, a wedding message, a passage message. And many a message on saving the soil and soul, at the same time, as well as on the nature of happiness and how to cultivate it.

Where shall I go with this?

Thank you so much.

Saphien (also a drop down)

This is the gift of the prophetic word described in Corinthians. Prophesy is not, as is commonly thought, about telling the future. It is God speaking the truth into the present. Eternity breaks into finity (excersize this gift, as you appear to be doing) and consecrate yourself to God in using it. Be guided by I Cor. 13.

 

[guanophore]

Isn’t this in contradition of the “Church”? Assuming the “speaking in”, and “interpretation of” was a genuine action of the Holy Spirit working through these people, then it follows that the Holy Spirit was endorsing this communuities “new church family” as the Church of Christ. Which is and can only be, the Catholic Church.

No, the Catholic Church is clear that the HS works through these ecclesiastical communities to draw people closer to God.

 

[East_Anglican]

Recently I was praying with somebody who is not yet a Christian and this demon started manifesting. I carried on praying and then suddenly Streight from my guts I started praying in tounges… The thing stoped manifesting instantly and the person i was praying for asked me what it meant and stuff.

A genuine testimony with no reply. Theological bickering is obviously more interesting.

Good bye!

 

[guanophore]

A genuine testimony with no reply. Theological bickering is obviously more interesting.

Good bye!

I did think about a reply, but I thought it was outside the topic of the thread. For the record, I will say that this is an authentic use of the gift of tongues.

 

[Lepanto]

Montanus was originally a priest of the of the oriental ecstatic cult of Cybele, a fertility goddess, but he converted to Christianity. Shortly after his conversion circa 172 AD, he entered into an ecstatic state and began prophesying in the region of Phrygia, now in central Turkey, proclaiming that he was the embodiment of the Holy Spirit.

He soon became the leader of a group of similar ecstatics who exhibited not only enraptured seizures but also speaking in strange tongues.

Montanus went on to become the instigator and namesake of the great heresy of Montanism.

newadvent.org/cathen/10521a.htm

So a word for those of you who believe that you are invoking the Holy Spirit: proceed with caution!

 

[tommiatkins]

A very heightened emotional state, seen in survivors of RTA’s and shellshocked soldiers.

As a language, its silly gibberish. As a phenomenon, its perfectly understandable.

 

[guanophore]

Montanus was originally a priest of the of the oriental ecstatic cult of Cybele, a fertility goddess, but he converted to Christianity. Shortly after his conversion circa 172 AD, he entered into an ecstatic state and began prophesying in the region of Phrygia, now in central Turkey, proclaiming that he was the embodiment of the Holy Spirit.

He soon became the leader of a group of similar ecstatics who exhibited not only enraptured seizures but also speaking in strange tongues.

Montanus went on to become the instigator and namesake of the great heresy of Montanism.

newadvent.org/cathen/10521a.htm

So a word for those of you who believe that you are invoking the Holy Spirit: proceed with caution!

Well said. Scripture is clear that the HS is not the only source of ecstatic experience.

 

[antonabe]

Well said. Scripture is clear that the HS is not the only source of ecstatic experience.

Ecstasy could be brought about by Demonic forces as well.Holy Spirit is a person of the Holy Trinity and it is my humble opinion that there is no substitute for the Holy Spirit for truly Spiritual experiences.However I agree that Ecstasy can be influenced by other forces though these may not be of a Divine Nature:thumbsup:

 

[HealedOne]

Actually I was talking with the Youth Minister I volunteer with about this the other day. In my opinion (and I’m by no means a biblical scholar, canon lawyer, or a great mystic) it’s real but it can have the potential for abuse by those who are not really speaking in tounges. I don’t think I’ve ever really experienced it but I think I have been in the presence of those who have. One charismatic principle that I’d like to learn more about is the “Baptism of the Spirit”. I thought this happens when you are actually baptized but I think when many Catholic Charismatics refer to this…it means something else. Any thoughts?

God Bless

 

[savedsinner]

Actually I was talking with the Youth Minister I volunteer with about this the other day. In my opinion (and I’m by no means a biblical scholar, canon lawyer, or a great mystic) it’s real but it can have the potential for abuse by those who are not really speaking in tongues. I don’t think I’ve ever really experienced it but I think I have been in the presence of those who have. One charismatic principle that I’d like to learn more about is the “Baptism of the Spirit”. I thought this happens when you are actually baptized but I think when many Catholic Charismatics refer to this…it means something else. Any thoughts?

God Bless

I would assume that “Baptism of the Spirit” refers to confirmation.

Confirmation in the Bible

We read in the Acts of the Apostles (8:14-17) that after the Samaritan converts had been baptized by Philip the deacon, the Apostles “sent unto them Peter and John, who, when they were come, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost; for he was not yet come upon any of them, but they were only baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus; then they laid their hands upon them, and they received the Holy Ghost”.

Again (19:1-6): St. Paul “came to Ephesus, and found certain disciples; and he said to them: Have you received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? But they said to him: We have not so much as heard whether there be a Holy Ghost. And he said: In what then were you baptized? Who said: In John’s baptism. Then Paul said: John baptized the people with the baptism of penance . . . Having heard these things, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had imposed his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied”.

From these two passages we learn that in the earliest ages of the Church there was a rite, distinct from baptism, in which the Holy Ghost was conferred by the imposition of hands (dia tes epitheseos ton cheiron ton Apostolon), and that the power to perform this ceremony was not implied in the power to baptize.

 

[guanophore]

Actually I was talking with the Youth Minister I volunteer with about this the other day. In my opinion (and I’m by no means a biblical scholar, canon lawyer, or a great mystic) it’s real but it can have the potential for abuse by those who are not really speaking in tounges. I don’t think I’ve ever really experienced it but I think I have been in the presence of those who have. One charismatic principle that I’d like to learn more about is the “Baptism of the Spirit”. I thought this happens when you are actually baptized but I think when many Catholic Charismatics refer to this…it means something else. Any thoughts?

God Bless

You are correct, this happens at water baptism. some modern fundamentalists sects, though, in an effort to separate themselves form the Catholic faith, deny that baptism of the HS has anything to do with water at all. They separate it from the Baptism of Jesus, and call the use of water “works based salvation”.

 

[fewnotmany]

(fundamentalists sects) separate (water) from the Baptism of Jesus, and call the use of water “works based salvation”.

If I understand you correctly, if one thinks getting dipped in water is all there is to being christian, then that is salvation by works?

 

[guanophore]

If I understand you correctly, if one thinks getting dipped in water is all there is to being christian, then that is salvation by works?

This is off topic here, so if you want to discuss it we should take it to another thread. Baptism is not “getting dipped in water”, and there is no such thing as "salvation by works ".

My point is that separating the reading of scripture from the sacred tradition that produced it creates all kinds of misleadings such as these.

The Apostles taught that the charism of tongues was to be used and cherished, it is a gift of God, and it is written about in the NT. We are to receive this teaching, and be formed by it, not find ways to invalidate it.

 

[Athanasiy]

For me its difficult to believe that ‘ the speaking in tongues practice ‘ is the genuine charism .
I personally a little bit bewildered at the behavior of the followers who practice this ecstatic experience.
The Divine Service in the Catholic Cathedral is the Divine Service.
It’s the service in the state of peace and concentration on God’s presence , but in the state of peace , and not in the state of confusion .
And you hear the sermons , which are for every body , and which are practical and with understanding of reality.
I can not imagine at the Catholic Cathedral the jargons or cant expressions which amuse the mood of young people , I can not imagine the practice of holy laughter , rolling across the floor , excessive crying or weeping.
Just because of the literal approach to the Bible , we must follow the examples of Daniel who fell to the ground or Saul when he was on the road to Damasus .

Also , I personally sure that the God’s work in the heart of the Christrian is more about regeneration and rebirth of the conscience , by the rebirth of the conscience the rebirth of the Spirit can be proved.
And that’s a most important aspect in the walking and living by the Spirit.

 

[guanophore]

For me its difficult to believe that ‘ the speaking in tongues practice ‘ is the genuine charism .
I personally a little bit bewildered at the behavior of the followers who practice this ecstatic experience.
The Divine Service in the Catholic Cathedral is the Divine Service.
It’s the service in the state of peace and concentration on God’s presence , but in the state of peace , and not in the state of confusion .
And you hear the sermons , which are for every body , and which are practical and with understanding of reality.

One must be mindful that the resurgence of this activity did not occur during Divine Liturgy,but during prayer groups, and among many persons far removed from the appropriate form of worship. In the late sixties, when the Charismatic Renewal began sweeping through the Latin Rite in America, much of the dignity of the Mass had been corrupted by “the spirit of vatican 2”. Even today, though reforms are underway, it is still very hard to find Jesus in some parishes. Many parts of the Liturgy have dropped out, including the homily, there have been abuses of the rubrics for the Mass etc. My point is that some people can go to a Mass and not experience the things about which you are speaking.

I can not imagine at the Catholic Cathedral the jargons or cant expressions which amuse the mood of young people , I can not imagine the practice of holy laughter , rolling across the floor , excessive crying or weeping.
Just because of the literal approach to the Bible , we must follow the examples of Daniel who fell to the ground or Saul when he was on the road to Damasus .

Oh, I think we CAN imagine it, which is why we find it so appalling!

Also , I personally sure that the God’s work in the heart of the Christrian is more about regeneration and rebirth of the conscience , by the rebirth of the conscience the rebirth of the Spirit can be proved.
And that’s a most important aspect in the walking and living by the Spirit.

Yes, and as the Apostle wrote, “earnestly desire the higher gifts”, faith, hope and love.

 

[milenyo]

catholiccharismatic.us/ccc/articles/John_Paul/John_Paul_001.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_Catholicism#External_links

Three popes encourages this but also gives caution… Pls Refer to the above links…

I’ve been a struggling Catholic ever since but with the help of the Charismatic Movement that I’m in I now am fighting better and my parents are commenting on my much improved behaviour.

The caution is for those who are practicing it OUT OF HAND…
We should correct these people…

The “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” is not a substitute to any sacrament specially Baptism of the infant and Confirmation…
It is a common term used in an activity where the participants are ENCOURAGED no required to ASK for this gift… “Ask and you shall receive”… But never the less we are encouraged to ask for any gift we desire to have and more over ask for a gift we believe God wants us to have…

“Kay Kristo Buong Buhay Habambuhay!!!”
-For Christ, the Whole life, for Life! ( Was I able to translate this well?) BTW thats Filipino language…

 

[guanophore]

catholiccharismatic.us/ccc/articles/John_Paul/John_Paul_001.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_Catholicism#External_links

Three popes encourages this but also gives caution… Pls Refer to the above links…

I’ve been a struggling Catholic ever since but with the help of the Charismatic Movement that I’m in I now am fighting better and my parents are commenting on my much improved behaviour.

The caution is for those who are practicing it OUT OF HAND…
We should correct these people…

The “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” is not a substitute to any sacrament specially Baptism of the infant and Confirmation…
It is a common term used in an activity where the participants are ENCOURAGED no required to ASK for this gift… “Ask and you shall receive”… But never the less we are encouraged to ask for any gift we desire to have and more over ask for a gift we believe God wants us to have…

“Kay Kristo Buong Buhay Habambuhay!!!”
-For Christ, the Whole life, for Life! ( Was I able to translate this well?) BTW thats Filipino language…

Good for you for allowing the Spirit to bring the fruits of the Spirit into your daily life.

Welcome to CAF. I hope that you learn a lot about your faith here.

 

[fewnotmany]

According to my page count, this thread is on page 32. So please excuse me stating something that has already been pointed out.

IMHO, the answer to such questions posed in the OP can best be deciphered by defining the words. The English word ‘tongues’ in the bible comes from the greek word glossa; we get our word glossary from it. A glossary is a section of a book that defines foreign words. The miracle of ‘speaking in tongues’ is not dancing around in circles and jabbering nonsense, it is the miracle that people from different regions of the mediterranean during Paul’s time could even understand one another – through the Holy Spirit.

It has an expiration date. It is dead.

What people describe as talking in tongues today is nothing more than one’s vain imagination.

If this thread had a poll, my vote would be for ‘silly gibberish’.

 

[guanophore]

According to my page count, this thread is on page 32. So please excuse me stating something that has already been pointed out.

IMHO, the answer to such questions posed in the OP can best be deciphered by defining the words. The English word ‘tongues’ in the bible comes from the greek word glossa; we get our word glossary from it. A glossary is a section of a book that defines foreign words. The miracle of ‘speaking in tongues’ is not dancing around in circles and jabbering nonsense, it is the miracle that people from different regions of the mediterranean during Paul’s time could even understand one another – through the Holy Spirit.

This is certainly one of the variety of gifts.

It has an expiration date. It is dead.

Not. :dts:

What people describe as talking in tongues today is nothing more than one’s vain imagination.

I think this is true for some people, but the situation is even worse in other cases.

If this thread had a poll, my vote would be for ‘silly gibberish’.

Fortunately the eternal truth of God is not dependent upon the “vote” of any of us.