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fewnotmany
Guest
ok . . . . I’ll bite . . . . . please explain?
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BSHoop96
Guest
This is just downright weird. And this last part I highlighted… I would have thought you were at a fundamentalist revival except that you mentioned Mass.This is always an interesting topic.
My first and only experience and most likely my last occurred during a large CCR event with over 10,000 attendees. The first time I heard the speaking in tongues was during one of the featured talks, and I at first thought everyone was doing a Gregorian chant. The Priest with whom I attended this CCR event thought the same thing.
During Mass that night, in all their glory, all 10,000 (give or take a few hundred) on cue would start and stop at the same time. Like a well oiled machine. Yes, the room buzzed with energy, but why wouldn’t it with that many people making all kinds of sounds and noise. I surely didn’t know what to doexcept maybe start singing twinkle twinkle little star or recite my a b c’s. My point being, my impression of speaking in tongues was a spontaneous reaction in prayer not a synchronized starting and stopping of that many people.
And when someone spoke in tongues, as stated in a couple of earlier posts to lend authenticity, someone would be able to interpret what was being said.
I am not trying to offend anyone, but I will say I was highly offended when I was told I was not “Baptized in the Spirit” because I DIDN’T speak in tongues at this event
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Lepanto
Guest
This is precisely my point. The Catholic Charismatic Movement is the 1960’s era product of the merging of ascendant Pentecostalism with post-conciliar confusion.
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guanophore
Guest
It was your baseless and ridiculous assertion, I think you should be the one to explain it! You tell me! Where in scripture or Church teaching anywhere does it say that the gift is revoked?
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fewnotmany
Guest
1 Cor 13:8
Love (agape) never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
9
For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10
but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
pass away (Katargeo) which means - to cease, to expire.
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savedsinner
Guest
There was a Priest that spoke in tongues.
The sound was kind of a “dot dot dit dot dat” .
Sounds kind of funny to me.
Except that they found that it was a language of a very small tribe in the center of Africa.
He did not know the language.
Sound’s like he got an exception of that expiration date.
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guanophore
Guest
Well, of course! But Jesus has not come back to pick us up yet, so all of the gifts of the Spirit, given to the Church to make her grow and flourish, will continue until the end of this age. In the age to come, they will not be needed anymore, since when we see HIm, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He really is.
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antonabe
Guest
I agree that it is not vital to speak in tongues to communicate with God.As Jesus said when you pray be simple becsuse almighty God knows your needs and what is good for you.The one thing that must be impressed upon here is that by not speaking in tongues you are not lesser mortals or a lower grade of Catholic.We must communicate with God in prayer in the language we know best.I do not have the supposed gift of speaking in tongues myself but that has not interupted in any way the line of communication with the Holy Trinity.
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BSHoop96
Guest
Well, now you’re just tryin’ to confuse people with the facts.
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fewnotmany
Guest
IMHO, you are mistaken the word ‘perfect’ for something other than the sense that Paul is using the word for perfect; which is the greek word Teleios (tel’-i-os). Teleios can also mean mature.
Keeping in the context of Paul’s letter, when you read the very next verse, mature is a better translation then perfect.
1Co 13:11 - When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
As stated earlier, Speaking in tongues had an expiration date. It is dead.
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guanophore
Guest
Somebody better tell the Pope!
Anyhow, on what basis do you determine that the Church has reached “maturity”?
How do you measure the “maturity” of the individuals who are to be built up by this gift?
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Chris_Patterson
Guest
C
Chris_Patterson
Guest
(Continuation from the prior posting)
As to prophecy, there is no new “public revelation,” only “private revelation” which will help us live out the deposit of faith more fully in any period of history. Below I quote paragraphs 66 and 67 of the CCC dealing with this issue.
*66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.
67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.
Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.*
I want to discuss two more issues. First is the mistaken belief that “tongues” is only a gift of speaking a different human language, and that the gift was to be used for evangelism. I can understand why some believe this. At Pentecost, Scripture states, *“Then how does each of us hear them in his own native language?” * (Acts 2:8). And, surely a bunch of people came to Christ after this miracle. However, it is not quite clear whether the miracle was that the tongue-speakers were speaking in different languages, or that the different hearers were simply hearing the same words spoken, yet all hearing in their native languages. I would submit that the latter makes more sense, simply because if 200 people were speaking in 14+ different languages, I think it would be hard for anyone to understand what anyone was saying.
Further, although the gift of tongues is mentioned later in Scripture, it is not mentioned as a method of speaking in another language for evangelism, although I have heard modern day stories of such happening). Instead, Paul says, “For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens: he utters mysteries in spirit.”* I Cor 14:2*
Further, Paul says, “Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up,…”* 1 Cor 14:4*
Finally, I have read in this thread that this type of personal use of tongues is self-focused and sort of selfish. Actually, it is quite the opposite, if love is the motivation (as 1 Corinthians 13 says it should be.) I want and need to build myself up, so I can go out and serve all the more. It is no more self-centered for someone to build himself up spiritually by speaking in tongues than it would be for a basketball player to stay after practice to shoot 50 extra free thows. That extra shooting will help his personal free throw percentage, but it will also help the team. Likewise, “whoever speaks in tongues builds himself up” so that he can help the team - the Church!
Sure, let’s look out for counterfits, and let’s listen to the magisterial warnings about improper uses of the gifts. Paul’s own reprimands to the Corinthians were levied in part because they were using those gifts improperly and in an immature fashion. And, Catholic Charismatics and Tongue-speakers, let’s own up to times when we have been immature, pushy, offensive, proud, overzealous, or simply ineffective in explaining where we are coming from.
At the same time, let us be open to magisterial encouragement of movements such as the Catholic Charismatic Renewal – a movement that includes the speaking in tongues, and a movement encouraged and endorsed by the past three Popes.
I will again refer you to a helpful link relating to some of this stuff, and some thoughts by the last three Popes:
youtube.com/watch?v=J-QDOcDGDWA
Have a geat evening, everyone!
In His love,
Chrispy
As to prophecy, there is no new “public revelation,” only “private revelation” which will help us live out the deposit of faith more fully in any period of history. Below I quote paragraphs 66 and 67 of the CCC dealing with this issue.
*66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.
67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.
Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.*
I want to discuss two more issues. First is the mistaken belief that “tongues” is only a gift of speaking a different human language, and that the gift was to be used for evangelism. I can understand why some believe this. At Pentecost, Scripture states, *“Then how does each of us hear them in his own native language?” * (Acts 2:8). And, surely a bunch of people came to Christ after this miracle. However, it is not quite clear whether the miracle was that the tongue-speakers were speaking in different languages, or that the different hearers were simply hearing the same words spoken, yet all hearing in their native languages. I would submit that the latter makes more sense, simply because if 200 people were speaking in 14+ different languages, I think it would be hard for anyone to understand what anyone was saying.
Further, although the gift of tongues is mentioned later in Scripture, it is not mentioned as a method of speaking in another language for evangelism, although I have heard modern day stories of such happening). Instead, Paul says, “For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens: he utters mysteries in spirit.”* I Cor 14:2*
Further, Paul says, “Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up,…”* 1 Cor 14:4*
Finally, I have read in this thread that this type of personal use of tongues is self-focused and sort of selfish. Actually, it is quite the opposite, if love is the motivation (as 1 Corinthians 13 says it should be.) I want and need to build myself up, so I can go out and serve all the more. It is no more self-centered for someone to build himself up spiritually by speaking in tongues than it would be for a basketball player to stay after practice to shoot 50 extra free thows. That extra shooting will help his personal free throw percentage, but it will also help the team. Likewise, “whoever speaks in tongues builds himself up” so that he can help the team - the Church!
Sure, let’s look out for counterfits, and let’s listen to the magisterial warnings about improper uses of the gifts. Paul’s own reprimands to the Corinthians were levied in part because they were using those gifts improperly and in an immature fashion. And, Catholic Charismatics and Tongue-speakers, let’s own up to times when we have been immature, pushy, offensive, proud, overzealous, or simply ineffective in explaining where we are coming from.
At the same time, let us be open to magisterial encouragement of movements such as the Catholic Charismatic Renewal – a movement that includes the speaking in tongues, and a movement encouraged and endorsed by the past three Popes.
I will again refer you to a helpful link relating to some of this stuff, and some thoughts by the last three Popes:
youtube.com/watch?v=J-QDOcDGDWA
Have a geat evening, everyone!
In His love,
Chrispy
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coleraine
Guest
silly gibberish. its not catholic is it? no. case closed.
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guanophore
Guest
Speaking in tongues is not gibberesh, and it is very Catholic.
C
coleraine
Guest
ive never heard a single priest or deacon or bishop do so. it is not part of the mass. but i wont underestimate you.
what does it say in the catechism?
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RubyT
Guest
One day I came home from work and my mother was alone and did not realize I was there. She was speaking/praying in a strange language that I did not understand. She recorded the prayer and took it to Cornell University and presented it to a language professor. He said it was a real language but no longer spoken today. The professor said he could not say exactly what language it was but knew it was ancient. It is my opinion that God allowed her to speak in tongues so that I may witness it. At the time I was far from being a spiritual person and (although I had been confirmed in my faith as a child) my heart had moved away from God. This was a turning point back to spiritual healing and faith for me. I began to grow my faith in Christ again. The bible says in Corinthians:
14:22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to unbelievers;
My Mother was the believer and I was the unbeliever. I have never spoken in tongues myself but seeing my Mother pray in tongues brought me back to being a believer and thank the Lord for that.
So my personal opinion is that speaking is tongues is real and one reason for it is to bring people to Christ who have lost their way. My Mother never could understand what the words were but explained to me that the prayer was because she was filled with the Holy Spirit and the actual words were to praise and Glorify God. Makes sense to me. She never knew the actual literal words but knew in her heart it was a prayer of praise. She could not control when she spoke in tongues. She told me sometimes when she prayed it just happened.
I have heard some churches screeching and wailing and this sounds nothing like the fervent prayer coming from my Mothers mouth in a strange language. So yes sometimes gibberish and sometimes for the purpose of the witness.
Moments before my Mother died she said 2 things. 1)the angels the angels and 2) Oh the Love, the Love and then she passed. She is in Heaven, I am quite sure of it. :angel1:
14:22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to unbelievers;
My Mother was the believer and I was the unbeliever. I have never spoken in tongues myself but seeing my Mother pray in tongues brought me back to being a believer and thank the Lord for that.
So my personal opinion is that speaking is tongues is real and one reason for it is to bring people to Christ who have lost their way. My Mother never could understand what the words were but explained to me that the prayer was because she was filled with the Holy Spirit and the actual words were to praise and Glorify God. Makes sense to me. She never knew the actual literal words but knew in her heart it was a prayer of praise. She could not control when she spoke in tongues. She told me sometimes when she prayed it just happened.
I have heard some churches screeching and wailing and this sounds nothing like the fervent prayer coming from my Mothers mouth in a strange language. So yes sometimes gibberish and sometimes for the purpose of the witness.
Moments before my Mother died she said 2 things. 1)the angels the angels and 2) Oh the Love, the Love and then she passed. She is in Heaven, I am quite sure of it. :angel1:
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guanophore
Guest
Perhaps you have been hanging with different priests and bishops? I have heard dozens of them.ive never heard a single priest or deacon or bishop do so. it is not part of the mass. but i wont underestimate you.
Generally, it is not appropriate during Mass, although I have been present when the priest allowed it during the parts of the liturgy.
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coleraine
Guest
im going to “ask an apologist”. look i dont know what your talking about, there is a way mass is supposed to be. one does not start rambling on in a rediculous manner. and since you refuse to do so, i will look it up.
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jean8
Guest
For those who doubt this wonderful gift of the Holy Spirit is for today , I assure you, the Holy Spirit is still blessing belivers with His gifts., as he determines. See 1Cor.12:10-11, Don’t doubt the Lord.
Ralph Martin appeared on EWTN on the J.H. progarm and gave an interesting talk on this gift. He calls it the Cursillo blessing.
users.eastlink.ca/~cursillopei/
I’m sure the RCC has a Charismatic Prayer group in your area.
If it doesn’t start one.
God bless you,
jean8
The Holy Spirit blessed me with this gift in 1952. I am truly blessed.
God bless you,
jean8
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