Speaking in Tongues

[Bruised_Reed]

I would bet that if you went into one of these Tongues sessions and spoke gibberish that many people around you would claim that they can understand you.

Only people with the gift of interpretation can understand Tongues although from reading these threads I get that the gift of Interpretation is rare. I just don’t see “many people” claiming they understood gibberish. Have you been to a prayer meeting where people prayed in tongues? You make me wonder by calling something a “Tongues session”.

Furthermore, what are the chances that by speaking gibberish that you actually speak a few words of some language or another? I would submit that the odds are very high considering there are over 6800 different languages in the world.

I think people who speak in tongues this way are no different then people who believe in ESP, Remote Viewing, etc…

Do reject the other Gifts of the Holy Spirit: Wisdom, Knowledge, Discernment, Faith, Healing…?

God doesn’t expect us to drop all sense of rational thought. In fact he gave us a rational mind so that we could identify him. Taking gibberish is not one of them.

Not one of what? Did you edit something out there?

People might claim that it brings them closer to God, but bible says very clearly that speaking in tongues is not for believers it is for unbelievers. It will not bring you closer to God.

do you understand this to mean unbelievers are to speak in tongues?

If you really want to be closer to God then say, “Jesus son of the living God have mercy on me a sinner” 1000 times. Then when you are done say it 10,000 times. When you do that say it 100,000 times. Then 1 million… until every word and action of yours is a prayer in itself.

the beauty of the Catholic church is that there is not a one-size-fits-all approach to holiness. There is room for authentic Charismatic prayer even if you don’t understand or like it.

 

[Ghoti]

How often has speaking in tongues been exhibited by any saints (other than the Apostles)?

And how frequently did this happen in the Church among the faithful before Vatican II?

 

[JamesG]

Only people with the gift of interpretation can understand Tongues although from reading these threads I get that the gift of Interpretation is rare. I just don’t see “many people” claiming they understood gibberish. Have you been to a prayer meeting where people prayed in tongues? You make me wonder by calling something a “Tongues session”.

Do reject the other Gifts of the Holy Spirit: Wisdom, Knowledge, Discernment, Faith, Healing…?

no I do not reject the 7 gifts of the holy spirt or the 12 fruits. I just think that many people are not using their rational mind when dealing with people who claim to speak in tongues.

I’m sure that if I was to enter into a room with a bunch of people speaking tongues that I could join them, speak gibberish, and many people would tell me that what I said made perfect sense.
With that said, I do not reject the very rare situation where it does happen, I just think that many people who engage in this practice are uneducated and irrational.

Not one of what? Did you edit something out there?

I wanted to say that I think that speaking gibberish to call upon the holy spirt is not a gift of the holy spirt. Jesus spoke against that kind of thoughtless prayer.

do you understand this to mean unbelievers are to speak in tongues?
the beauty of the Catholic church is that there is not a one-size-fits-all approach to holiness. There is room for authentic Charismatic prayer even if you don’t understand or like it.

I understand this to mean that speaking in tongues is a communication tool used by the holy spirt. It does not bring you closer to God only those who hear it

 

[byzgirl]

How is it that the charismatic movement within Catholicism seems to be reduced to tongues speaking? Is THAT it’s sole ‘claim to fame’?

Please enlighten me. It seems that every time I see anything posted about charismatic Catholics, it’s in regard to this one charism.

I tend to agree with the skeptics on this one. I have to state that, I am very much skeptical of most anything that mimics the Pentecostal movement within Protestantism.

I think it tends to move AWAY from the very source of our eternal life in Christ…AWAY from the focus of our worship as Catholics…the EUCHARIST.

It seems too ‘important’ to charismatics. Perhaps more so? within Catholic charismatic circles.

Again, I point to the fact that the Protestant charismatic ‘Pentecostal’ preacher I know (personally), states that it’s a sign of being ‘blessed’…but not actually necessary for salvation.

The EUCHARIST is, as we Catholics affirm, necessary (and as Jesus does in John 6).

I think Catholic charimatics should tread carefully in how they identify themselves, and in what is emphasized (perhaps too much).

 

[MariaG]

How is it that the charismatic movement within Catholicism seems to be reduced to tongues speaking? Is THAT it’s sole ‘claim to fame’?

Please enlighten me. It seems that every time I see anything posted about charismatic Catholics, it’s in regard to this one charism.

Respectfully, this is similar to non-Catholics who think there is too much emphasis about Mary. Since there is controversy, there is alot of apologetics/discussions about Mary. This can give the incorrect impression that Catholics place too much emphasis on Mary, when in fact, Catholics are just trying to give out CORRECT imformation about Catholic beliefs of Mary, defend her etc.

The charasmatic Catholic movement sometimes gets reduced to tongues because it is the controversial aspect of the movement that charasmatic Catholics feel the need to defend.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[byzgirl]

Respectfully, this is similar to non-Catholics who think there is too much emphasis about Mary. Since there is controversy, there is alot of apologetics/discussions about Mary. This can give the incorrect impression that Catholics place too much emphasis on Mary, when in fact, Catholics are just trying to give out CORRECT imformation about Catholic beliefs of Mary, defend her etc.

The charasmatic Catholic movement sometimes gets reduced to tongues because it is the controversial aspect of the movement that charasmatic Catholics feel the need to defend.

God Bless,
Maria

Okay, point well expressed. I can understand that answer.

However, since the charismatic brand of Catholicism is not Catholicism itself (but a brand therein), and some doctrines about Mary are non-negotiable, I don’t think the defense of said non-negotiables, by Catholics, are in the same arena with a certain practice within the charismatic movement of the Church.

Perhaps it IS the thing that is most-often picked on, but I’d like to hear what is the focus of the charismatic movement’s worship? Is it, as it should be, the Eucharist? Or is that overshadowed by tongue-speaking charism? What else ‘defines’ the charismatic movement?

 

[byzgirl]

Okay, point well expressed. I can understand that answer.

However, since the charismatic brand of Catholicism is not Catholicism itself (but a brand therein), and some doctrines about Mary are non-negotiable, I don’t think the defense of said non-negotiables, by Catholics, are in the same arena with a certain practice within the charismatic movement of the Church.

Perhaps it IS the thing that is most-often picked on, but I’d like to hear what is the focus of the charismatic movement’s worship? Is it, as it should be, the Eucharist? Or is that overshadowed by tongue-speaking charism? What else ‘defines’ the charismatic movement?

correction on that, all doctrines of the Catholic Church, about Mary are non-negotiable. Caught that and wanted to fix it.

Just to reiterate (awaiting response)…defense of the Church’s Marian doctrines are not quite the same thing as defense of a single practice of charismatic Catholicism.

Again, what else, besides this particular charism, defines the charismatic movement?

 

[guanophore]

Tongues is a rare gift.

Who told you that?

 The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not the same for everyone.  Not only that, it's not essential for salvation so spending an inordinate amount of time on it is a waste of time, time that can be more well spent worshiping God in Church.

Tongues can help people to worship.

 It's extremely unlikely that an entire congregation of people all have the gift of tongues.

If that is true, then why did Paul describe such a situation in the Corinthian Church as though it were commonplace?

 I would have to assume that most of them are just speaking gibberish..

You know where assumption can get you!

 Is it  insulting to the Holy Spirit?  Hard to say, again it's kind of misleading and not really productive.  I would assume God is just thinking that we do some weird things sometimes, He is probably not as insulted as He is confused.

I do think pretending to pray when you are not is an offense to God.

The last point I want to make is that it's been reported that people that are possessed speak in tongues.  Not that the people you know are possessed, but it's important to know that just because someone is speaking in tongues doesn't mean that what they are saying is coming from God.

This can certainly happen. It is necessary to test the spirits, whether they are of God.

 

[byzgirl]

Tongues can help people to worship.

As Catholics, what is the highest form of worship…the focus of our adoration? Answer: Christ in the Eucharist.

How does the gift of tongues help people, during the Mass, worship the Holy Eucharist?

Explain further under what circumstances charismatics ‘call down the Spirit’ for this practice of tongues

 

[dranzal]

There is a local Catholic Church here in which the priest encourages “tongues”. To his credit, he has gotten many of his parishioners to join household bible study type groups. Unfortunately, through these groups, he further encourages “tongues”. He also has “Life in the Spirit” seminars which includes “Baptism in the Spirit” and “Resting in the Spirit”.

Additionally, he specifically encourages his parishioners to engage in “tongues” during Mass, specifically during the consecration.

Though we haven’t been parishioners there for five years now, we are still in one of the “groups”. Sometimes we have the opportunity to point out some of the Pauline scriptures which seem to frown upon this activity. They resist it and defend the practice and Fr.

It can be frustrating.

 

[guanophore]

When the apostles spoke in tongues at Pentacost, they were speaking real languages, because all the foreigners around them could understand them. I don’t know how speaking in tongues morphed into speaking in gibberish.

This is only one of many kinds of tongues. Some worship in tongues sounds like “gibberish” to outsiders. Paul wrote to the Corinthian Church about this.

 

[guanophore]

"If speaking in tongues is still meant for “building up the Church” (and by Church I mean not a single church community–Catholic Charismatic or Protestant Charismatic/Pentecostal–but THE mystical Body of Christ…the one true Church…then where, exactly, is the gain? I don’t think that it is enough, for the entire Body, to state "well, so and so was speaking in tongues, and another so-and-so intepreted it to mean “I’m glad you’ve gathered and I love you”. As beautiful as that message is, it isn’t necessarily something which is going to move beyond those individuals or that little parish/gathering/community.

Perhaps not, but that little gathering and community is exactly where the strengthening is needed. If every small prayer group in every parish really REALLY GOT IT that God loves them, that would transform their lives. It is the conviction that we are loved by God that can enable parents to raise their children in the faith, and for those children to become light and salt to the world. This is where transformaton takes place, adn the building of the Body happens. One by one.

I’m thinking that the original Pentecost was something much larger (it was, and was, while completely miraculous and awe-inspiring, also very PRACTICAL). As for speaking in tongues, in modern times (and I’m not a complete skeptic, but close enough)…you’d think that it would have a larger purpose than ‘individuals’ being amazed at each other’s charisms.

The building up of the Body is not about standing around being amazed. Indeed, it does have a much larger purpose.

1 Cor 14:12
12 So with yourselves; since you are eager for spiritual gifts, strive to excel in them for building up the church.

1 Cor 14:4
4 Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves,

Every single believer who has a strong and devoted prayer life will strengthen the Body.

1 Cor 12:26
26 If one member suffers, all suffer together with it; if one member is honored, all rejoice together with it.

If one member is built up, then all will be strengthened.

I’m a big proponent for the ordinary charisms that we christians all possess. I believe and have seen the Holy Spirit work through those charisms, in amazing ways…and, as a whole, I think that they are much better for building up the body than one single (unusual) gift that seems to have more to do with proving how ‘annointed/blessed’ one is, than actually building up the Body.

Certainly this has been one of the abuses of this gift, and not it’s intended us, as the Apostle clearly states. However, it is not for us to determine which gifts are most appropriate or their spiritual purpose. To do such a think would be usurping the place of God.

1 Cor 12:7-11
7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the discernment of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 **All these are activated by one and the same Spirit, who allots to each one individually just as the Spirit chooses. **

Does that make sense?"

It seems to me that you have closed yourself against this gift because it has been abused.

 

[byzgirl]

There is a local Catholic Church here in which the priest encourages “tongues”. To his credit, he has gotten many of his parishioners to join household bible study type groups. Unfortunately, through these groups, he further encourages “tongues”. He also has “Life in the Spirit” seminars which includes “Baptism in the Spirit” and “Resting in the Spirit”.

Additionally, he specifically encourages his parishioners to engage in “tongues” during Mass, specifically during the consecration.

Though we haven’t been parishioners there for five years now, we are still in one of the “groups”. Sometimes we have the opportunity to point out some of the Pauline scriptures which seem to frown upon this activity. They resist it and defend the practice and Fr.

It can be frustrating.

That’s an example of what bothers me.

Isn’t the “Baptism of the Spirit” a Evangelical/Pentecostal belief (an alternative to the Catholic idea of receiving the Holy Spirit)? Obviously, for us, it is in the regenerative water of baptism. For them, water baptism is just a symbol/sign. Even so, their belief is calling down the Spirit upon believers for the purpose of speaking in tongues is optional! It is not necessary for salvation (only a sinner’s prayer fulfills that).

Are charismatic Catholics blurring the lines between orthodox Catholic belief and Pentecostal-style Protestant beliefs?

We Catholics believe that we receive the Holy Spirit, first and foremost, through the Sacraments of the Church…in Baptism/Chrismation ‘Confirmation’ (I’m a Byzantine Catholic).
Of course, we should continue to reaffirm and reconsecrate ourselves to God, continually, so that the Holy Spirit can continue to work in our lives, and guide us.
But Christ established the Church and its sacraments, as the way to convey grace to us.

I just can’t help but think that charismatic Catholics are overstepping boundaries and dragging in unnecessary beliefs that could border heretical, if not very careful. I do suspect many abuses. It’s not that I think Liturgical abuses aren’t found, in other Catholic churches (they are, sadly), but I am weary of movements that so closely mimic Evangelical/Pentecostal groups are likely to be rampant with abuses, and/or fall into heresy.

What is “Resting in the Spirit?”

Hypothetically, I wonder if this priest whom you speak of–if he would decide to start up his own church–would those people follow him out of the Catholic Church?

I just wonder, to myself, which is more important to charismatic catholics…being ‘charismatic’ or Catholic.

Also, no one has answered to my question as to what else defines charismatic catholicism besides the PRACTICE of tongue speaking. Still curious.

I didn’t know that they were encouraged to ‘speak in tongues’ during the consecration. That seems very wrong to me. Call me old-fashioned, but I love the sacredness of the Liturgy (and the reverence). While I feel the Holy Spirit’s presence, inwardly, I would feel it a distraction and an insult (almost bordering sacrilege), if people were to start shouting, speaking gibberish or whatever, during the consecration.

I’d be upset!

 

[byzgirl]

Guanophore wrote:

Certainly this has been one of the abuses of this gift, and not it’s intended us, as the Apostle clearly states. However, it is not for us to determine which gifts are most appropriate or their spiritual purpose. To do such a think would be usurping the place of God.

But isn’t it forcing the hand of God? I mean, most of the people gathered for the tongue-speaking ‘event’ are there because THAT is the ONE gift that they WANT. They don’t WANT the Holy Spirit to give them another, perhaps less ‘supernatural’ gift. It’s not exactly giving the Holy Spirit the choice to give the believer what gifts that He chooses; rather, desiring and asking (all) for the same gift.

The Pentecostals think it is a sign of the individual’s being specially blessed. But, at the same time, not necessary for salvation. So, what do they do with the gift (besides impress one another). What good use do they put the gift to?

I could see, if there was some miraculous event in the life of a very holy person (saintly) who needed to convey some message to a dying person or some other dire situation…and God granted them the gift of tongues in order to save them (physically and/or spiritually)…because they needed to know another language on the spot. That would be the kind of miracle I would find believable.

I just can’t see an entire group of people, scheduling ‘tongue-speaking’ revival meetings, and all receiving the same gift (that really doesn’t leave that room (or church).

It doesn’t feel right to me, at all.

Again, what else ‘defines’ charismatic Catholicism, besides tongue-speaking?

It seems like peer pressure.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t know, but it sure sounds like a confusing ‘event’ (charismatic tongue-speaking gathering).

I guess you would not feel very comfortable at any meetings of the early church, then, since they were all charismatic tongue speaking things.

I’m still a skeptic to the whole scenario. It just doesn’t seem like it produces much faith for others (besides those in attendance)…and for all we know, those in attendance, are assisting each other in ‘false shows’. How would we know?

We know them by their fruits. Just as we can see by your fruit that you have judged and found wanting.

I am not familiar with the charismatic movement within Catholicism. And I wouldn’t necessarily thumb my nose at their Liturgical style (if in keeping with the Church/canon law) nor their Evangelical outreach programs, etc.

It certainly does seem like nose thumbing to me.

However, the pentecostal ‘tongue-speaking’ just seems unnecessary. I’m all for enthusiasm and zeal, but I think it’s just too centered on particular individuals, and not enough to ‘bolster the entire Body of Christ’.

I agree that the use of the gifts out of order is not good for the Body. However, declaring any of the gifts of God “unnecessary” just seems quite presumptuous to me.

Who are you to decide God’s gifts are not necessary?

I think it’s too ripe for fakery and showmanship than real, authentic, Catholic spirituality.

Well, news flash. The gifts of the Spirit are real, Catholic spirituality. The fact that other non-Catholic groups have abused the gifts does not change the fact that they were given to the Catholic Church for the building up of the Body.

That’s just an opinion.

At least you are willing to own that much.

 

[guanophore]

Furthermore, what are the chances that by speaking gibberish that you actually speak a few words of some language or another? I would submit that the odds are very high considering there are over 6800 different languages in the world.

Just because you do not understand what is being said, does not make it “gibberish”.

1 Cor 14:1-3
2 For those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but to God; for nobody understands them, since they are speaking mysteries in the Spirit.

I think people who speak in tongues this way are no different then people who believe in ESP, Remote Viewing, etc…

It is little wonder that the Spirit gives these gifts to non-Catholics, with this type of attitude so rampant.

God doesn’t expect us to drop all sense of rational thought. In fact he gave us a rational mind so that we could identify him. Taking gibberish is not one of them.

I agree, but the fact that you do not understand something does not make it gibberish, either.

People might claim that it brings them closer to God, but bible says very clearly that speaking in tongues is not for believers it is for unbelievers. It will not bring you closer to God.

No, James, the bible does not say this. This is a reference to the use of the gift during public gatherings.

1 Cor 14:4
4 Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves,

This gift does strengthen the prayer life of the believer, and will bring a person closer to God.

If you really want to be closer to God then say, “Jesus son of the living God have mercy on me a sinner” 1000 times. Then when you are done say it 10,000 times. When you do that say it 100,000 times. Then 1 million… until every word and action of yours is a prayer in itself.

Both methods will work. Some people have difficulty with repetitive prayer, and prefer spontaneous prayer.

1 Cor 12:11
11 All these are activated by one and the same Spirit, who allots to each one individually just as the Spirit chooses.

What I see here is a disobedience of the Apostolic command.:

1 Cor 14:5
5 Now I would like all of you to speak in tongues…

 

[byzgirl]

I guess you would not feel very comfortable at any meetings of the early church, then, since they were all charismatic tongue speaking things.

We know them by their fruits. Just as we can see by your fruit that you have judged and found wanting.

It certainly does seem like nose thumbing to me.

I agree that the use of the gifts out of order is not good for the Body. However, declaring any of the gifts of God “unnecessary” just seems quite presumptuous to me.

Who are you to decide God’s gifts are not necessary?

Well, news flash. The gifts of the Spirit are real, Catholic spirituality. The fact that other non-Catholic groups have abused the gifts does not change the fact that they were given to the Catholic Church for the building up of the Body.

At least you are willing to own that much.

If tongue-speaking is not the main ‘event’ for charismatic Catholics, then why such ‘defensiveness’?

Another post compared charismatic defense of tongue-speaking the same as Catholic defense of Marian doctrines. Last time I checked, we were all supposed to be Catholics, so I think we should all be defending Mary and the Church’s doctrines.

Regardless, I keep asking what else ‘defines’ charismatic Catholicism, and I am not hearing anything yet. The defensiveness seems to point to the fact that it’s not so much about our “picking on it”, as it is about the central focus that charismatic Catholics give it.

Are you Catholic first? I’m a Eastern (Byzantine Rite) Catholic, but I consider myself to be Catholic, first and foremost. In the Catholic forum, there was a question (If the Eastern Church went defunct, would you start attending the Roman (latin rite) Church or become an Orthodox?). My answer: Roman Catholic. I’m a Catholic, over and above anything else (because I understand that designation to mean an orthodox Christian in union with Peter and his successors).

In what order do most charismatic Catholics think of themselves? Would they run to the nearest Pentecostal church, if the Catholic Church went belly up (hypothetically, of course)?

 

[byzgirl]

The gifts of the Spirit are real, Catholic spirituality

Yes…and a “news flash for you”…it’s plural. Not everyone is going to get the same exact gift, just because they pray for it!

I believe that all of us have gifts…but they are according to God’s will, not our own.

 

[byzgirl]

You know, the Church has a sacrament of annointing (healing of the sick). Sometimes it heals the person physically and sometimes not (only spiritually, perhaps)…through the prayers of the priest who acts in the place of Jesus.

However, it’s not ‘always’, but very infrequently, that a miracle occurs, and a person, who is sick from a very serious, documented, illness, is physically healed through this Sacrament. It can happen, but it doesn’t happen often.

How’s come charismatic Catholics expect the Holy Spirit to work, on demand, and bestow the tongue-speaking gift on everyone, present, who desires it?

Catholic spirituality is christ-centered, not self-centered.

I believe that the Apostles and early church’s disciples ( in the Book of Acts) could speak in tongues…but it was for a special purpose (to spread the Gospel to all corners of the globe…where the NECESSITY for speaking in other foreign languages was NEEDED. It wasn’t just to impress one another…it was to build up the Church (physically *and *spiritually).
It was a miracle meant for human ears, so that human beings could communicate to one another and enable the spreading of the Gospel, the receiving of new believers (catechumens) and for the business of beginning and building up church communities throughout the world…

Doesn’t seem like the same scenario today.

 

[byzgirl]

1 Cor 12:11
11 All these are activated by one and the same Spirit, who allots to *each one *individually just as the Spirit chooses.