Speaking in Tongues

[byzgirl]

Guanophore wrote (rather sarcastically):I guess you would not feel very comfortable at any meetings of the early church, then, since they were all charismatic tongue speaking things.

Don’t forget, besides the building up of the Church (and speaking in foreign languages to assist with that, according to God’s Will), the early Christians gathered, as commanded, to share in the Liturgy and partake of the Holy Eucharist.

Do charismatic catholics place more emphasis on tongue-speaking than the Eucharist?

What else defines charismatic catholicism?

 

[byzgirl]

That’s an example of what bothers me.

Isn’t the “Baptism of the Spirit” a Evangelical/Pentecostal belief (an alternative to the Catholic idea of receiving the Holy Spirit)? Obviously, for us, it is in the regenerative water of baptism. For them, water baptism is just a symbol/sign. Even so, their belief is calling down the Spirit upon believers for the purpose of speaking in tongues is optional! It is not necessary for salvation (only a sinner’s prayer fulfills that).

Are charismatic Catholics blurring the lines between orthodox Catholic belief and Pentecostal-style Protestant beliefs?

We Catholics believe that we receive the Holy Spirit, first and foremost, through the Sacraments of the Church…in Baptism/Chrismation ‘Confirmation’ (I’m a Byzantine Catholic).
Of course, we should continue to reaffirm and reconsecrate ourselves to God, continually, so that the Holy Spirit can continue to work in our lives, and guide us.
But Christ established the Church and its sacraments, as the way to convey grace to us.

I just can’t help but think that charismatic Catholics are overstepping boundaries and dragging in unnecessary beliefs that could border heretical, if not very careful. I do suspect many abuses. It’s not that I think Liturgical abuses aren’t found, in other Catholic churches (they are, sadly), but I am weary of movements that so closely mimic Evangelical/Pentecostal groups are likely to be rampant with abuses, and/or fall into heresy.

What is “Resting in the Spirit?”

Hypothetically, I wonder if this priest whom you speak of–if he would decide to start up his own church–would those people follow him out of the Catholic Church?

I just wonder, to myself, which is more important to charismatic catholics…being ‘charismatic’ or Catholic.

Also, no one has answered to my question as to what else defines charismatic catholicism besides the practice (‘gift’) of tongue speaking. Still curious.

I didn’t know that they were encouraged to ‘speak in tongues’ during the consecration. That seems very wrong to me. Call me old-fashioned, but I love the sacredness of the Liturgy (and the reverence). While I feel the Holy Spirit’s presence, inwardly, I would feel it a distraction and an insult (almost bordering sacrilege), if people were to start shouting, speaking gibberish or whatever, during the consecration.

I’d be upset!

 

[jean8]

Okay so some folks claim to speak in tongues; are there folks who can intrepret tongues? I’m asking because I’ve never heard of any.

wolf,
You most likely have not heard of this because you haven’t visited a Pentecostal church. 1Cor. 12:11 tells us the Holy Spirit gives His gifts as he determines. also 1Cor.12:30 says not all people receive this gift… See Acts 10:44 Early church event.

The problem with Pentecostals (UPCI) is, they teach this is required to be saved. There is no scriupture for this teaching. Many folks are attracted to this church because of tongue speaking. Ralph Martin a noted Catholic has appeared on EWTN talking about this gift. Look him up on the net.

God bless,
jean8

 

[jean8]

Guanophore wrote (rather sarcastically):I guess ****you would not feel very comfortable at any meetings of the early church, then, since they were all charismatic tongue speaking things.

Don’t forget, besides the building up of the Church (and speaking in foreign languages to assist with that, according to God’s Will), the early Christians gathered, as commanded, to share in the Liturgy and partake of the Holy Eucharist.

Do charismatic catholics place more emphasis on tongue-speaking than the Eucharist?

What else defines charismatic catholicism?

I hope not. Receiving the Body and Blood of Christ comes first in any church. I call this ," the Real Presence."

God bless,
jean8

 

[guanophore]

However, since the charismatic brand of Catholicism is not Catholicism itself (but a brand therein), and some doctrines about Mary are non-negotiable, I don’t think the defense of said non-negotiables, by Catholics, are in the same arena with a certain practice within the charismatic movement of the Church.

This is not true. Catholicism is charismatic. The charisms of the Spirit are just as much a part of the Apostolic faith as the Marian doctrines. It is not a “brand” of Catholicism. Catholics have many various devotionals and expressions of faith. The Charismatic gifts are Catholic and appropriate expressions of that faith. The charismatic gifts have been part of Catholicism since Pentecost, the present day “movement” notwithstanding.

Perhaps it IS the thing that is most-often picked on, but I'd like to hear what is the focus of the charismatic movement's worship?

Jesus.

  Is it, as it should be, the Eucharist?  Or is that overshadowed by  tongue-speaking charism?  What *else* 'defines' the charismatic movement?

I will not deny that some of the abuses of the pentecostal influence have detracted from the sacramental life. However, that does not equate to the gifts of the Spirit being invalid, any more than the abuses if the Liturgy in the name of the “spirit of Vatican II” invalidate the liturgy, or the Council.

Authenticity is not judged by abuse, but by the correct teaching.

Just to reiterate (awaiting response)…defense of the Church’s Marian doctrines are not quite the same thing as defense of a single practice of charismatic Catholicism.

Do you think that some beliefs of the Church deserve less defense?

Again, what else, besides this particular charism, defines the charismatic movement?

I think this is an excellent question! It is my fervent hope and prayer that you, and all the rest of the skeptics that post here on CAF will openly explore this grossly neglected aspect of Catholicism and recover the roots from whence it came, so that it can be reclaimed by the modern abuses and again be restored to right functioning in the Church to which it was given in the first place.

 

[guanophore]

Tongues can help people to worship.

As Catholics, what is the highest form of worship…the focus of our adoration? Answer: Christ in the Eucharist.

How does the gift of tongues help people, during the Mass, worship the Holy Eucharist?

Explain further under what circumstances charismatics ‘call down the Spirit’ for this practice of tongues

I am sorry that I cannot do this. I am not familiar with this phrase, or what is meant by it. We are filled with the Spirit in Baptism,and sealed in Confirmation. As far as I can tell, it is a matter of yielding to the Spirit within so that the heart and expressions conform to the will of God.

In my experience, the tongues well up from within during Eucharistic adoration.

Isn’t the “Baptism of the Spirit” a Evangelical/Pentecostal belief (an alternative to the Catholic idea of receiving the Holy Spirit)?

I don’t think it is an “alternative”. I think it is different language describing the same thing.

Obviously, for us, it is in the regenerative water of baptism. For them, water baptism is just a symbol/sign.

Yes, but the Church recognizes these baptisms as valid because they intend what the Church intends, and use proper form and matter. Therefore, we believe that the Spirit acts just as He does for Catholics.

Even so, their belief is calling down the Spirit upon believers for the purpose of speaking in tongues is optional! It is not necessary for salvation (only a sinner’s prayer fulfills that).

I have known many Pentecostals and charismatic non-Catholics. I have never known any to “call down the Spirit for the purpose of speaking in tongues”. This seems like a very strange phrase to me.

Are charismatic Catholics blurring the lines between orthodox Catholic belief and Pentecostal-style Protestant beliefs?

I think there has been a lot of blurring in many areas. Again, the blurs do not invalidate the true gift and it’s use.

We Catholics believe that we receive the Holy Spirit, first and foremost, through the Sacraments of the Church…in Baptism/Chrismation ‘Confirmation’ (I’m a Byzantine Catholic).

Of course, we should continue to reaffirm and reconsecrate ourselves to God, continually, so that the Holy Spirit can continue to work in our lives, and guide us.
But Christ established the Church and its sacraments, as the way to convey grace to us.

God is not limited to the Sacraments, and the charismatic life is one of doing exactly what you state here, continually reaffirming and consecrating ourselves to God, so that the HS can work in us, and guide us.

I just can’t help but think that charismatic Catholics are overstepping boundaries and dragging in unnecessary beliefs that could border heretical, if not very careful. I do suspect many abuses.

Indeed there are many opportunities for abuse and heresy everywhere. To refuse God’s gifts to us out of fear, however, seems like it is not from God, either. God has not given us a spirit of fear.

It's not that I think Liturgical abuses aren't found, in other Catholic churches (they are, sadly), but I am weary of movements that so closely mimic Evangelical/Pentecostal groups are likely to be rampant with abuses, and/or fall into heresy.

A just caution. But quenching the Spirit is not the answer. Rather, authentic expression and proper teaching is what curbs abuse and heresy.

What is “Resting in the Spirit?”

It is when the power of the HS is so overwhelming that a person’s natural ability to hold themselves up is insufficient.

Hypothetically, I wonder if this priest whom you speak of–if he would decide to start up his own church–would those people follow him out of the Catholic Church?

I just wonder, to myself, which is more important to charismatic catholics…being ‘charismatic’ or Catholic.

A choice is not necessary. Nor is it necessary for faithful Catholics to leave the Church to enjoy the spirit filled life.

Also, no one has answered to my question as to what else defines charismatic catholicism besides the PRACTICE of tongue speaking. Still curious.

I think the major significance I can see is people who are on fire for God.

I didn’t know that they were encouraged to ‘speak in tongues’ during the consecration. That seems very wrong to me. Call me old-fashioned, but I love the sacredness of the Liturgy (and the reverence). While I feel the Holy Spirit’s presence, inwardly, I would feel it a distraction and an insult (almost bordering sacrilege), if people were to start shouting, speaking gibberish or whatever, during the consecration.

I think you have misunderstood. There is no shouting or gibberish. It is a beautiful song of heavenly worship.

I’d be upset!

Hopefully someday you will be able to experience these gifts in their beauty and proper use, so that you will not have to be upset by them.

 

[guanophore]

But isn’t it forcing the hand of God? I mean, most of the people gathered for the tongue-speaking ‘event’ are there because THAT is the ONE gift that they WANT.

Well, I would not know about that. I have only been charismatic for about 40 years now, and I have not yet ever been to such an event. I do understand that these occur, but I have never had any desire to go or be part of one. To me, it seems like a form of idolatry, seeking the gift, rather than the giver. I only attend meetings where the purpose is to praise and worship the Lord, or to receive teaching about Jesus.

They don’t WANT the Holy Spirit to give them another, perhaps less ‘supernatural’ gift. It’s not exactly giving the Holy Spirit the choice to give the believer what gifts that He chooses; rather, desiring and asking (all) for the same gift.

I guess you are right, as I say, I do not associate with such persons, but I do agree with you that they do exist, and that this does happen.

The Pentecostals think it is a sign of the individual’s being specially blessed. But, at the same time, not necessary for salvation. So, what do they do with the gift (besides impress one another). What good use do they put the gift to?

I guess you will have to ask one!

I could see, if there was some miraculous event in the life of a very holy person (saintly) who needed to convey some message to a dying person or some other dire situation…and God granted them the gift of tongues in order to save them (physically and/or spiritually)…because they needed to know another language on the spot. That would be the kind of miracle I would find believable.

And indeed such things have happened! However, the devoted saints have also experienced the form of tongues that is a private prayer language - the Spirit of God praying through the person in an unknown tongue.

I just can’t see an entire group of people, scheduling ‘tongue-speaking’ revival meetings, and all receiving the same gift (that really doesn’t leave that room (or church).

No, I cannot imagine such a thing either. It seems to me that the gift of tongues belongs to the person to whom it was given, and goes with them everywhere they go. I can pray in tongues on a bus, in an elevator, and in a meeting as much as I can in a 'revival".

However, I have never been part of anything that was scheduled for “tongue speaking”. Only for praise and worship, that may have included this expression.

It doesn’t feel right to me, at all.

No, I should think not. It sounds as if you have no experience of the authentic and praisworthy use of the charismatic variety.

Again, what else ‘defines’ charismatic Catholicism, besides tongue-speaking?

The ability to “pray without ceasing” (remain in a condition of persistent prayerfulness throughout the day).

It seems like peer pressure.

I have witnessed and been subject to quite a bit of peer pressure in Pentecostal circles, so I can see your point here. However, if that is all there was, then saints who were all alone in their prayer closet would not be receiving the gift!

 

[guanophore]

Guanophore wrote (rather sarcastically):I guess ****you would not feel very comfortable at any meetings of the early church, then, since they were all charismatic tongue speaking things.

Yeah, it was kinda wasn’t it? I do seem to take it kinda personal when even my fellow Catholics find it necessary to devalue my spiritual experiences because they are different.

Do you not get the impression, reading the letters to the Corinthian Church, that this was normative?

Don’t forget, besides the building up of the Church (and speaking in foreign languages to assist with that, according to God’s Will), the early Christians gathered, as commanded, to share in the Liturgy and partake of the Holy Eucharist.

Of course. The Spiritual gifts are in no way contradictory with the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Do charismatic catholics place more emphasis on tongue-speaking than the Eucharist?

I am sure that there are, just like, as I have heard on these threads, there are some Catholics who place more emphasis on prayers to Mary than they seem to give to Jesus. Abuse can be found in every kind of devotion, I suppose. Here in my neck of the woods, there are people who call themselves “penitentes” who will literally whip themselves and draw blood. Every year, at least one of them will have himself crucified in commemoration of Good Friday. Some of them have done it more than once!

What else defines charismatic catholicism?

Charismatic Catholics excercise the charismatic gifts in everyday life.

How’s come charismatic Catholics expect the Holy Spirit to work, on demand, and bestow the tongue-speaking gift on everyone, present, who desires it?

I am sorry, I cannot answer this either, because I don’t know any Catholics like this. It sounds like a Pentecostal influence.

It is appropriate to ask for the gifts, and to approach with open mindedness that God will give them. Why would one NOT want such a gift, if God wanted to give it? Why would one not ask?

Catholic spirituality is christ-centered, not self-centered.

Such a statement seems to imply that you believe the exercise of the charismata is self centered.

I believe that the Apostles and early church’s disciples ( in the Book of Acts) could speak in tongues…but it was for a special purpose (to spread the Gospel to all corners of the globe…where the NECESSITY for speaking in other foreign languages was NEEDED.

This is certainly one authentic variety and use of the gift. It is not the only one, and it must be noted that it still function today.

It wasn’t just to impress one another…it was to build up the Church (physically *and *spiritually).

Clearly you seem to have been exposed to Pentecostals who were self absorbed, focused on the gift rather than the Giver, and were seeking the gifts for themselves, rather than for the benefit of the Church. It is a shame.

It was a miracle meant for human ears, so that human beings could communicate to one another and enable the spreading of the Gospel, the receiving of new believers (catechumens) and for the business of beginning and building up church communities throughout the world…

Not all the expressions of the gift of tongues are meant this way.

Doesn’t seem like the same scenario today.

You have not been doing missionary work, maybe, where this gift functions today in the Church. It also seems that you have not been exposed to other authentic expressions of the gift of tongues.

 

[guanophore]

If tongue-speaking is not the main ‘event’ for charismatic Catholics, then why such ‘defensiveness’?

I get defensive because people malign what has been a valuable and authentic spiritual experience for me by calling it demonic, or gibberish, or made up, etc. I also get defensive when people deny the Apostolic faith. If you read the threads, I think you will find that I am every bit (and probably more) a defender of Mary on these threads.

Another post compared charismatic defense of tongue-speaking the same as Catholic defense of Marian doctrines. Last time I checked, we were all supposed to be Catholics, so I think we should all be defending Mary and the Church’s doctrines.

The main difference is that Protestants began to vigorously deny the Marian doctrines, so that they needed formal definition. Most Protestants have had a very postive experience of the Holy Spirit, and the gifts, so it is not such a point of attack in need of defense.

Regardless, I keep asking what else ‘defines’ charismatic Catholicism, and I am not hearing anything yet. The defensiveness seems to point to the fact that it’s not so much about our “picking on it”, as it is about the central focus that charismatic Catholics give it.

It seems odd for you to say this, since you don’t seem to know or understand what charismatic catholics do.

It is an expression of spirituality. Some people like to pray the Rosary. Others criticize this form of devotion because they say it is “reptitious” and therefore “vain”. I don’t happen to agree with the detractors, but at the same time, the Rosary as a devotion does not commend itself to me. I am much more comfortable with praying in tongues.

Are you Catholic first? I’m a Eastern (Byzantine Rite) Catholic, but I consider myself to be Catholic, first and foremost.

No, I was not. Though I was baptized Catholic, I did not learn my faith, and was lured out by “bible Christians”. I returned to the Church as a result of the Charismatic Catholics I met who knew their scriptures and were on fire about their faith. They lived the authentic Christian life that I craved. After a long time, I was able to also return to the sacramental life. I have not found it incompatible with the charismatic forms of devotion, any more that the sacramental life is contrary to the Rosary.

In what order do most charismatic Catholics think of themselves? Would they run to the nearest Pentecostal church, if the Catholic Church went belly up (hypothetically, of course)?

I can’t answer this either. I only have known a few hundred charismatic catholics in my life. All of them would rather die than give up the Real Presence.

The gifts ****of the Spirit are real, Catholic spirituality

Yes…and a “news flash for you”…it’s plural. Not everyone is going to get the same exact gift, just because they pray for it!

I believe that all of us have gifts…but they are according to God’s will, not our own.

Sorry, there is no “news flash” here for me.

You know, the Church has a sacrament of annointing (healing of the sick). Sometimes it heals the person physically and sometimes not (only spiritually, perhaps)…through the prayers of the priest who acts in the place of Jesus.

However, it’s not ‘always’, but very infrequently, that a miracle occurs, and a person, who is sick from a very serious, documented, illness, is physically healed through this Sacrament. It can happen, but it doesn’t happen often.

I think this is because the efficacy of the sacrament is influenced by the disposition of the recipient. When one approaches with faithful expectation, the difference is remarkable. I think a miracle happens during every annointing. It is a little known fact that the Sacrament dispenses the same remission of sins as Reconciliation. A persons sins are forgiven. This diverts the recipient from death into life!

 

[Bruised_Reed]

At the risk of stating the obvious some of you have really weird notions of Charismatics, CCR and tongues that are not based on anything concrete. I understand better the concerns and criticisms of those who were involved with CCR or Pentecostalism and left.

I might not have had those same negative experiences but I can tell the difference between something that happened that was irregular or not of Holy Spirit and something from someone’s imagination far away from what CCR and tongues is.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

FWIW as a Charismatic I did not have the gift of tongues. So there. No one ever tried to force me to speak/pray in tongues nor was my faithfulness or salvation called into question.

Also, no one has answered to my question as to what else defines charismatic catholicism besides the PRACTICE of tongue speaking. Still curious.

The manifestation of the other gifts and using them to minister to the church. Consider how the gifts of faith or healing, wisdom or knowledge could build up the church.

I didn’t know that they were encouraged to ‘speak in tongues’ during the consecration. That seems very wrong to me. Call me old-fashioned, but I love the sacredness of the Liturgy (and the reverence). While I feel the Holy Spirit’s presence, inwardly, I would feel it a distraction and an insult (almost bordering sacrilege), if people were to start shouting, speaking gibberish or whatever, during the consecration.

I’d be upset!

I’ve been to a couple of diocesan Charismatic conferences that included the Mass. BTW the (very orthodox) bishop presided. During parts of the Mass including the Consecration people prayed, some prayed in tongues. It sounded like angels. How could all those voices (hundreds) pray and sing, with out following a song, harmonize like that.

Not having heard anything like that before (or since), I was surprised but not upset. I just prayed with them.

Can I ask those of you who are critical of tongues and Charismatic prayer where you are getting your information? Your descriptions of it are curious.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

no I do not reject the 7 gifts of the holy spirt or the 12 fruits. I just think that many people are not using their rational mind when dealing with people who claim to speak in tongues.

Do you always use your rational mind when you pray?

I’m sure that if I was to enter into a room with a bunch of people speaking tongues that I could join them, speak gibberish, and many people would tell me that what I said made perfect sense.

You keep saying this so you seem very certain. But can I choose the group that you do this with. Because I actually agree, you could enter some room somewhere (I do not know where this would be exactly) and do this and they would say it made sense. That group has a problem.

But let me pick the group. I won’t give you away. I just want the group to have someone with the gifts of interpretation and discernment. Because you can’t join them and speak gibberish and have them say it made sense.

I’m trying to picture what you picture in your head about this. You have no idea people are praying do you?

With that said, I do not reject the very rare situation where it does happen, I just think that many people who engage in this practice are uneducated and irrational.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
As far as uneducated? Who do you imagine these people are? Do master’s degrees and professional jobs give them credibility? If so, it’s pretty elitist.

I wanted to say that I think that speaking gibberish to call upon the holy spirt is not a gift of the holy spirt. Jesus spoke against that kind of thoughtless prayer.

I understand this to mean that speaking in tongues is a communication tool used by the holy spirt. It does not bring you closer to God only those who hear it

Prayer doesn’t bring one closer to God? Interesting.

 

[mlz]

1 Corinthians 14:1-5 1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3 But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified

Good point, speaking in tongues has often been referred to as a “prayer language”. The Holy Spirit in you is praying through you. This is how I use my prayer language. I have seen this abused. We must always be grateful for His gracious gifts and use them responsibly and with humility.
mlz

 

[byzgirl]

wolf,
You most likely have not heard of this because you haven’t visited a Pentecostal church. 1Cor. 12:11 tells us the Holy Spirit gives His gifts as he determines. also 1Cor.12:30 says not all people receive this gift… See Acts 10:44 Early church event.

The problem with Pentecostals (UPCI) is, they teach this is required to be saved. There is no scriupture for this teaching. Many folks are attracted to this church because of tongue speaking. Ralph Martin a noted Catholic has appeared on EWTN talking about this gift. Look him up on the net.

God bless,
jean8

The problem with Pentecostals (UPCI) is, they teach this is required to be saved

The problem with Protestantism, in general, is that there is no agreement on this essential ‘doctrine’ (whether or not it is a fundamental requirement for salvation). My brother-in-law is a non-denominational, charismatic Evangelical pastor…and while he encourages water baptism as well as baptism in the Holy Spirit (where the believers speak in tongues, supposedly), he claims that it is optional.

So which bible-believing church is correct? Is it a requirement of salvation or not?

Thus the reason I think charismatic Catholics should tread carefully, on how important they place the charism in their worship (hopefully the view the Eucharist as the source and summit of our Christian lives, as JPII said), isn’t overshadowed by the desire for a particular charism.

The closer charismatics parallel Pentecostal (Protestantism) movements, the scarier it becomes.

That is another reason why I keep asking what else is prominent, in being ‘charismatic’, other than tongue-speaking. Is that the ONLY charism they lay claim to?

 

[byzgirl]

FWIW as a Charismatic I did not have the gift of tongues. So there. No one ever tried to force me to speak/pray in tongues nor was my faithfulness or salvation called into question.

The manifestation of the other gifts and using them to minister to the church. Consider how the gifts of faith or healing, wisdom or knowledge could build up the church.
I’ve been to a couple of diocesan Charismatic conferences that included the Mass. BTW the (very orthodox) bishop presided. During parts of the Mass including the Consecration people prayed, some prayed in tongues. It sounded like angels. How could all those voices (hundreds) pray and sing, with out following a song, harmonize like that.

Not having heard anything like that before (or since), I was surprised but not upset. I just prayed with them.

Can I ask those of you who are critical of tongues and Charismatic prayer where you are getting your information? Your descriptions of it are curious.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a skeptic…that doesn’t mean that I am in complete disbelief of it ever having happened (obviously, it did in the early church) nor that it can’t happen in the present (although I do think a majority of it is contrived and not 'of the Holy Spirit), for reasons I’ve given before.

The Mass you describe sounds civil enough, and that people maintained a sense of the sacred. While I would find it ‘uncomfortable’, as I do some of the added Liturgical practices that have seeped into the Latin Rite (like holding hands during the Our Father, etc.some being actual abuses)…I would not call it an outright sacrilege. I’m happy to hear that it has some dignity to it, and NOT like most of the Pentecostal (Protestant) tent revival meetings! Eegads.

I am NOT comfortable with handraising, clapping, shouting, swaying, holding hands, and other such ‘innovations’ introduced into the Liturgy, from such ‘influences’ as Pentecostalism.

It sounds like the Mass you described was not. That’s a relief. I hope that’s across the board (I have seen Pentecostals in action) but not charismatic Catholics.

I still have my reservations, in general, to the wide conveyance of one particular charism. Isn’t there a scenario where the Holy Spirit does NOT give the charism to an individual??

Also, none of the charismatic Catholics has answered my repeated question. It is a sincere question. What else, besides the obvious things that make them Catholic (that we share, belief-wise) is definitive of charismatic Catholicism?

I’d really like to know that.

 

[guanophore]

Also, none of the charismatic Catholics has answered my repeated question. It is a sincere question. What else, besides the obvious things that make them Catholic (that we share, belief-wise) is definitive of charismatic Catholicism?

I’d really like to know that.

If this is true, then you will read the posts. If it is not true, then you read the posts, and you just don’t accept the answers given. your refusal to accept will not change what is.

 

[byzgirl]

FWIW as a Charismatic I did not have the gift of tongues. So there. No one ever tried to force me to speak/pray in tongues nor was my faithfulness or salvation called into question.

Okay, but if you didn’t get the gift (from the Holy Spirit), then no one has the ability to ‘force you to speak or pray in tongues’, right?

You wrote: The manifestation of the other gifts and using them to minister to the church. Consider how the gifts of faith or healing, wisdom or knowledge could build up the church.

Is this the answer to ‘what else the charismatic means’ for Charismatic Catholics that I’ve been seeking? I’d have to respond that, as Christians, we are all given certain charisms, and do not have to be ‘charismatics’ in the ‘movement sense of the word’. We are, of course, in a general sense, all charismatic, by God’s good grace.

You listed healing? That’s another that I think is given to the Church’s priesthood (in Holy Annointing/Extreme Unction), and not, necessarily, to individuals (I think it’s very seldom and far between that an individual catholic has this gift. Even then, I’d think them having to be a living saint.

It seems that charismatics tend to wanna replace the sacraments we already have, as Catholics.

Wisdom and knowledge, okay…but they are also found outside of the Charismatic Catholic movement. So, what makes Charismatic Catholics, ‘Charismatic’ besides those basic gifts that can be given to any?

In other words, are Charismatics ‘Charismatics’ because they love the tongue-speaking aspect so much? What keeps you in the midst of it when you do not possess the gift of tongues? What else attracts you to this particular brand of Catholicism?

As an Eastern Catholic (in union with the Pope), I could tell you many things that attract me to the Eastern tradition, customs, and its Liturgy. It doesn’t boast tongue-speaking, but it is the most ancient church of Catholicism.

So what else makes Charismatic (capital C) Catholics, charismatic, without tongue speaking? The other gifts, as noted, are shared with all believers.

 

[byzgirl]

I hope not. Receiving the Body and Blood of Christ comes first in any church. I call this ," the Real Presence."

God bless,
jean8

Dear Jean,

I’ve read over your post and the tone of your posts…so don’t think that I’m being argumentative…this is meant, just for others in the forum discussion (maybe even Protestant) who do not have the same understanding…

But it It may not be advisable to refer to it, as The Real Presence (thanks to Protestants misuse of the term), unless, as a Catholic you understand what that means (and I’m sure that you do).

Real Presence means different things to different faith communities. The one, holy, ‘Catholic’ and apostolic Church refers to it, by definition, as Transubstantiation. It’s is Jesus’ Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity (Incarnation). There are many Protestant communities that refer to the Real Presence, but only mean that Jesus is symbolically present. Lutherans say they believe in Real Presence, but their belief can be defined as Consubstantiation, and is not the same (it’s a heretical belief).

I once had an ‘nice’ disagreement with my best friend (a Lutheran) because she didn’t understand that ‘Real Presence’ didn’t mean the same thing to us as it does to her, and was insulted when her mother asked if she could receive our communion, and I responded (kindly), that she could not.

None of us can get any closer to our Savior than in receiving HIm in the Eucharist!!!).

I should hope that Charismatic catholics do not start to mimic Pentecostal Protestants in their heretical understanding of the Eucharist, and it’s lowering of importance and heretical misunderstanding.

Real Presence is what we mean (He’s really present…body and blood, soul and divinity)…but it’s NOT what Protestants mean when they use the same term.

That’s just FYI.

God bless you!

 

[guanophore]

FWIW as a Charismatic I did not have the gift of tongues. So there. No one ever tried to force me to speak/pray in tongues nor was my faithfulness or salvation called into question.

Okay, but if you didn’t get the gift (from the Holy Spirit), then no one has the ability to ‘force you to speak or pray in tongues’, right?

Is this what happened to you? Is that why you are so resistant to the authenticity of this spiritual practice?

The manifestation of the other gifts and using them to minister to the church. Consider how the gifts of faith or healing, wisdom or knowledge could build up the church.

Is this the answer to ‘what else the charismatic means’ for Charismatic Catholics that I’ve been seeking?

It is one that was given to you.

I’d have to respond that, as Christians, we are all given certain charisms, and do not have to be ‘charismatics’ in the ‘movement sense of the word’. We are, of course, in a general sense, all charismatic, by God’s good grace.

I agree. That is why I said Catholicism is charismatic. It is God’s intention that we be filled with the Spirit, walk in the Spirit, and use the gifts he has given us daily to build our own faith and the Church. The charisms in the book of Corinthians are to be used for this purpose.

You listed healing? That’s another that I think is given to the Church’s priesthood (in Holy Annointing/Extreme Unction), and not, necessarily, to individuals (I think it’s very seldom and far between that an individual catholic has this gift. Even then, I’d think them having to be a living saint.

Well…we see it differently. Of course the sacrament of Holy Annointing is reserved for the priest. But God is not bound by the sacrament, and can heal anyone, anywhere. There are many lay persons with a powerful gift of healing.

It seems that charismatics tend to wanna replace the sacraments we already have, as Catholics.

Yes, I understand that apparently this has been your experience and your perception from whomever it was you have been exposed. Sounds like your attitudes have been contaminated by Pentecostalism.

Wisdom and knowledge, okay.......but they are also found outside of the Charismatic Catholic movement.  So, what makes Charismatic Catholics, 'Charismatic' besides those basic gifts that can be given to any?

The charismatic gifts ARE the basic gifts that can be given to any.

In other words, are Charismatics 'Charismatics' because they love the tongue-speaking aspect so much?

No, but it helps a lot!

What keeps you in the midst of it when you do not possess the gift of tongues? What else attracts you to this particular brand of Catholicism?

That people live out the gifts daily, a life of expectant faith, zeal for the word of God, evangelism, being light and salt in the world. When the HS is active and expressive in a Christian’s life, they are like a magnet to others. Others see their life, and want what they have. This is the kind of authentic Catholic living that brought me back.

As an Eastern Catholic (in union with the Pope), I could tell you many things that attract me to the Eastern tradition, customs, and its Liturgy. It doesn’t boast tongue-speaking, but it is the most ancient church of Catholicism.

The charism of tongues was never suppressed in the Eastern Church as it was in the West. I agree about the traditions, customs and liturgy. The Latins are also unfamiliar with the Philokalia, by and large.

So what else makes Charismatic (capital C) Catholics, charismatic, without tongue speaking?  The other gifts, as noted, are shared with all believers.

Not all believers live a lifestyle that daily manifests the gifts. That is the main difference I see.

 

[juliamajor]

Speaking in ecstatic tongues is not new- has been around a very long time(remember Saul meeting with ecstatics and then speaking in ecstasy?“is Saul now among the prophets”.So it’s not NT only.Saints have often been noted for the ecstasies(not silence).Many were considered suspect because of them(Teresa of Avila comes to mind) . Tongues is not my charism nor have I ever been told I require it or need it or it’s necessary for salvation.That’s silly. My best friend prays in it and it’s a one of cutting off the world for a few minutes and having a one on one experience with the Lord without having to remove yourself to a quiet spot.Doesn’t it bug you to be told as a Byzantine catholic that “your spirituality” isn’t as good- or as sound as Latin is? Same here . It bugs Charismatics that their
spiritual view is suspect. Apparently it’s suspect to a lot except the Pope.Good thing he is the Vicar of Christ and none of the judgmental and narrow minded folks that I’ve seen.Thank God we have a hierarchy. As for the Eucharist- Charismatics are devoted to it and to say it is not our source and apex along with the Mass is a lie and really insulting. We have small charismatic group .We’ve accomplished much -getting Eucharistic adoration(the pastor didn’t want it)we bought a monstrance (forced his hand!)-set up sick visitations,promoted seminars of prayer and Vatican documents and other gifts without once telling anyone we were charismatics. We are very much in the background- keep our mouths shut and get the job done-because we are afraid that if we make our presence known- whatever program we promote- will be in danger because some folks treat us with suspicion and disdain.We never force anything(unlike our music ministry ) or draw attention to ourselves.We want Jesus to be the focal point- we want His Church and His sacraments to be the focus. If we get together and do our Charismatic thing -does that make us evil because we don’t do the same thing as you?Does God really want us to be uniform- worshiping in one way only-loving God and expressing that love in one way only?It’ll be a sad day when people express their love of God in a manner that satisfies people alone.