Speaking in Tongues

[guanophore]

So, respectfully, what’s the difference between the Sacramental healing (of the Annointing of the Sick) and the type that occurs during charismatic prayer meetings? Of course, the final ‘healing’ may occur, for both, but I’m asking where the difference lies (besides one being conducted by a priest and the other not).

Not having had studies for Holy Orders, I can only go from what I have learned as a layperson. It is my understanding that the Rite of Annointing contains the remission of sins. There are some sicknesses that emanate from mortal sin or demonic influence that only respond to the grace dispensed in the sacrament:

James 5:14-16
14 Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up; and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed.

The reason that the elders (priests) must be called is that they are able to hear confession, and forgive mortal sins.

In a prayer meeting, we can confess our sins, and pray for one another, but if it is a mortal sin, it requires the sacrament.

1 John 5:15-17
16 If you see your brother or sister committing what is not a mortal sin, you will ask, and God will give life to such a one — to those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin that is mortal; I do not say that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not mortal.

As laypeople, we can help one another with our wrongdoings, and to live a more godly life. But a person who is in mortal sin needs the sacrament. Praying about it will not reach it. Now, it is possible that a person may make a perfect confession, and be healed without the sacrament, because God is not bound by the sacrament. However, it is better not to wonder!

I’m just asking, because I want to understand how that doesn’t undermine the Sacramental way to healing…when it can be bypassed for another?

I think it is a good question, but I don’t think the sacraments can be “bypassed”. God has ordained certain persons for certain gifts. He instructs us to avail ourselves of these gifts.

I am a believer in the fact that God has given priests a power that he has given to no one else “in the order of Melkezidek”.

Yes.

And that the purpose of the priesthood is, mainly, the dispensing of God’s Sacraments (His way of conveying grace). And I do believe that God intended the Church to do that work (via the succession of the Apostles and the laying of hands).

The laypeople are not excluded from the work of the ministry. There is much that we can do that is non-sacramental.

It just confuses me…if that’s the chosen way (as Catholics we believe this)…that grace is conveyed (through the priest)…which is biblical…then how do these two forms of (unequal) healing requests, co-exist harmoniously?..without one stepping on the other.

The dispensation of God’s grace is not confined to the Sacraments. We can be assured of receiving it there, but it can be available in other ways as well.

Maybe I’m confusing the issue, and it’s not as if I don’t believe that love exists in and outside of the Church and its Magesterium, and that the love and faith of Christans cannot result in miraculous intervention…it’s just that I do not really understand how this doesn’t effect the Sacramental way of conveying grace.

I don’t see how it can, really. There is no substitute for the sacramental way of receiving grace.

This is an example of my cynicism toward what Charismatics do and how they do it.

OK.

 

[byzgirl]

I think that Catholic Spirituality has become largely devoid of emotional and spontaneous expression, and that is why there is such a running off to superficial faith expereinces. People want to get excited about their faith, and want to believe that the things written in scripture can be true for them. When I left the Church in high school, it was because I was approached by other teens who were zealous about their faith. The brought their bibles to school, and had prayer meetings. I never knew how to make a spontaneous prayer, I only knew memorized prayers. One of the greatest gifts of the Pentecostal movement for me, aside from instilling in me a love of scripture, was how to pray spontaneously.

Yes, this kind of emotional lacking or experience is what often causes Catholics to embrace a “relationship” with Christ outside of the Church (often, with zealous Evangelicals).

However, as we all know “emotional experience” is not equal with “faith”, but sometimes, a result of having a relationship with Christ and experiencing epiphanies and conversions of the heart. It is truly most complete, in the Catholic Church, and it’s not as if we haven’t had many saints who have had profound faith (with associated emotional experiences) in the sacredness of the Liturgy…sometimes in the quiet…while in prayer, alone…standing or kneeling quietly before the cross or during Eucharistic adoration.

For some people, emotional experience is all of it. That’s not true. We have become, as a culture (especially in America) expectant upon ‘entertainment value’ and ‘thrills’. So, it’s not surprising that some people expect this, in their life of faith. But Christ comes to people, differently and uniquely. If He wants to reach someone, He’ll do it. That is why some big-named Protestants and former anti-Catholics are now, also, Catholics…and even some of our very top apologists.

If emotional experience was the same as ‘having faith’, then we’d have a tough time in explaining all of the converts to the Catholic Church (including some very zealous and intelligent Protestants…from all faith backgrounds, including a lot of Evangelicals).

These converts knew there was something missing. They had all the excitement they could handle, but without the fullness of Truth and the missing Sacraments (the Eucharist, Reconciliation, Baptism, etc.) they were still seeking.
I am a very passionate person, and very emotional…and I found a deeper relationship within Eastern Catholicism, but I have had many ‘epiphanies’ throughout my life (I was raised a Roman Catholic).

I just think that there a lot of people who are

1. poorly catechized
2. do not meet with other Catholics with zeal and enthusiasm
3. that we desparately need to incorporate APOLOGETICS into our catechetical lessons and train our catechists better
4. We NEED Catholic bible studies in every single parish
5. We need better, more involved youth programs…activities (Evangelicals are very good in this area).
6. A much deeper, more profound understanding of our prayers (their beauty and history), the Church’s history/the Early Church Fathers, writings and lives of the Saints, a MUCH more thorough understanding of the Liturgy (part by part…how it relates to the Incarnational Christ…the Liturgy of the Word and the Sacrifice of the altar. Nothing has changed…it’s just that Catholics need a HIGH DOSE of the excitement that is really found in the Liturgy and the rubrics (it’s there, we just have to show nominal Catholics and others, it’s reality…it’s beauty…it’s relationship to them, as christian originals!

and probably some other tweaking…especially in mission work (although I’m not knowledgable enough to make comments on what needs done in that area).

I’m very hopeful, with the latest wave of converts to the faith. I do think that we need a dose of Evangelical enthusiasm in our veins!!! But, there have always been those SAints, throughout the ages, (thinking of the parable of the Prodigal Son)…those that have always recognized the great jewel that the Church is…those that have remained in Obedience, knowing that it isn’t just a human institution, but a divine institution…and that their loyalty and friendship is always in Christ…and they knew better than to leave home.

So I embrace converts (especially Evangelical brand christians) into the fold…but I don’t think the ‘emotion’ is all there is. That is where nominal Catholics go wrong. They rightly want Christ in their lives, but they don’t see that He’s already here, in His Fullest, in the Church (especially, and most completely, in the Eucharist)!

Evangelical Christianity is ‘easy’. It has big appeal because “all one must do”, basically, is “accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior” with a Sinner’s Prayer of some sort or another (a basic Creed, if you will).

It’s sad that these nominal Catholics don’t see that, as Catholics, we already do all of this. If it’s not in your heart, it’s not the Church’s fault (exactly). But I will say that we need to change our approach to address the people who ‘need’ this sort of environment…but also give them a better knowledge of everything…from church history/early church Fathers, role modeling in the saints lives (in an exciting manner)…and better fellowship (involvement with others in the Church --parish and overall)

In other words, the Catholic Church is the one, true Church. I believe it (as expressed in our profession of faith). And, yes, it’s not just words…I mean it in my heart as well.

I just pray for Catholics…all of us…that the Holy Spirit will unite us and bring our brethren back.

 

[guanophore]

However, as we all know "emotional experience" is not equal with "faith", but sometimes, a result of having a relationship with Christ and experiencing epiphanies and conversions of the heart.  It is truly most complete, in the Catholic Church, and it's not as if we haven't had many saints who have had profound faith (with associated emotional experiences) in the sacredness of the Liturgy....sometimes in the quiet......while in prayer, alone.....standing or kneeling quietly before the cross or during Eucharistic adoration.

Yes, and these are very important. However, it is equally important to be able to shout and dance, lift up our hands with our hearts and sing joyfully. Not all of these activities are conducive to liturgical expression, would you not agree?

For some people, emotional experience is all of it. We have become, as a culture (especially in America) expectant upon ‘entertainment value’ and ‘thrills’. So, it’s not surprising that some people expect this, in their life of faith. But Christ comes to people, differently and uniquely. If He wants to reach someone, He’ll do it. That is why some big-named Protestants and former anti-Catholics are now, also, Catholics…and even some of our very top apologists.

Yes, I agree, it can be a very shallow experience of faith to be grounded in emotion. There must be a balance, where the emotional, spontaneous, and expressive forms are welcomed, but not exclusive.

If emotional experience was the same as 'having faith', then we'd have a tough time in explaining all of the converts to the Catholic Church (including some very zealous and intelligent Protestants...from all faith backgrounds, including a lot of Evangelicals).

Indeed. However, God made humans with emotional needs, and these need to be met also. One of the greatest evangelistic failures in the American Catholic communities is the inability to socialize and welcome people in Church. I have read on these forums, as well as experienced myself, people attending mass for months and never getting to know anyone, sometimes never even greeted. This is a skill much better perfected by our separated brethren.

These converts knew there was something missing. They had all the excitement they could handle, but without the fullness of Truth and the missing Sacraments (the Eucharist, Reconciliation, Baptism, etc.) they were still seeking.

And the quiet, too, I think. There are not many evangelicals that go in for meditative prayer. And of course, no contemplation with the blessed sacrament.

I am a very passionate person, and very emotional.............and I found a deeper relationship within Eastern Catholicism, but I have had many 'epiphanies' throughout my life (I was raised a Roman Catholic).

Yes, it is the same for me. I find the Byzantine experience profound,a nd having been disgusted with liturgical abuses in the Latin Rite, have learned to appreciate Liturgy differently since returning.

I just think that there a lot of people who are

1. poorly catechized
2. do not meet with other Catholics with zeal and enthusiasm
3. that we desparately need to incorporate APOLOGETICS into our catechetical lessons and train our catechists better
4. We NEED Catholic bible studies in every single parish
5. We need better, more involved youth programs…activities (Evangelicals are very good in this area).
6. A much deeper, more profound understanding of our prayers (their beauty and history), the Church’s history/the Early Church Fathers, writings and lives of the Saints, a MUCH more thorough understanding of the Liturgy (part by part…how it relates to the Incarnational Christ…the Liturgy of the Word and the Sacrifice of the altar. Nothing has changed…it’s just that Catholics need a HIGH DOSE of the excitement that is really found in the Liturgy and the rubrics (it’s there, we just have to show nominal Catholics and others, it’s reality…it’s beauty…it’s relationship to them, as christian originals!

and probably some other tweaking…especially in mission work (although I’m not knowledgable enough to make comments on what needs done in that area).

Sounds like you are ready to start a prayer group. you have all your first topics lined up for the lessons. Get you some speakers, and have at it!

But, there have always been those SAints, throughout the ages, (thinking of the parable of the Prodigal Son)....those that have always recognized the great jewel that the Church is....those that have remained in Obedience, knowing that it isn't just a human institution, but a divine institution...and that their loyalty and friendship is always in Christ...............and they knew better than to leave home.

If charismatics follow this principle, then there will be order.

  That is where nominal Catholics go wrong.  They rightly want Christ in their lives, but they don't see that He's already here, in His Fullest, in the Church (especially, and most completely, in the Eucharist)!

This is what the Life in the Spirit Seminar is for - to teach them to turn on the switch.

but also give them a better knowledge of everything…from church history/early church Fathers, role modeling in the saints lives (in an exciting manner)…and better fellowship (involvement with others in the Church --parish and overall)

Well get goin’ there, byzgirl!

I just pray for Catholics...............all of us.............that the Holy Spirit will unite us and bring our brethren back.

Had you considered you may be called tomore than prayer?

 

[byzgirl]

The dispensation of God’s grace is not confined to the Sacraments. We can be assured of receiving it there, but it can be available in other ways as well.

“confined” may not be a good word. That makes it sound restrictive. It’s good to be reminded that, as Catholics, it is believed that God CHOSE to administer the Sacraments through the Church.

This sort of view of the priesthood (you’re okay, as long as you are agreeable and sort of stay out of the way…don’t cause friction) and 'well, we can get Sacraments…they’re there if we want them…but (yawn)…we can also provide them, ourselves"…is what I don’t think exactly orthodox and right.

It still hasn’t been explained, how Charismatics view the ‘special’ laying of hands that a priest receives (the purpose of his, again, ‘special’ ability to dispense Sacraments). I’m hearing "they co-exist, sometimes with trouble and sometimes not, and 'we know they’re there…but I’m not hearing what the belief is. They are not equal, and Christ did, again CHOOSE the Church (and its bishops and priests) as the primary source to dispense these gifts (thus, Apostolic succession and the laying on of hands). It is MORE than the ordinary, and more than what laypersons are given.

Protestants do a lot of this type of activity, and self-ordain…but it is not valid. It’s not to say that they don’t receive gifts from God, but it is NOT the same as that special ordination, via the Church (the laying of hands by a Catholic bishop). Not the same, and not on equal standing (in God’s eyes).

 

[byzgirl]

Not having had studies for Holy Orders, I can only go from what I have learned as a layperson. It is my understanding that the Rite of Annointing contains the remission of sins. There are some sicknesses that emanate from mortal sin or demonic influence that only respond to the grace dispensed in the sacrament:

James 5:14-16
14 Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up; and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed.

The reason that the elders (priests) must be called is that they are able to hear confession, and forgive mortal sins.

In a prayer meeting, we can confess our sins, and pray for one another, but if it is a mortal sin, it requires the sacrament.

1 John 5:15-17
16 If you see your brother or sister committing what is not a mortal sin, you will ask, and God will give life to such a one — to those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin that is mortal; I do not say that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not mortal.

As laypeople, we can help one another with our wrongdoings, and to live a more godly life. But a person who is in mortal sin needs the sacrament. Praying about it will not reach it. Now, it is possible that a person may make a perfect confession, and be healed without the sacrament, because God is not bound by the sacrament. However, it is better not to wonder!

I think it is a good question, but I don’t think the sacraments can be “bypassed”. God has ordained certain persons for certain gifts. He instructs us to avail ourselves of these gifts.

Yes.

The laypeople are not excluded from the work of the ministry. There is much that we can do that is non-sacramental.

The dispensation of God’s grace is not confined to the Sacraments. We can be assured of receiving it there, but it can be available in other ways as well.

I don’t see how it can, really. There is no substitute for the sacramental way of receiving grace.

OK.

Thank you. I’m getting a better picture with your responses here. I appreciate that you took each of my many questions, and answered each of them, without being defensive. I’m getting a better picture from this.

 

[byzgirl]

Dear “Guanophore”

You answered some of my questions, well, of Sacramental grace.

I’d still like to hear of what you think regarding my reservations regarding the tendency toward faith=emotion thinking (see my above posts, but don’t worry about the Sacramental/priesthood questions…I think they have been answered to my satisfaction (I am getting it, and not having a problem with what I’m hearing).

Thank you.

 

[Philthy]

I recently heard Fr. Corapi describing resting in the spirit happening to him in one of his talks that aired recently. It was a very powerful experience for him.

I’ll try and describe my personal experience with resting in the Spirit - only because much of what “The Falling Phenomenon” article suggests wasn’t part of my experience (though I dont doubt the truth of it for many).
I attended a 7 week, weekly group meeting where members of our parish learned about various topics related to the Holy Spirit. One of our Parish priests was present for all of them. The meetings culminated in a Mass where we also received a Sacramental (oil) and were prayed over. The primary gift of the Spirit that I remember anticipating was the gift of tongues. I was very defensive about the topic because, like Byzgirl, I had heard some bad things about non-Catholic groups and a lot of craziness. We all prayed heavily during the week leading up to the final Mass. I was praying for some of the people who were in my small group and they were praying for me as well. I had basically resolved in my prayer time that if I didnt receive the gift of tongues I was content with the many blessings that God had given me in life - most especially the gift of faith. Im pretty sure I fealt resolved that I wasnt going to be receiving any such gift - and I was perfectly fine with it! Well, the day rolled around for the big Mass. My work day was incredibly busy - I missed lunch and dinner and had a migraine! I had no time to change from my work clothes (sportcoat, tie, etc) and was late getting there. I really couldnt believe that this is how it was gonna go down - me feeling horrible and not really up for it. Everyone was singing and I wanted to simply sneak in to the back with my wife, but one of the instructors informed me -as I attempted to enter his row - that you had to stay with your group. My group, of course, was in the front pew! I immediately decided I’d go to the outside of the aisle rather than dead center. As I attempted to weasel my way in I noticed the woman on the end was lost in tears…I really couldnt interupt her to make room for me to sit down. Some people motioned to me - with smiles, of course, to sit…in the front center! What could I do but comply. At this point I caught a glimpse of an icon of the sacred heart and I somehow decided to make this the focus of my prayers. I held my hands much like you do when receiving Communion, but I held them against my chest as a physical gesture to open my heart to God. That was my prayer. “I open my heart to you” and stuck with it the whole time. I hate being the “first in line” so to speak because Im not a good listener and I basically hate following unwritten directions. I knew there was gonna be some sort of format and I just wanted to concentrate on “opening my heart” and nothing else. The time came for the blessing, and I was confused over whether we were gonna be prayed over or whatever immediately the blessing or if I was supposed to return to my pew or whatever - I didnt want to be bothered by such distractions! As “fate” would have it, I was the first in line for the oil Sacramental, and I vaguely remember approaching with my hands offering my heart and my Priest making the sign of the Cross on my head and I felt…weird…like something was happening but I wasnt sure what. One of the instructors simply said, “Relax Phil, its the holy Spirit” and I remember consciously thinking, “what does he mean relax - I feel fine”. But as I was thinking that thought I started falling backwards. I ended up laying on the floor and felt a number of experiences. The important point, however, is that I had no expectation of any such event occuring. I was still thinking that I was going to be prayed over and that that would be the time I might speak in tongues or whatever. I remained where I was for some time perfectly comfortable and at peace. I was tempted to believe it wasnt a genuine experience. I also felt an incredibel closeness to all the people that I had been praying for and our Priest. Many other people had a relatively common experience, but none of them were the first to go and none in the state of mind I was in and without any expectations. I simply had no conscious expectation of any such event.

 

[guanophore]

I’ll try and describe my personal experience with resting in the Spirit - only because much of what “The Falling Phenomenon” article suggests wasn’t part of my experience (though I dont doubt the truth of it for many).
I attended a 7 week, weekly group meeting where members of our parish learned about various topics related to the Holy Spirit. One of our Parish priests was present for all of them. The meetings culminated in a Mass where we also received a Sacramental (oil) and were prayed over. The primary gift of the Spirit that I remember anticipating was the gift of tongues. I was very defensive about the topic because, like Byzgirl, I had heard some bad things about non-Catholic groups and a lot of craziness. We all prayed heavily during the week leading up to the final Mass. I was praying for some of the people who were in my small group and they were praying for me as well. I had basically resolved in my prayer time that if I didnt receive the gift of tongues I was content with the many blessings that God had given me in life - most especially the gift of faith. Im pretty sure I fealt resolved that I wasnt going to be receiving any such gift - and I was perfectly fine with it! Well, the day rolled around for the big Mass. My work day was incredibly busy - I missed lunch and dinner and had a migraine! I had no time to change from my work clothes (sportcoat, tie, etc) and was late getting there. I really couldnt believe that this is how it was gonna go down - me feeling horrible and not really up for it. Everyone was singing and I wanted to simply sneak in to the back with my wife, but one of the instructors informed me -as I attempted to enter his row - that you had to stay with your group. My group, of course, was in the front pew! I immediately decided I’d go to the outside of the aisle rather than dead center. As I attempted to weasel my way in I noticed the woman on the end was lost in tears…I really couldnt interupt her to make room for me to sit down. Some people motioned to me - with smiles, of course, to sit…in the front center! What could I do but comply. At this point I caught a glimpse of an icon of the sacred heart and I somehow decided to make this the focus of my prayers. I held my hands much like you do when receiving Communion, but I held them against my chest as a physical gesture to open my heart to God. That was my prayer. “I open my heart to you” and stuck with it the whole time. I hate being the “first in line” so to speak because Im not a good listener and I basically hate following unwritten directions. I knew there was gonna be some sort of format and I just wanted to concentrate on “opening my heart” and nothing else. The time came for the blessing, and I was confused over whether we were gonna be prayed over or whatever immediately the blessing or if I was supposed to return to my pew or whatever - I didnt want to be bothered by such distractions! As “fate” would have it, I was the first in line for the oil Sacramental, and I vaguely remember approaching with my hands offering my heart and my Priest making the sign of the Cross on my head and I felt…weird…like something was happening but I wasnt sure what. One of the instructors simply said, “Relax Phil, its the holy Spirit” and I remember consciously thinking, “what does he mean relax - I feel fine”. But as I was thinking that thought I started falling backwards. I ended up laying on the floor and felt a number of experiences. The important point, however, is that I had no expectation of any such event occuring. I was still thinking that I was going to be prayed over and that that would be the time I might speak in tongues or whatever. I remained where I was for some time perfectly comfortable and at peace. I was tempted to believe it wasnt a genuine experience. I also felt an incredibel closeness to all the people that I had been praying for and our Priest. Many other people had a relatively common experience, but none of them were the first to go and none in the state of mind I was in and without any expectations. I simply had no conscious expectation of any such event.

What a beautiful testimony Philthy! I got all choked up reading that. I would disagree, though, that you had “no expectations”. You had, on the contrary, the perfect expectation! this is how all of us should approach all the sacraments.

In my experience there are rarely prayers of this kind without “catchers”, since so many people fall down. It is easier to sit them in a chair first, so if they slump over, they do not hurt themselves. However, when there are hundreds of people, and father is just making the sign of the cross with oil on them, sometimes they have to be laid out on the floor like so many strips of bacon.

It is as if time stops, and one is acutely present to the trascendent nature of God. I have seen people lie there for 45 minutes before “coming to” so to speak. It is also not uncommon for a person to receive the annointing then go back to their room and lie down, and have it continue.

I did not understand this until I got into the ocean, which was really only recently. I did what my friends told me one should not do (a rookie ocean swimmer as I was). I turned my back and allowed the waves to lift me. It was not until after that experience that I realized the feeling I have had when praying over others was very similar. It feels like waves of energy flowing through and around.

I once was standing in a circle of prayer ministers holding hands. One of my hands got so hot it felt like it was on fire. I finally had to open my eyes and look down, and fully expected to see the hand I was holding red hot like an iron, but it was not. Once I put my hands on a brother’s neck/shoulders, and later he told me it felt like someone had applied an ice pack.

 

[byzgirl]

Not to venture off subject, but has anyone seen this?

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/35_EWTN.pdf

I was searching for information about Fr. Corapi’s experience (I wanted to read about it). I like him a lot.

Anyhow, I came across this poisonous pdf file…written by very venemous Traditional Catholics (Traditional in that they are schismatic anti-Vatican II folks)…

They are meaner than can be. It speaks about the Charismatic Movement and EWTN’s witness (negatively, of course).

I loathe the Holy Family Monastery’s nastiness. Their web site puts out a LOT of information and advertisements. They reach a lot of people…

I wish there were MORE debates and responses to these ‘monks’ (I suppose). Very angry and misguided people.

I can’t imagine such hostility toward people like Mother Angelica…and being able to think yourself as being Christ-like.

 

[guanophore]

Not to venture off subject, but has anyone seen this?

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/35_EWTN.pdf

I was searching for information about Fr. Corapi’s experience (I wanted to read about it). I like him a lot.

Anyhow, I came across this poisonous pdf file…written by very venemous Traditional Catholics (Traditional in that they are schismatic anti-Vatican II folks)…

They are meaner than can be. It speaks about the Charismatic Movement and EWTN’s witness (negatively, of course).

I loathe the Holy Family Monastery’s nastiness. Their web site puts out a LOT of information and advertisements. They reach a lot of people…

I wish there were MORE debates and responses to these ‘monks’ (I suppose). Very angry and misguided people.

I can’t imagine such hostility toward people like Mother Angelica…and being able to think yourself as being Christ-like.

I am sorry that you got some of the fallout from my brushes with these folks. I already had my prickles up from run ins with them. That is why I think I got off to a defensive start with you. After trying to share charitably with them, one can find oneself rather crispy.

I don’t think you can get Fr. Corapi unless you get his recordings which must be ordered off the website. I should start recording them off the radio so I can listen to them again. His series on the catechism is awesome.

 

[byzgirl]

I am sorry that you got some of the fallout from my brushes with these folks. I already had my prickles up from run ins with them. That is why I think I got off to a defensive start with you. After trying to share charitably with them, one can find oneself rather crispy.

I don’t think you can get Fr. Corapi unless you get his recordings which must be ordered off the website. I should start recording them off the radio so I can listen to them again. His series on the catechism is awesome.

My mother is another huge fan of his (Father Corapi’s). We sort of appreciate his style of “fire and brimstone” warnings! He doesn’t take the light approach to anything. While it scares the bejiggers out of us, we are big fans, and appreciate his message (and think, despite the fear factor, that he’s ‘dead-on’ in most of his messages).

I heard he was sick, and hope he is doing well.

Anyhow, I started another thread on the Most Holy Family Monastery. I think that I’m about done with my questions for this thread.

You were very helpful (even with the rough start, Guanophore) in helping me gain some fuller understanding.

I’ll see you around the forum!

God bless, guide and keep you.

Slava Isusu Christu! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!

from the Byzantine Girl

P.S. Don’t forget to pray for me during your Charismatic prayer meetings (my first name is Rachel).

 

[Cs6153]

No, it’s not because it ‘doesn’t fit normal behavior’.

My questioning was regarding:

1. Baptism of the Holy Spirit. In Pentecostal circles, this baptism --(sometimes considered essential, and other times, non-essential for salvation)–replaces the Catholic baptism with water. How do Charismatic Catholics view this Baptism of the Holy Spirit? I’m assuming that they do NOT feel that it is necessary for salvation, but that water/spirit baptism is.
2. Resting in the Spirit. I asked what it was, and whether or not it was a Pentecostal term. What’s it’s history…bibical and otherwise?
3. I asked if a priest presides over charismatic events and if he is the one who initiates the receipt of the Spirit. If not, does this tend toward the Protestant belief of ‘the priesthood of all believers’ and take away from the Catholic understanding of the priest’s place, as Christ, in healing, forgiving, etc. Stating that “We are
   Royal priesthood, a Holy Nation- a people set apart”, isn’t contradictory to Catholicism, but, among Protestants, it’s a way to deny the importance of the ministerial priesthood. Again, where does the priest fit into this?

These are questions I’m seeking to have answered. I’m trying to get the big picture.

My boyfriend is a Pentacostal. I attended a few prayer services at his church.

They have water baptism .They believe someone can be baptised once they reached the age of 12 or older. They also believe in baptisim by full immersion only. It is only symbolic to them. They do not believe that it forgives sins or is required. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a physical sign the Holy Spirit is in you in a speical way thats why they are so into speaking in tounges. It is not necessary but encouraged. Catholic Charismatics do not view baptism of the spirit as a sacrement but as a special gift given by God.

At a prayer service they all speak in different languages at once they pray loud, sob, kneel throw hands in the air sing do whatever they feel compelled to do. I do not know if they a speaking a language they already know or if its a language they do not know. I hear Latin, Hebrew, Hispanic languages.

Resting in the Spirit is a Catholic term Slain in the Spirit is the Pentacostal term. Same meaning fainting because you are so into Jesus. I think thats what it means. I have been to Masses where they have anointing of the sick and most Masses they have you sit and the priest anoints you. I have been to ones where you stand and if you stand two people stand with you to hold you up because people have fainted during the administration of the sacrament.

Charismatic events should be done within the outlines of catholic teaching and I would assume with guidance of the priests. But you do not need to have a priest to pray over you each time you pray for the Holy Spirit to administer certain gifts that you request.

 

[guanophore]

Catholic Charismatics do not view baptism of the spirit as a sacrement but as a special gift given by God.

You are wrong, Cs. Catholics believe that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit in baptism and confirmation. The Apostles taught that there was no separation between the water and the Spirit. Jesus commanded that we must be “born again of water and Spirit”. This is baptism, a sacrament, in which we receive the Holy Spirit.

Resting in the Spirit is a Catholic term Slain in the Spirit is the Pentacostal term.  Same meaning fainting because you are so into Jesus.  I think thats what it means.

No, it is not 'fainting". Persons who faint lose consciousness. When one is resting in the Spirit, one is just more conscious to the supernatural than they are to the natural.

I have been to Masses where they have anointing of the sick and most Masses they have you sit and the priest anoints you.  I have been to ones where you stand and if you stand two people stand with you to hold you up because people have fainted during the administration of the sacrament.

I can agree with your description, except that it is not “fainting”. The power of God overshadows the body’s ability to hold itself up, and the person relaxes entirely. However, one is aware, and is able to resist it if they choose. When one faints, this is not the case.

Charismatic events should be done within the outlines of catholic teaching and I would assume with guidance of the priests. But you do not need to have a priest to pray over you each time you pray for the Holy Spirit to administer certain gifts that you request.

I hope that you will do some study on this, Cs.

 

[po18guy]

I, too, had an experience much like Philthy’s during a “Life in the Spirit” seminar. I first had to be convinced by DW to even attend, since the whole Spirit thing was unknown to me. As I learned more, my apprehension only increased and I was afraid of looking like a fool. I was unsure of just what would happen. When the night came, I remember consciously making myself submit to the Lord and asking that His will be done. It was a bit of work to let go of the self and become available to God. Just like the others, I ended up on the floor, not caring one bit about what anyone thought at that point. I did not exhibit the gift of tongues and have never spoken a single syllable in a tongue. I did have a different gift “released” that served my intended role exactly.

What I know is that this experience absolutely accelerated my faith life. Prayer became much more profound and included the Spirit when He willed it. During intercessory prayer before Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, I saw minor miracles of healing. I received direction and I completely lost my fear of speaking about my faith.

Saint Paul wrote much about charisms and spoke in tongues, but advised that the gift of prophecy was much to be preferred, as it was for the building up of the Church (1 Corinthians 12, 1 Corinthians 14).

Still not a single word in a tongue, though.

 

[guanophore]

I, too, had an experience much like Philthy’s during a “Life in the Spirit” seminar. I first had to be convinced by DW to even attend, since the whole Spirit thing was unknown to me. As I learned more, my apprehension only increased and I was afraid of looking like a fool. I was unsure of just what would happen. When the night came, I remember consciously making myself submit to the Lord and asking that His will be done. It was a bit of work to let go of the self and become available to God. Just like the others, I ended up on the floor, not caring one bit about what anyone thought at that point. I did not exhibit the gift of tongues and have never spoken a single syllable in a tongue. I did have a different gift “released” that served my intended role exactly.

What I know is that this experience absolutely accelerated my faith life. Prayer became much more profound and included the Spirit when He willed it. During intercessory prayer before Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, I saw minor miracles of healing. I received direction and I completely lost my fear of speaking about my faith.

Saint Paul wrote much about charisms and spoke in tongues, but advised that the gift of prophecy was much to be preferred, as it was for the building up of the Church (1 Corinthians 12, 1 Corinthians 14).

Still not a single word in a tongue, though.

Awesome! St. Paul also writes that tongues is the “least” of the gifts. It is a puzzle why it seems to be the one that gets the most attention.

 

[JamesG]

Awesome! St. Paul also writes that tongues is the “least” of the gifts. It is a puzzle why it seems to be the one that gets the most attention.

Paul writes this because isn’t required for salvation. Tongues is just a tool of communication that helps people who don’t believe in Christ understand in their own language. If people put to much attention to it they are mistaken.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

FWIW as a Charismatic I did not have the gift of tongues. So there. No one ever tried to force me to speak/pray in tongues nor was my faithfulness or salvation called into question.

Okay, but if you didn’t get the gift (from the Holy Spirit), then no one has the ability

to ‘force you to speak or pray in tongues’, right?That was in reference to the other part regarding salvation, that there was no suggestion (by the groups I was in) that I did not have the Holy Spirit. No one was hounding me trying to get me to ask for the gift, no one was praying for it on my behalf (at least not in an obvious, obsessive way) like my salvation depended on it.

You wrote: The manifestation of the other gifts and using them to minister to the church. Consider how the gifts of faith or healing, wisdom or knowledge could build up the church.

Is this the answer to ‘what else the charismatic means’ for Charismatic Catholics that I’ve been seeking? I’d have to respond that, as Christians, we are all given certain charisms, and do not have to be ‘charismatics’ in the ‘movement sense of the word’. We are, of course, in a general sense, all charismatic, by God’s good grace.

I was referring to the Charismatic gifts specifically:
wisdom, knowledge, Discernment, tongues, Interpretation of tongues, prophecy, faith, miracles, healing. It is true that there are other charisms (religious orders have specific charisms) but that was not what I was referring to.

You listed healing? That’s another that I think is given to the Church’s priesthood (in Holy Annointing/Extreme Unction), and not, necessarily, to individuals (I think it’s very seldom and far between that an individual catholic has this gift. Even then, I’d think them having to be a living saint.

I don’t know that many that have that gift, I knew someone that did.

It seems that charismatics tend to wanna replace the sacraments we already have, as Catholics.

No thoughtful Charismatic Catholic wants this. Much of my adult formation began via a Charismatic prayer group and the gifts didn’t upstage the sacraments at all. Confession and daily Mass were encouraged. The gift of Healing is not the same as Annointing of the Sick I would want the Sacrament before the charismatic gift if I was in danger of dying. However, there are plenty of things that need healing that the sacrament is not really appropriate for.

Wisdom and knowledge, okay…but they are also found outside of the Charismatic Catholic movement. So, what makes Charismatic Catholics, ‘Charismatic’ besides those basic gifts that can be given to any?

In other words, are Charismatics ‘Charismatics’ because they love the tongue-speaking aspect so much? What keeps you in the midst of it when you do not possess the gift of tongues? What else attracts you to this particular brand of Catholicism?

I liked the prayer. The praise, the intercession with the group. When alone, my prayer was…child like. I was always babbling (not in the “tongues” sort of way) non-stop to my Lord. If I fell short through sins and faults I was as grieved as if I had hurt my best friend and went to confession as soon as reasonably possible. For some this intimacy is acheived through more contemplative means. A more contempletive just doesn’t work as well for me.

As an Eastern Catholic (in union with the Pope), I could tell you many things that attract me to the Eastern tradition, customs, and its Liturgy. It doesn’t boast tongue-speaking, but it is the most ancient church of Catholicism.

So what else makes Charismatic (capital C) Catholics, charismatic, without tongue speaking? The other gifts, as noted, are shared with all believers.

Would it surprise you to know I love the Latin Mass and have attended Eastern Catholic liturgies when possible? I am a woman of many moods. But again it’s the prayer and gifts that are attractive to me.

I was not unfamiliar with Charismatic prayer when I saw a Charismatic mass advertised in the church bulletin. I went but sat waaaay in the back in case anything fruity happened. Not only was it not fruity but like coming home even though I saw and heard things I’d not seen or heard before. After the mass we were invited to go forward and be prayed over by the priest. I did but told God I did not want to fall down (rest in the Spirit). That was not negotiable. I’m absoluetly certain the priest knew I was a newbie, curious or whatever and when he prayed over me. I remained standing but was aware that something was different. Too personal to get into here but I’ll tell you my life the time of my confirmation was not a good one, even spiritually; I wondered if it “took”. The grace I received at my confirmation was released when that priest prayed over me.

This has been an interesting discussion for me. Something has been missing in my prayer life and I’m thinking I know what it is.

 

[guanophore]

Paul writes this because isn’t required for salvation. Tongues is just a tool of communication that helps people who don’t believe in Christ understand in their own language. If people put to much attention to it they are mistaken.

I don’t think that is why he says that. I think he says that because it is the one that seems to get the most sensationalized. I don’t think any of them are “required”, though, beneficial. He says to earnestly desire the best gifts, but people seem to seek after tongues, and it is not among the “best”. Then, there is still a more excellent way!

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Paul writes this because isn’t required for salvation. Tongues is just a tool of communication that helps people who don’t believe in Christ understand in their own language. If people put to much attention to it they are mistaken.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. None of the spiritual gifts are required for salvation.

 

[claire0202]

Recently, I had a discussion with a few people about speaking in tongues. One of them was a catholic turned Pentecostal and the other her daughter who is still catholic.

I told them that if the Holy Spirit falls upon a person and they start to speak in tongues then there is nothing wrong with it. The problem I have is when people start shooting nonsense out of their mouth, start shaking, and then through some kind of hyper delusion claim that it is a gift from the Holy Sprit. I think that when a person does that they are in fact insulting the Holy Spirit.

People who act that way are no different than the people who try to levitate in East Asia. They bounce back and forth around the room with their legs crossed thinking that they will be able to levitate. In the same way, people who speak in tongues (false nonsense tongues) are not being honest or rational.

What can I tell this woman to help her understand that her behavior is wrong?