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NDfan
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Josie I’m with you. Do you laugh or cry. I think first you laugh but then realize it’s sad the way the Gospel gets twisted.I don’t know whether toor :crying:, ok I’ll
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NDfan
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Granny right on the money
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josie_L
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:yup:
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grannymh
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NDfan
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Granny pardon me but it most certainly does. The gift of speaking in tongues is most certainly a gift of the Holy Spirit as referenced in Acts 2 and is the same gift Paul is speaking about.
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Paul then re-asserts this as a Gift of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12. Without cutting and pasting a bunch of verses please re-read 12:1-11 and I’ll just cite part of verse 10.
to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
Various kinds of tongues means precisely the ability to speak in someone’s native language just as the ability to interpret tongues means being able to interpret other languages.
I agree with you here completely but with all due respect you are quite wrong in your statements above.
PEACE
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DLClark
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josie_L
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ND Fan what do you make of this line from the Bible?:
1 Corinthians
Chapter 131 1 If I speak in human and **angelic tongues **2 but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
The language spoken by Angels, is the language and/or tongues which I believe Granny and Ckempston are refering to.
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grannymh
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Dear NDfan,
1 Corinthians 12: 1-11 lists the nine classical gifts of the Holy Spirit. Since a charismatic gift is defined as a manifestation of God’s power, obviously there are many more gifts. Definitely, the apostles were gifted in many ways at Pentecost.
In my humble opinion, your example above “Various kinds of tongues means precisely the ability to speak in someone’s native language just as the ability to interpret tongues means being able to interpret other languages.” is very different from the accepted Catholic Charismatic Renewal meaning of the gift of speaking in tongues. The chief difference is that Catholic Charismatics view the person speaking --not in someone else’s native language – but instead, the person speaking is speaking in God’s language.
My source is:
A Key to Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church
ISBN: 0-87029-033-9
by Msgr. Vincent M. Walsh
At this point, let us respectfully agree to disagree.
Blessings,
granny
Humanity is the apple of God’s eye.
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ckempston
Guest
The miracle at Pentecost is different from the gift described by Paul. For one, those at Pentecost had no need of an intepreter, as everyone understood the speaker in his or her own language. i.e. the Apostles spoke some “language of God” and whether the hearers spoke Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, or some other language/dialect, they understood what the Apostles said in their own language.
The problem is, at some point, as Paul points out, “when perfection comes, the imperfect will disappear” (i.e. speaking in tongues). I’d contend that whether you think this “Perfection” is the maturity of the church, the canonization of the Scriptures, or something else, it has indeed come and there is no longer any such ability in the church.
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grannymh
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of Christ’s spirit since this gift follows Pentecost. As for the history of tongues, I’ve got a good source with no index. I should write the author a cranky letter.
Since I originally read this book years ago, my senior moments interfere with remembering names. I think it was a fellow who abused the gift, and maybe he was thrown out for some other stuff, which caused the gifts to be put on the back burner. Nonetheless, there is evidence that the gifts did continue until early Pentecostalism–which is another story.I’ve printed out your post 24 and at my first quiet time, I will study it. The “little Pentecost” is a reading in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass after Pentecost. Come to think of it, this title may be a personal nickname given to the passage by our pastor.
Blessings,
granny
All human life is meant for eternal life.
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DLClark
Guest
What language did angles speak? All we know is that when they spoke to people in the Bible the people could undertand what they said. Sould like they spoke in the vernacular.
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josie_L
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The language is refered to as Glossalalia. And scripture plainly states that some were able to speak in such angelic tongues.
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grannymh
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Hi josie L.
I was going to reply to your first post about St. Paul referring to human and angelic tongues. It never occurred to me to think of angelic being prayer tongues. I simply liked the poetry of it. Now I see your reference to Glossalalia. My dictionary refers to an entry for "gift of tongues’ which has an off-beat definition. All very interesting.
Blessings,
granny
All human life is sacred.
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Arkguy
Guest
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak with tongues as the spirit of God gave the utterance.
They did not do this one at a time. Also when others observed the 120 in the upper room speaking with tongues, they thought they were drunk. This was not so orderly. They were joyous with their baptism of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For this promise is unto you and your children and those that are afar off as many as the Lord our God shall call.
It did not end with the first century church. It is for as many as the Lord our God shall call.
I recieved the baptism of the Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues and it is the most wonderful gift. It was not me speaking. It is truly joy unspeakable and full of Glory.
There is a baptism of the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues where there is no interpretation necessary and then there is the gift of tongues, which is one of the 9 spiritual gifts which should be interpreted by someone with the gift of interpretation of tongues. Another of the 9 spiritual gifts.
I very much respect the Catholic church in that it does not deny biblical truths even if they are not widely practiced among its members.
Many Protestant churches deny the baptism of the Holy Ghost against overwhelming evidence for it. They are not even open to truth.
They did not do this one at a time. Also when others observed the 120 in the upper room speaking with tongues, they thought they were drunk. This was not so orderly. They were joyous with their baptism of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For this promise is unto you and your children and those that are afar off as many as the Lord our God shall call.
It did not end with the first century church. It is for as many as the Lord our God shall call.
I recieved the baptism of the Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues and it is the most wonderful gift. It was not me speaking. It is truly joy unspeakable and full of Glory.
There is a baptism of the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues where there is no interpretation necessary and then there is the gift of tongues, which is one of the 9 spiritual gifts which should be interpreted by someone with the gift of interpretation of tongues. Another of the 9 spiritual gifts.
I very much respect the Catholic church in that it does not deny biblical truths even if they are not widely practiced among its members.
Many Protestant churches deny the baptism of the Holy Ghost against overwhelming evidence for it. They are not even open to truth.
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Arkguy
Guest
When that which is perfect is come is Jesus Christ. The bible also says Knowledge will cease when that which is perfect is come. So I wouldn’t use that argument for ending Speaking in Tongues in the church.
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hienieboo
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i definitely have heard ppl speaking in tongues before. i have been to a convent before
and i heard them speaking in tongues. i could never do that though. it’s amazing how
it is though. takes a lot of time to learn how to do.
and i heard them speaking in tongues. i could never do that though. it’s amazing how
it is though. takes a lot of time to learn how to do.
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Arkguy
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I never learned how to speak in tongues and it doesn’t have to take a long time. You don’t learn how to do it. It is a gift from God. Alot of times when I am worshipping and praising God, like today in my house before work, It just came over me and I started praying in tongues. Paul speaks of I will pray “In the Spirit” and I will pray with the understanding also. He talks about how sometimes we ourselves don’t know how to pray and the spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings and utterances that we don’t understand. I’m sorry I don’t have my bible with me where I am or I would be showing you chapter and verse for all this.
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4Squarebaby
Guest
At my first home church we got a few people from the local COGIC megachurch. Some asked to teach them how to speak in tongues. COGIC did more to emphasis the speaking in tongues as initial evidence then Foursquare does. There would be montly interchurch prayer services and at the service hosted by the megachurch the teaching of praying in tongue was the topic.
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grannymh
Guest
Hi DLClark,
I do a 2:00 AM hour of Eucharistic Adoration on the weekends. So this AM was perfect to start meditating on your scripture references. Of course we may have different interpretations–so we can talk about them.
I’m finding that signs, wonders, works, miracles, mighty deeds, gifts seem, at times, to be interchangeable. What seems to distinguish them is the way they are used.
Mark 16: 17-29 Mark is full of signs and miracles. My Bible has two endings to Mark plus the footnotes include ”The Freer Logion”. So I am not sure how to match up with yours. My verses 17 & 18 begin with “These signs will accompany those who believe…. In other words these are the signs of proof that the apostles are speaking God’s truth in the name of Jesus. At a small local Catholic charismatic event, a speaker talked about his “missionary” activity and quoted verse 18 “and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not harm them.” Then he told how he accidentally drank a poison which did not harm him just like the verse. He was so calm about it as if this were an ordinary thing.
John 10:25, 37-38 John is my favorite so of course I started at the beginning. Here, Jesus’ uses works or miracles as the signs that He is truly God and further more that the Father and He are one. So often Jesus’ crucial teachings are connected with Jewish feasts such as Hanukkah, the winter feast or festival which is a sign of their importance.
Acts 5: 12-16 My Bible has this heading “Signs and Wonders of the Apostles” which tells how the sick and those disturbed by unclean spirits were cured by the Apostles. I am assuming this is what you refer to as sign gifts. Am I correct? Footnotes refer to the twelve as the bulwark of the Jerusalem community because of their charismatic power to heal the sick.
At this point, I don’t see any indication that “after the Bible was written, sign gifts ceased to be used or needed.” Instead, I see these “signs and wonders” as signs of God’s mercy and love. To me, the Bible teaches us in two important ways. We have the words of Jesus and we also see His actions. Isn’t there a verse “I will not leave you orphans” and many verses that say He will continue to be with us? One of the endings of Mark in my Bible says. “Afterwards Jesus Himself, through them, sent forth from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation. Amen." – “them” as in “For the promise is made to you and your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call. Acts 2: 39. To me, there is no indication that all those far off should drop Jesus’ signs of love and mercy. The beatitudes, sermon on the mount, were meant to be acted in the future.
Acts 14: 1-3 These verses describe one of the ways the Gifts of the Holy Spirit work. Paul and Barnabas are speaking to a group of Jews and Greeks. Their basic purpose is to build up the faith of this community and to convert non-believers… In verse 3, Paul and Barnabas speak out “ boldly for the Lord. There is something more than physical healing as described in Acts 5: 12-16 above. The Lord is confirming His word about His grace through signs and wonders which occur through the hands of Paul and Barnabas. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are now present through signs and wonders in the hands of Paul and Barnabas and are to be used to build up the faith of the church community.
This is as far as I got. What do you think?
Blessings,
granny
All human life is meant for eternal life.
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