Speaking in Tongues

[DLClark]

When the word tongues is used in the plural form it refers gibberish. when it is singulare it refers to known language. Paul says this 1 Cor 12:27-31

27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

And I show you a still more excellent way.
NASU

1 Cor 14:1-5

Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. 4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, buteven more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.
NASU

12:31 should read this way,You are seeking the greating miraculous gifts Then in chapter 14 He says that phropecy is better than tongues because it edifies the whole church. Tongues are not a private prayer language for the individual. Tongues are lesser gift that prophecy. Tongues are not fro the believer but for unbeliever.
1 Cor 14:22-23
2 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
NASU

 

[cazayoux]

my mom speaks in tougues and my sister has visions

Does your mom do this in a large congregation with many others doing the same?

michel

 

[Sunflower15]

I’m saying there are no more Miraculous Gifts. Jesus certainly said the Apostles would do greater things that these, but what he meant by that, I think is open to interpretation. If you think there is still a gift of prophecy, show me a meaningful prophetic fulfillment, and not some generality like, “wickedness will increase blah blah blah.”

Sure! Fatima. To the point that JPII went to Portugal to pay his respects for saving him from the fulfillment of the “secret” of Fatima. But, how about healing miracles at Lourdes and by Padre Pio. How about Padre Pio’s prophecies? Have you read about him? Have you heard of St. Martin de Porres bilocating while in prison? Padre Pio bilocated too. How about the incorruptibles? They are even on youtube! Tell me it’s not miraculous that Padre Pio is incorrupt after being buried for 40 yrs! WOW…what do you call a miracle?

 

[DLClark]

Wait…Are you saying that no miracles have occurred since the Apostles died? You can’t possibly mean that! No healing miracles? NONE? Not even at Lourdes? The Holy Spirit simply is not being the Holy Spirit because the Apostles died & went to Heaven? Doesn’t it say in the Bible that Jesus’ disciples will be able to do even more things once the HS comes? Aren’t we His disciples?
I disagree with all caps!

My God can heal but I do not believe in the healing ideas that are shown on TV or that are talked about in churches today. A miracle if it is from God must be so miraculous that man cannot explain it othen that it must be from God. Most of what goes for miracles today is just deceptive maipulation of the masses for a desired end and are not from God. How do you know if the healing to from God or Satan? Both can do miracles you know.

 

[Sunflower15]

When the word tongues is used in the plural form it refers gibberish. when it is singulare it refers to known language. Paul says this 1 Cor 12:27-31

27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

And I show you a still more excellent way.
NASU

1 Cor 14:1-5

Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. 4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, buteven more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.
NASU

12:31 should read this way,You are seeking the greating miraculous gifts Then in chapter 14 He says that phropecy is better than tongues because it edifies the whole church. Tongues are not a private prayer language for the individual. Tongues are lesser gift that prophecy. Tongues are not fro the believer but for unbeliever.
1 Cor 14:22-23
2 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
NASU

Yes, I agree about the “higher” gifts. And, that I have had sometimes, small things. I don’t control it, though. I also wonder if that is why I don’t speak in tongues. I have no doubts about the gifts or miracles or faith…maybe that’s why I don’t get those. I do love the Charismatic Movement in the Church! Thanks to God!

 

[ckempston]

Sure! Fatima. To the point that JPII went to Portugal to pay his respects for saving him from the fulfillment of the “secret” of Fatima. But, how about healing miracles at Lourdes and by Padre Pio. How about Padre Pio’s prophecies? Have you read about him? Have you heard of St. Martin de Porres bilocating while in prison? Padre Pio bilocated too. How about the incorruptibles? They are even on youtube! Tell me it’s not miraculous that Padre Pio is incorrupt after being buried for 40 yrs! WOW…what do you call a miracle?

You can be excused for your lack of understanding. There is a difference between a miracle, and the Miraculous Gifts present in the early church. I am not denying the existence of miracles. If you have a specific one you’d like to offer up as convincing proof, please do so. I’m not going to go research your proofs for you. Please get specific if you want to support your position.

 

[cazayoux]

May I ask you and others to view this idea of “no need for the Holy Spirit’s gifts” from another perspective? When you are at liturgy or at service, is the whole time spent in silence reading? No music. No prayers. No preaching. No talking with one’s friends.

I think we need to see the distinction between the ‘Gifts of the Holy Spirit’ and the ‘Miraculous Gifts’. Tongues and prophecy are miraculous gifts … and I don’t see the groups of Catholics at a Charismatic meeting mumbling in unison as the gift of ‘tongues’.

The ‘Gifts of the Holy Spirit’ however are given to all of us to USE … so that we might produce the ‘Fruits of the Holy Spirit’.
These ‘Gifts’ are: Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding, Piety, Fear of the Lord, Counsel, and Fortitude.
The ‘Fruits’ are: charity (or love), joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, long suffering, mildness, faith, modesty, continence, and chastity.

We USE the gifts we get from the Holy Spirit to PRODUCE the fruits.

These ‘Gifts’ are alive and well today and should not be confused with the prophecy, tongues, and other miraculous gifts.

michel

 

[ckempston]

My God can heal but I do not believe in the healing ideas that are shown on TV or that are talked about in churches today. A miracle if it is from God must be so miraculous that man cannot explain it othen that it must be from God. Most of what goes for miracles today is just deceptive maipulation of the masses for a desired end and are not from God. How do you know if the healing to from God or Satan? Both can do miracles you know.

Great point. That’s why it’s important to not put too much faith in miracles, and I’d venture to guess that’s part of the reason even the Catholic church doesn’t require belief in things like Fatima.

 

[ckempston]

I think we need to see the distinction between the ‘Gifts of the Holy Spirit’ and the ‘Miraculous Gifts’. Tongues and prophecy are miraculous gifts … and I don’t see the groups of Catholics at a Charismatic meeting mumbling in unison as the gift of ‘tongues’.

The ‘Gifts of the Holy Spirit’ however are given to all of us to USE … so that we might produce the ‘Fruits of the Holy Spirit’.
These ‘Gifts’ are: Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding, Piety, Fear of the Lord, Counsel, and Fortitude.
The ‘Fruits’ are: charity (or love), joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, long suffering, mildness, faith, modesty, continence, and chastity.

We USE the gifts we get from the Holy Spirit to PRODUCE the fruits.

These ‘Gifts’ are alive and well today and should not be confused with the prophecy, tongues, and other miraculous gifts.

michel

Great explanation. I just couldn’t seem to put this in words.

 

[Sunflower15]

You can be excused for your lack of understanding. There is a difference between a miracle, and the Miraculous Gifts present in the early church. I am not denying the existence of miracles. If you have a specific one you’d like to offer up as convincing proof, please do so. I’m not going to go research your proofs for you. Please get specific if you want to support your position.

I honestly don’t understand the difference that you are making between miracles of the HS and miraculous gifts of the HS…please, be more specific. When ANYone experiences a miracle, it is a gift of the HS. [such as a healing]

 

[cazayoux]

I honestly don’t understand the difference that you are making between miracles of the HS and miraculous gifts of the HS…please, be more specific. When ANYone experiences a miracle, it is a gift of the HS. [such as a healing]

I agree that all miracles are from the Holy Spirit.
However, not all gifts of the Holy Spirit are miraculous.

There is a difference.
Consider this example.
If I said that all sedans are blue, does that mean that all blue vehicles are sedans.
No … trucks and motorcycles might be blue as well.

You say all miracles are from the Holy Spirit … agreed!
Wisdom and Counsel are two of the ‘Gifts of the Holy Spirit’, but would not be considered miraculous.

michel

 

[ckempston]

I honestly don’t understand the difference that you are making between miracles of the HS and miraculous gifts of the HS…please, be more specific. When ANYone experiences a miracle, it is a gift of the HS. [such as a healing]

Sorry I’m having a hard time getting this across. Michel seems to have explained it quite well.

 

[Sunflower15]

Great point. That’s why it’s important to not put too much faith in miracles, and I’d venture to guess that’s part of the reason even the Catholic church doesn’t require belief in things like Fatima.

I just wanted to say that it is very important to remember that the Catholic Church does NOT require belief in apparitions [such as Fatima & Lourdes], or private revelations to anyone [such as the Divine Mercy to St. Faustina]. Thanks for bringing up that point!

Also, that probably no one should have “faith” in miracles per se, but rather in the “miracle worker” and allow the possibility that in His infinite Love & Mercy, He may choose [not out of any necessity], but simply choose to intervene in our lives in an extraordinary way [miraculous].

I personally, LOVE these miracles, and can’t help but be grateful for them. Sure, some things may be self-suggestion or who knows what…but others…

One comes to mind. JPII, when he wasn’t yet a Pope, had a friend doctor who was diagnosed with cancer and no treatment seemed to work. JPII wrote a letter to Padre Pio and insisted on someone personally delivering it to him. When the letter was read to Padre Pio, he said that the author of the letter [JPII] was very important [fore-shadowing his papacy maybe?] and prayed for the lady doctor. She was suddenly healed. To the point that she [not knowing anything about Padre Pio’s intercession] began to think maybe they had misdiagnosed her…but the medical records were quite clear! Many years later, she goes to see Padre Pio saying Mass, and as he walks by her, though he had never seen her, stops and faces her to say “I see you are healthy now!” Is this a case of prophecy: JPII becoming a Pope…and of the works of healing in the case of the unsuspecting doctor? Well, regardless of our assessment, PJII did write Padre Pio to thank him after her healing…he did believe Padre Pio had the gift of healing…

 

[Sunflower15]

Sorry I’m having a hard time getting this across. Michel seems to have explained it quite well.

His difference is between gifts of the HS and miraculous gifts of the HS. Perfectly clear.

[Not all gifts are miracles. But, some are…]

The difference WE were talking about * was between miracles in general and miraculous gifts of the HS, and I don’t see a difference whatsoever, since ALL miracles come from the HS…

In other words, you accept miracles by the HS, just not the miraculous gifts of the HS… Am I understanding you correctly?
*

 

[Arkguy]

I am glad God is not limited in How He chooses to bless us.

 

[ckempston]

I just wanted to say that it is very important to remember that the Catholic Church does NOT require belief in apparitions [such as Fatima & Lourdes], or private revelations to anyone [such as the Divine Mercy to St. Faustina]. Thanks for bringing up that point!

Also, that probably no one should have “faith” in miracles per se, but rather in the “miracle worker” and allow the possibility that in His infinite Love & Mercy, He may choose [not out of any necessity], but simply choose to intervene in our lives in an extraordinary way [miraculous].

I personally, LOVE these miracles, and can’t help but be grateful for them. Sure, some things may be self-suggestion or who knows what…but others…

One comes to mind. JPII, when he wasn’t yet a Pope, had a friend doctor who was diagnosed with cancer and no treatment seemed to work. JPII wrote a letter to Padre Pio and insisted on someone personally delivering it to him. When the letter was read to Padre Pio, he said that the author of the letter [JPII] was very important [fore-shadowing his papacy maybe?] and prayed for the lady doctor. She was suddenly healed. To the point that she [not knowing anything about Padre Pio’s intercession] began to think maybe they had misdiagnosed her…but the medical records were quite clear! Many years later, she goes to see Padre Pio saying Mass, and as he walks by her, though he had never seen her, stops and faces her to say “I see you are healthy now!” Is this a case of prophecy: JPII becoming a Pope…and of the works of healing in the case of the unsuspecting doctor? Well, regardless of our assessment, PJII did write Padre Pio to thank him after her healing…he did believe Padre Pio had the gift of healing…

Again, I have no problem with miracles, per se. The example you provide above, I see as analogous to the Apostles not being able to drive out a demon and then being told by Jesus that some only come out by prayer and fasting. Still obviously a miracle, but there seems to be something different about the way it was done. Similarly, there were people with miraculous gifts of healing in the early church, but elders were also given instruction to anoint the sick with oil and lay hands on them and pray. Again, there seems to be a difference here.

 

[Sunflower15]

I agree that all miracles are from the Holy Spirit.
However, not all gifts of the Holy Spirit are miraculous.

There is a difference.
Consider this example.
If I said that all sedans are blue, does that mean that all blue vehicles are sedans.
No … trucks and motorcycles might be blue as well.

You say all miracles are from the Holy Spirit … agreed!
Wisdom and Counsel are two of the ‘Gifts of the Holy Spirit’, but would not be considered miraculous.

michel

I loved your fallacy in the form of an Aristotelian syllogism! My undergrad was in philosophy [Thomistic Studies].

Yes. I completely understand and agree with your point.
However, that is NOT what the other posters said.

A couple of them said that the HS no longer intervenes in miraculous ways, since the death of the Apostles…I disagreed.
Then, they said the HS does miracles, but NOT with the miraculous gifts of the HS…???]
Now, does that make sense to you?

 

[cazayoux]

His difference is between gifts of the HS and miraculous gifts of the HS. Perfectly clear.

[Not all gifts are miracles. But, some are…]

The difference WE were talking about * was between miracles in general and miraculous gifts of the HS, and I don’t see a difference whatsoever, since ALL miracles come from the HS…

In other words, you accept miracles by the HS, just not the miraculous gifts of the HS… Am I understanding you correctly?
*

I think ck and I are on the same page to say that we believe in the miracles by the holy spirit as well as the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit … BUT … we do not believe the gibberish spoken in large groups is actually one of those miraculous gifts of the holy spirit.

ck … correct me if i misrepresented you.

cheers!

michel

 

[cazayoux]

I loved your fallacy in the form of an Aristotelian syllogism! My undergrad was in philosophy [Thomistic Studies].

Yes. I completely understand and agree with your point.
However, that is NOT what the other posters said.

A couple of them said that the HS no longer intervenes in miraculous ways, since the death of the Apostles…I disagreed.
Then, they said the HS does miracles, but NOT with the miraculous gifts of the HS…???]
Now, does that make sense to you?

Yes … sorry if I added confusion to the conversation … not my intent.
I believe the HS DOES in fact intervene in miraculous ways just not in the way of tongues in large groups.
I read a book a while back on Eucharistic miracles … just fantastic … and I would definitely consider these miracles to be of the Holy Spirit.

Cheers!

michel

 

[grannymh]

I’m saying there are no more Miraculous Gifts. Jesus certainly said the Apostles would do greater things that these, but what he meant by that, I think is open to interpretation. If you think there is still a gift of prophecy, show me a meaningful prophetic fulfillment, and not some generality like, “wickedness will increase blah blah blah.”

Please look at the context of the early Church following Pentecost. Please look at the history contained in the First Letter to the Corinthians. Look at the purpose of the First Letter to the Corinthians. Listen to the way Paul speaks.

Why did Paul write First Corinthians in the first place?

Could there be some confusion between the mission of the disciples and the mission of the Holy Spirit following Pentecost? How is the mission of the Holy Spirit described in the Gospel. How is the mission of the Holy Spirit fulfilled in Acts and the Letters?

As for confusion about prophesy, one needs to look at the Old Testament in addition to reading Nostradamus. No offense meant. Personally, I like to read page one while waiting to check out groceries.

Is the Old Testament a preparation for the Messiah? Consider both sections of Isaiah, not just one’s favorite verses.

In order to understand the church in any century, one must understand the purpose of the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.