Speaking in Tongues

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I am Catholic … 1000%

1 - The magesterium has not infallibly stated as a doctrine that I must believe that those that gather in large groups and speak in tongues are genuinely speaking in tongues.
So?
2 - The Charismatic Movement that the Catholic Church has approved is not equated to that group of babblers that claim they are speaking in tongues. There is a disconnect.
Which group are you talking about?
3 - I am called to question everything. I have done exactly this with every doctrine.
and can you be respectful in using polite language rather than babblers etc.?
4 - Paul DID say that … you should read the rest of what he said in that chapter
Wonderful advice. How will you handle the different interpretations of St.Paul’s words?
I do not believe those in these groups are actually receiving that *minor *gift of the holy spirit. I think they are deluding themselves… putting on a show for themselves or those around them. I see it as a lack of faith on their part … like they need proof that the Holy Spirit is with them.
It is your privilege to think whatever you want.
I have faith … I don’t need the proof. I think those people would better spend their time using the permanent gifts of the Holy Spirit (Counsel, Fortitude, Piety, Fear of the Lord, Understanding, Knowledge, Wisdome) to produce the Fruits of the Holy Spirit and actually build up the Body of Christ.
Please read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, #1830, #1831, #1832
If you wish to interpret these passages differently, that is your decision.
The gift is supposed to have a purpose … to build up the body of believers. If you are speaking tongues in your home by yourself … what’s the point?

michel
When the gifts are misunderstood, it is difficut to respond.
 
I agree to disagree with you. Nobody can make you believe in this. It comes by God’s grace and a true hunger and an open heart.
Chuck … I do thank you for the kind words and prayers … and you and granny’s patience with me.

I realize I need an open heart for all people … and at the same time, I have issue with this topic. I have love for those that gather in these large groups and speak in tongues together. I don’t know if you are a parent, but loving your kids doesn’t mean ignore what you think is wrong.

I DO have a true hunger and an open heart for Christ. I have an appreciation for the Eucharist that continues to grow exponentially. My Catholic cup runneth over. It just seems that ‘some’ charismatics would write a book entitled “The Charismatic Movement: Catholic is not Enough”.

michel
 
Granny, I would love to have a prayer meeting with you right now. You are truly a child of God. Such patience and wisdom. Thankyou.

Michael

I believe I can prove Tongues is for today. Obviously I haven’t proven it to you. You say you can prove the Real Presence. Obviously many Protestants beg to differ. So I really don’t understand this point.

I agree to disagree with you. Nobody can make you believe in this. It comes by God’s grace and a true hunger and an open heart.

I pray for God’s blessings in your life. I know you are studying and I commend you for this.

Chuck
Dear Chuck

It is 1:27 AM where I live. In a few minutes, I will leave for my 2:00 AM hour of adoring the Real Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. I will be praying in prayer tongues with you in spirit even if you are sleeping. One of the reasons I use prayer tongues is often I don’t know what a person needs. So I let the Holy Spirit take over.

If we can get on the thread the same time, we both can pray together.

Have to go. Jesus is looking for me.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred.
 
Chuck … I do thank you for the kind words and prayers … and you and granny’s patience with me.

I realize I need an open heart for all people … and at the same time, I have issue with this topic. I have love for those that gather in these large groups and speak in tongues together. I don’t know if you are a parent, but loving your kids doesn’t mean ignore what you think is wrong.

I DO have a true hunger and an open heart for Christ. I have an appreciation for the Eucharist that continues to grow exponentially. My Catholic cup runneth over. It just seems that ‘some’ charismatics would write a book entitled “The Charismatic Movement: Catholic is not Enough”.

michel
I’m on my way out the door for my 2:00 AM hour of adoration of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. You will be in my prayers. I may have to get back to you late Wednesday.

Blessings,
granny
 
Please read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, #1830, #1831, #1832
If you wish to interpret these passages differently, that is your decision.
This is one of the very first things I found and, as I stated earlier, are the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit that I’ve mentioned a couple of times. These are the same ones you mentioned are connected with Confirmation. I stated early on that these were the only ones I saw mention of being permanent. No interpretation necessary, since the gifts being written about in the catechism are listed there.

I also stated early on that the gift of prophecy is not permanent (found in the NAB intro to the Prophetic Books).
When the gifts are misunderstood, it is difficut to respond.
I don’t misunderstand the gifts.
I only doubt that large groups use a particular one all together.

michel
 
reisender … you believe that no God exists, right?
You have no proof for this position.
You fault me for believing in something that I cannot prove to you, but you yourself do the same. There is a name for that.

Be honest … the position you hold … is held on … faith.

michel
I disagree, atheists DO have a god [small g] it is called CHANCE or COINCIDENCE…which is who they claim causes EVERYthing…sort of like our “PRIME MOVER / FIRST CAUSE” [as in Aquinas’ justification for the existence of God].
Atheists are extremely devout and faithful to this god…defending him beyond reason…without a shadow of logic, and even contradicting themselves as needed, and as you said, without any proof, really.🤷

This god is very merciful, according to them, it causes wonderful things to happen on cue, heals all sort of illnesses, and even created everything seen or unseen [assuming they believe oxygen & electricity & the force of gravity exist!]

In fact, the Atheist god is a mirror image of our God… so their faith in him is a mirror image of our faith…just the same!
 
I disagree, atheists DO have a god [small g] it is called CHANCE or COINCIDENCE…which is who they claim causes EVERYthing…sort of like our “PRIME MOVER / FIRST CAUSE” [as in Aquinas’ justification for the existence of God].
Atheists are extremely devout and faithful to this god…defending him beyond reason…without a shadow of logic, and even contradicting themselves as needed, and as you said, without any proof, really.🤷

This god is very merciful, according to them, it causes wonderful things to happen on cue, heals all sort of illnesses, and even created everything seen or unseen [assuming they believe oxygen & electricity & the force of gravity exist!]

In fact, the Atheist god is a mirror image of our God… so their faith in him is a mirror image of our faith…just the same!
Wow, more strawmen.
An abstract concept is a god to people who do not believe in gods.
That works.

So you think atheism is the same as your faith, but you dismiss it.
See why I dismiss your faith?
 
Wow, more strawmen.
An abstract concept is a god to people who do not believe in gods.
That works.

So you think atheism is the same as your faith, but you dismiss it.
See why I dismiss your faith?
No, I don’t dismiss it. I consider it a religion. That was precisely my point, that it takes just as much faith and devotion as any other religion. And, I don’t mean that belligerently or disrespectfully.

Now,
Why do you say you were Catholic “all your life”…that makes no sense…did something happen? Or, you never really believed? I don’t see how to make that kind of switch after “all your life” you believed something else.
 
No, I don’t dismiss it. I consider it a religion. That was precisely my point, that it takes just as much faith and devotion as any other religion. And, I don’t mean that belligerently or disrespectfully.
Well, you can consider it whatever you want, but that doesn’t make it true.
Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair colour.
It is a lack of religion. Pretty simple.

I think it must be the case sometimes that some religious people can’t possibly imagine that people don’t believe in gods or have a religion. They feel it must be there. So they’ll just go and look for something to label as ‘their religion’.
What? You like baseball? That’s your religion. You must believe in your team. See, you have just as much faith as I do. :rolleyes:
Now,
Why do you say you were Catholic “all your life”…that makes no sense…did something happen? Or, you never really believed? I don’t see how to make that kind of switch after “all your life” you believed something else.
Are you talking to me? Did I say that?
 
Well, you can consider it whatever you want, but that doesn’t make it true.
Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair colour.
It is a lack of religion. Pretty simple.

I think it must be the case sometimes that some religious people can’t possibly imagine that people don’t believe in gods or have a religion. They feel it must be there. So they’ll just go and look for something to label as ‘their religion’.
What? You like baseball? That’s your religion. You must believe in your team. See, you have just as much faith as I do. :rolleyes:
Now,
Why do you say you were Catholic “all your life”…that makes no sense…did something happen? Or, you never really believed? I don’t see how to make that kind of switch after “all your life” you believed something else.
A little confusion. yesterday on the threads which I follow two of your brothers in non-belief joined the forum. That is the signature of one of them Humble in Doubt
 
“Yes, I agree about the “higher” gifts. And, that I have had sometimes, small things. I don’t control it, though. I also wonder if that is why I don’t speak in tongues. I have no doubts about the gifts or miracles or faith…maybe that’s why I don’t get those. I do love the Charismatic Movement in the Church! Thanks to God!”

Why would a person want to speak in tongues? What is the purpose of tongues?
 
Hi,
I’m sorry, but I still don’t understand what you mean by ‘God’.
The first cause? cause of what?
Every item or action (or inaction) in this universe is the result of a preceding cause.

We can start with your existence and trace back every cause.
At a high level … you are the result of your parents … back to the first life on the planet … back to the creation of our planet as the result of multiple masses colliding and combining as they revolved around the sun … back to the creation of our galaxy … back to the creation of the universe.

we trace back each cause for each result … it goes back to the first cause.

What caused the creation of the universe? What was that first cause for which nothing preceded it.

For our conversation, I define God as that first cause.

michel
 
God: The first cause.

Does God exist?

michel
Yahweh means i am who am … God is existence itself, therefore what ‘is’ he knows and what he knows ‘is’, hence being all knowing and all powerful
 
Is verse 16-17 regarding only one of the gifts? which? or is it both?
It seems that that last subject was ‘praying with the spirit’ (praying in tongues) … if we do view this verse as discussing different things.

However, I don’t see that there is a difference. It seems Paul is talking about the same thing … unless you think that ‘speaking in tongues’ is something other than prayer.
Good morning St. Paul,
I mean Michel,

All your searching for answers is paying off. You are seeing the Corinthian community as if you are about to write those laggards.😉

:rotfl:I’m sitting here pretending I am St. Paul and deciding which piece of my mind I am going to give those ingrates after all I did for them. I better drink my Pepsi (my substitute for morning coffee) and get serious.😊

Your comment about the thought that “speaking in tongues” is something other than prayer is the key to this whole thread.

If I may, I would like to start with the Isaiah Gifts connected with the Sacrament of Confirmation. These gifts are so relevant today, that I truly pray that every Confirmation preparation includes them…

My personal reason for starting with them is that they demonstrate that the Holy Spirit is essential to the overall plan for salvation and that He interacts with us on a personal basis. Thus, Pentecost and following should not be a surprise.

When someone is interested in the Charismatic Renewal, they attend classes. My reference is “Encountering the Risen Jesus” (ISBN: 0-943374-20-0) a six-week course first used in the Pennsylvania area. The general name for these courses is “Life in the Spirit”. This particular course would be an adaption.

The first lesson is about prayer starting with a basic description of prayer as a conversation with God and a personal experience of Him. It will then use St. Paul as our model. I am flipping through this manual and spotted this teaching: “The greatest, most important manifestation of the Risen Christ is the Eucharist.” The basic thrust of the Charismatic Renewal is to renew our Catholic faith.

Today, in addition to St. Paul, we have many great saints as models of prayer life. Charismatic prayer is one of many free choices. It follows the style of St. Paul. Sometimes, I feel like writing St. Paul a cranky letter complaining about his using the same words to describe different stuff.😉

St. Paul considered his style of prayer as a gift of the Holy Spirit. He saw the particular gift as one available to everyone. What distinguishes this gift is the interaction of the Holy Spirit with the individual. The interaction is that we allow the Holy Spirit to use our voice box, tongue, speech muscles. We yield to His power.
This is a very personal experience.

There were also a number of gifts, charisms, etc. given by the Holy Spirit to the early Church. One of them is known as the gift of speaking in tongues which is very similar to what you found on prophesy. Speaking in tongues was like prophesy in that it made known God’s words to His Church. The distinguishing characteristic is the person also yielded his voice box, tongue, speech muscles to the Holy Spirit.

In both of these gifts, praying and relaying the word of God, the Holy Spirit gives us different sounds of speech. I have my own idea of why but will refrain until I can check some of my research material. I have already decided that it would be better if I did not write a cranky letter to the Holy Spirit.😉

It is truly difficult to tell these two gifts apart especially with all the abuses starting with those nasty Corinthians. One needs to look at how the gift is being used, by whom it is being used, where it is being used, why it is being used, when it is being used, in what manner it is being used, who it is being addressed to, the subject matter and the intention of the person.

Hopefully, we can agree eventually that there are two separate gifts.

I am using the St. Joseph Edition of The New American Bible with the revised New Testament dated 1986. It has introductions to the books plus footnotes.

As for 1 Corinthians 14: 16-17. Because of St. Paul’s usage of “the spirit” in the previous verses in this section, we would consider that he is referring to the gift of praying in prayer tongues. Supporting this is that the person is pronouncing a blessing which St. Paul identifies as a thanksgiving which sounds more like a personal prayer to God. Since there is a question of interpretation so that one could answer “amen”, this prayer would have to be in some form of tongues.

In verse 17, St. Paul clarifies which gift by praising the pray-er and then saying that the listener didn’t receive any direct benefit, i.e., he wasn’t built up. Another clue that St. Paul refers to personal praying in prayer tongues is that it does not appear that the person is in an assembly. To see where the gift of speaking in tongues is to be used, see verse 26 and following.
Verse 14 starts with ‘For …’ … it is a lead in from the previous sentence, not a new subject.
It is a lead in as it is a contrast to verse 13. I beg your pardon, St. Paul, but this section sounds like you are having a conversation with yourself as you figure out the best way to explain the differences between the two gifts.😉

Please see next post.
 
Continuation of post 156 by grannymh
Originally Posted by cazayoux forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Verse 16, at best is talking about only ‘praying in the spirit’ is mentions that others need to know what you are saying… in other words, ‘praying in the spirit’ is audible. How is audible praying not ‘speaking’.
The difference between your interpretation and mine is that my bible puts St. Paul’s words into a question. “…how shall one who holds the place of the uninstructed say the “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?”

To me, the interesting thing about this question is that St. Paul knows that the listener does not have the gift of interpretation. This eliminates the gift of speaking in tongues as a possibility. So it is safe to conclude that the pray-er is praying in prayer tongues. St. Paul’s praise for the thanksgiving prayer verifies that it is the gift of praying in prayer tongues. Since they are not in an assembly there is no need for others to know what the pray-er is praying. To see where the gift of speaking in tongues is to be used, see verse 26 and following.

Praying in prayer tongues can be audible because the Holy Spirit is using the voice box, tongue, speech muscles of the person. With this particular gift, the person determines whether or not he will be audible. The person who is using the gift of speaking in tongues has to be audible because he is “speaking” in public.

If your question " How is audible praying not ‘speaking’." is referring to sounds which our own ears hear, audible and speaking would be the same.

If your question refers to the two separate gifts of the Holy Spirit , the following has to be considered: how the gift is being used, by whom it is being used, where it is being used, why it is being used, when it is being used, in what manner it is being used, who it is being addressed to, the subject matter and the intention of the speaker.

My apology. It is now afternoon because I have had to interrupt writing because this day is from another place than heaven.

My intention for the above was to concentrate on the gift of praying in prayer tongues. As I was thinking about this whole thing, I decided to explain “gift” in the manner in which I learned about it. First, there was instruction given to help us renew our Catholic faith in Jesus. The Sacrament of Reconciliation was encouraged so that we could have a true “conversion of heart” experience. We were taught about St. Paul’s way of praying… the rest I have to save for later.

I am sure you have questions about the above. Good.

I will do my best to address your other questions as soon as I can get out from under.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred.
 
If you are Catholics and the Catholic Church has a Charismatic Catholic Renewal which is approved of by the Catholic Church and you believe the Catholic Church has the authority to make these decisions, aren’t you questioning your own church and acting more like Baptist or Church of Christ in your prejudice against tongues? Basically you are saying the Catholic Church is in error in sanctioning these charisms or gifts. I don’t make up tongues. It is very real. Why would I make it up in my own home? Paul said “I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all”. If you don’t understand it or don’t want it then don’t partake. But I guarantee that anyone who has spoken in tongues while the spirit of God gave the utterance will never doubt their experience.
I 100% agree with you Arkguy…there are some many Catholics here that talk about the authority of the Catholic church being correct, but yet they dismiss this when the pope has even said ok to it. Isn’t this funny?? All of the sudden is the pope and Catholic church not correct on this?? What is the deal?? It would seem to me that the Catholics that are saying such things like this is blasphemy when the pope has approved it…well is that not blasphemy?? I guarantee you that the ones that are putting this movement down so bad that the Catholic church has approved that you can go to other threads they have posted on and all they do is talk about the Catholic church and the authority being the only one. Very interesting I must say!! 🤷
 
Granny, I would love to have a prayer meeting with you right now. You are truly a child of God. Such patience and wisdom. Thankyou.

Michael

I believe I can prove Tongues is for today. Obviously I haven’t proven it to you. You say you can prove the Real Presence. Obviously many Protestants beg to differ. So I really don’t understand this point.

I agree to disagree with you. Nobody can make you believe in this. It comes by God’s grace and a true hunger and an open heart.

I pray for God’s blessings in your life. I know you are studying and I commend you for this.

Chuck
Again, I have to 100% agree with you. Granny has shown me what a true Christian can be and is supposed to be. I have to be honest, I have been so sick of the fussing on the various threads on this Catholic site that I was beginning to think that is all both sides Catholic and Protestant alikes wanted to do on here, but I don’t believe that is the case here for Granny. She speaks what she believes in and of on the Catholic church with such grace, mercy and love. She is a true example of what we all should be. It is a pleasure to have actually get to read some of her thoughts on here and I have been blessed by her.

Arkguy, I also have to say the same for you. I agree with you. There are some on here that is not being very charitable at all. I do believe that cazayoux could find a better way of putting what he feels. I believe it be truly verging on strong hatred and blasphemy and I think I would step back and keep my mouth shut at this point, if I were them. Yep, that is strong, but as you have said Arkguy, when you believe in the holy spirit and ALL its gifts, you do get quit offended by what some are saying. You know you can expect it from somebody on here that does not believe in God, but for someone that claims they do believe in God…hmmm, not too sure! Thanks Arkguy also for being a blessing.
 
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