Speaking in Tongues

[cazayoux]

She (granny) is a true example of what we all should be.

I agree. Thank you granny for being so patient with me. It is appreciated.

I do believe that cazayoux could find a better way of putting what he feels.

You are right. I will give renewed effort not to be so … mean sounding.

I believe it be truly verging on strong hatred and blasphemy and I think I would step back and keep my mouth shut at this point, if I were them. Yep, that is strong, but as you have said Arkguy, when you believe in the holy spirit and ALL its gifts, you do get quit offended by what some are saying. You know you can expect it from somebody on here that does not believe in God, but for someone that claims they do believe in God…hmmm, not too sure! Thanks Arkguy also for being a blessing.

I DO believe in the Holy Spirit and ALL His gifts.
As granny stated, these were given to the early church.
I DO actually believe that the Holy Spirit might still give this gift to individuals.
My issue is large groups speaking in tongues together. It seems to go against Paul’s instructions regarding the purpose of the gifts. I believe the Holy Spirit can give a gift, I do not believe it is something you stand in line for.
Please try to see it from my point of view.

I also believe that the Charismatic Renewal is a great way to bring some protestants into our beautiful Catholic faith. It’s one more draw for them to hopefully, eventually bring them to the Eucharist. I do feel there are abuses within the Charismatic Renewal movement, specifically in regard to speaking in tongues.

Granny and I had further discussion on Paul’s writing and whether, in a particular passage, He is speaking of one or two gifts: ‘speaking in tongues’ or … ‘speaking in tongues’ and ‘praying in tongues’.
At the latest, granny has provided a couple of very well thought out and reasoned explanations. I hope to continue that conversation.

Please forgive my less-than-cordial tone from the other night. I’ll try to do better. Pray for me.

michel

 

[grannymh]

I agree. Thank you granny for being so patient with me. It is appreciated.

You are right. I will give renewed effort not to be so … mean sounding.

I DO believe in the Holy Spirit and ALL His gifts.
As granny stated, these were given to the early church.
I DO actually believe that the Holy Spirit might still give this gift to individuals.
My issue is large groups speaking in tongues together. It seems to go against Paul’s instructions regarding the purpose of the gifts. I believe the Holy Spirit can give a gift, I do not believe it is something you stand in line for.
Please try to see it from my point of view.

I also believe that the Charismatic Renewal is a great way to bring some protestants into our beautiful Catholic faith. It’s one more draw for them to hopefully, eventually bring them to the Eucharist. I do feel there are abuses within the Charismatic Renewal movement, specifically in regard to speaking in tongues.

Granny and I had further discussion on Paul’s writing and whether, in a particular passage, He is speaking of one or two gifts: ‘speaking in tongues’ or … ‘speaking in tongues’ and ‘praying in tongues’.
At the latest, granny has provided a couple of very well thought out and reasoned explanations. I hope to continue that conversation.

Please forgive my less-than-cordial tone from the other night. I’ll try to do better. Pray for me.

michel

I’ll pray for you on one condition – that you will pray for me.

Quick note to our non-theist and miscellaneous friends. My non-theist daughter accepts my prayers and sends me good thoughts in return. Will you do the same?

 

[cazayoux]

I’ll pray for you on one condition – that you will pray for me.

That’s one condition I’m always happy to meet.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Good morning St. Paul,
I mean Michel,

A departure from your usual kindness?
I know I got a little … heated … the other night.
Please do not follow my bad example.

Me looking at the scripture and trying to understand what it means must start with (1) who the author is and (2) who the audience is. Of course we look to see how this scripture appeals to us today.

My taking this approach in no way has me claiming to be or know more than St. Paul.
We read the same scripture and see different things.
Let’s discuss and discern.

“The greatest, most important manifestation of the Risen Christ is the Eucharist.”

amen, Amen, AMEN!!

There were also a number of gifts, charisms, etc. given by the Holy Spirit to the early Church. One of them is known as the gift of speaking in tongues which is very similar to what you found on prophesy. Speaking in tongues was like prophesy in that it made known God’s words to His Church. The distinguishing characteristic is the person also yielded his voice box, tongue, speech muscles to the Holy Spirit.

No problems here … I see that you, like me, see that the purpose of these gifts is to edify the church … in your words “to make known God’s words to His Church”.

It is truly difficult to tell these two gifts apart especially with all the abuses starting with those nasty Corinthians. One needs to look at how the gift is being used, by whom it is being used, where it is being used, why it is being used, when it is being used, in what manner it is being used, who it is being addressed to, the subject matter and the intention of the person.

I agree completely. If there are abuses, should I keep quiet or speak up?

Hopefully, we can agree eventually that there are two separate gifts.

I have absolutely no problem with accepting your view that there are two different gift, if that is what scripture shows. However, at my initial viewing of the scripture you cited, I didn’t see it as two different gifts. I would love to continue the exercise and I am completely open to whatever answer I am led to. I have no personal objection or affinity to either of the possible meanings. I’m only trying to understand the scriptural text.

I’ll respond to your addressing of the verses soon.

Cheers!

michel

 

[cazayoux]

(continued from above)

If your question refers to the two separate gifts of the Holy Spirit , the following has to be considered: how the gift is being used, by whom it is being used, where it is being used, why it is being used, when it is being used, in what manner it is being used, who it is being addressed to, the subject matter and the intention of the speaker.

I completely agree with the underlined.

As I was thinking about this whole thing, I decided to explain “gift” in the manner in which I learned about it. First, there was instruction given to help us renew our Catholic faith in Jesus. The Sacrament of Reconciliation was encouraged so that we could have a true “conversion of heart” experience. We were taught about St. Paul’s way of praying… the rest I have to save for later.

Amen to keeping with the sacraments … often participation in confession and communion are essential to growing in our faith.

As you state above, you are approaching the scripture having been instructed in its meaning. I am approaching the scripture rather bare, with no preconceived notions. This is a great exercise, I think, for both of us.

You had mentioned later verses in the chapter, so I’ve continued reading.

1 Cor 14:22
22 Thus, tongues are a sign not for those who believe but for unbelievers, whereas prophecy is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

This is my issue with believers gathering to speak in tongues together. This scripture very plainly states that tongues are not a sign for those who believe. What is the purpose of believers gathering and speaking in tongues?

1 Cor 14:22
23 So if the whole church meets in one place and everyone speaks in tongues, and then uninstructed people or unbelievers should come in, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

Couldn’t be any clearer.
**
1 Cor 14:26-27
26 So what is to be done, brothers? When you assemble, one has a psalm, another an instruction, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Everything should be done for building up.
27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three, and each in turn, and one should interpret.**

This shows the considerations you mentioned. The purpose for the gifts.
“two or at most three” … again underlying my issue with believers gathering in large groups to speak in tongues. They are not following Paul’s instruction with regard to the gift. I question if they actually have the gift.

1 Cor 14:28
28 But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God.

HERE is where we see inaudible tongues … just between you and God … yet it is still referred to as speaking.
More reason I think ‘praying in tongues’ is not separate from ‘speaking in tongues’. They are one in the same.

Cheers!

michel

 

[grannymh]

A departure from your usual kindness?
I know I got a little … heated … the other night.
Please do not follow my bad example.

Me looking at the scripture and trying to understand what it means must start with (1) who the author is and (2) who the audience is. Of course we look to see how this scripture appeals to us today.

My taking this approach in no way has me claiming to be or know more than St. Paul.

I’ll respond to your addressing of the verses soon.

Cheers!

michel

Thanks for calling me on my reference to St. Paul and you. Glad you gave me an opportunity to explain. As I tell my kids and grandkids, you can say anything to me, even call my shoes funny looking, but don’t ever lie to me.

I had been called to sub at 2:00 AM Eucharistic Adoration, Tuesday morning. Personally, I like the 2:00 AM hour, because I can get in a nap before and some decent sleep afterwards. The opportunity to sub seemed like a perfect time to find a different approach to St. Paul. Nothing came to me.

After morning shut-eye, I started imagining what Paul was dealing with. It was like I was in the room with him. I read your post and realized you were also in the same room as St. Paul dealing with the same issues. It seemed like you were trying to tell the Corinthians… So I addressed you as St. Paul.

I’m a bit like Walter Mitty as in the movie “The Secret Life of Walter Mitty.” Yes, I am that old that I saw the movie in a movie theatre. My problem is that you weren’t in the movie theatre with me and had no clue what I was dreaming about. I wonder if that counts as a senior moment. Seriously, please accept my sincere apology even though I am laughing at myself. And thank you.

However, I was right in the way you look at scripture according to your two points above. IMHO, that is the best place to start and then, as you say, look to see how this scripture appeals to us today.

Unfortunately, I need to leave for an appointment. Will get back to you later.

Blessings,
granny

All human beings are God’s pride and joy.

 

[grannymh]

To be on topic, speaking in tongues is babbling. Take offense if you will.
If you actually believe it means anything, record it and show it to historical linguists.
This is a reliable way to prove that you are speaking a language that you yourself do not know. If no linguist can make any sense of it… guess what?

You’re making it up.
or
You’re insane. - if not just in the heat of the moment.
or
God is doing a terrible job of communicating.

Reisender, Please note-- yesterday, I was in a Walter Mitty mood as in the movie “The Secret Life of Walter Mitty”. So I hope you took my post 172 in the light hearted manner I intended. However, there is a serious undertone to it which I would like to discuss with you.

Need to run…

Blessings,
granny

All humanity is worthy of admiration.

 

[rolltidefan]

I agree. Thank you granny for being so patient with me. It is appreciated.

You are right. I will give renewed effort not to be so … mean sounding.

I DO believe in the Holy Spirit and ALL His gifts.
As granny stated, these were given to the early church.
I DO actually believe that the Holy Spirit might still give this gift to individuals.
My issue is large groups speaking in tongues together. It seems to go against Paul’s instructions regarding the purpose of the gifts. I believe the Holy Spirit can give a gift, I do not believe it is something you stand in line for.
Please try to see it from my point of view.

I also believe that the Charismatic Renewal is a great way to bring some protestants into our beautiful Catholic faith. It’s one more draw for them to hopefully, eventually bring them to the Eucharist. I do feel there are abuses within the Charismatic Renewal movement, specifically in regard to speaking in tongues.

Granny and I had further discussion on Paul’s writing and whether, in a particular passage, He is speaking of one or two gifts: ‘speaking in tongues’ or … ‘speaking in tongues’ and ‘praying in tongues’.
At the latest, granny has provided a couple of very well thought out and reasoned explanations. I hope to continue that conversation.

Please forgive my less-than-cordial tone from the other night. I’ll try to do better. Pray for me.

michel

Michel…no apology needed. We all get wrapped up in things we are trying to convey and sometimes use the wrong tone or wording. I appreciate that you have seen that your choice of wording was probably not the best and that shows that you are a truly genuine caring person. Thanks so much. I hope you learn or least try to learn what some of here know to be a true gift from God. If you don’t believe it, that is okay also, everybody doesn’t have to believe everything and exactly the way we do…however, I do appreciate the respect, as I do try to respect everyone also. You are great!!

 

[grannymh]

That’s one condition I’m always happy to meet.

michel

Hi michel,

I’m back and see you are on thread. I will start reading

 

[grannymh]

Originally Posted by grannymh http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
It is truly difficult to tell these two gifts apart especially with all the abuses starting with those nasty Corinthians. One needs to look at how the gift is being used, by whom it is being used, where it is being used, why it is being used, when it is being used, in what manner it is being used, who it is being addressed to, the subject matter and the intention of the person.

I agree completely. If there are abuses, should I keep quiet or speak up?

You are a tactful person so figure out who you should speak to and do it. If it is a regular prayer group meeting, you might wait until later to speak to the leader or to the pastor. If it is a larger event, and you question something, go to those in charge. In most dioceses, there is a vicar or someone who oversees the Charismatic renewal. This is the person to see if a serious abuse took place or if a prayer group is out of line.

I have absolutely no problem with accepting your view that there are two different gifts, if that is what scripture shows. However, at my initial viewing of the scripture you cited, I didn’t see it as two different gifts. I would love to continue the exercise and I am completely open to whatever answer I am led to. I have no personal objection or affinity to either of the possible meanings. I’m only trying to understand the scriptural text.
michel

While I was driving today, I thought about this a lot. I think it is good to discuss scripture. At this point, my goal is to clarifiy that there is the personal prayer of praying in prayer tongues which is different from the higher gifts.

Everything else in this post was understandable to both of us.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred.

 

[guanophore]

The only Biblical way to speak in a tongue is one at a time, and there must be an interpretation. Period. Otherwise, Paul says to keep your trap shut.

1 Cor 14:26-27 What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should **keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. **

This is true, but applies only to public meetings. It does not apply to private prayer.

This nonsense that you see with people falling out in the aisles and everybody screaming at the top of their lungs over one another is UNBiblical.

I agree, but it does not mean it isn’t appopriate to pray in tongues.

 

[guanophore]

I am sory but I jumped into this conversation in mid stream. So for my benefit could you fill me in or show me the comments to read. I am not mocking speaking in tongues. My questions are biblically based. If we make a statment and say it is biblical then we must have Bible support for it. I am not say that tongues are or are not for today. I want to know where in the bible that it says tongues are needed for today. So don’t take offense. By the way I have not read the book you are referring to.

What would make you think they were NOT “needed for today” ? Why would God give a gift that is not “necessary”?

Rom 11:28-30
29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

God does not “take back” His gifts. They are here for the building up of the Church, and will be until the Church is no longer needed.

 

[Cam-masta]

I have been involved in Pentecostal and charismatic circles in the past, both prior and after conversion to our holy mother, the Church. I believe there is plenty of manipulation through the lower nature of feelings and emotions, and not enough discernment through the intellect. Our Lord calls us to to honor him with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. Have there been some who have had the genuine gift of tongues? Of course. Have there been others who have spoken or prayed in tongues out of pressure from one or more leaders in a prayer group? Of course.

 

[guanophore]

Sign gifts were given to the Apostles and to those whom the Apostles recognized to authenticate their message from God.

Are you under some misapprehension that the message of the Gospel does not continue to need an authentic witness?

Anyway, they have other purposes besides being “signs”.

After the Bible was written sign gifts ceased to used or needed. If you will notice that in the early Epistles sign gifts were mentioned some but not in the later books. We have the Word of God and do not need certain gifts any more.

No, DL, this is incorrect. such an erroneous conclusion is generally based upon a misunderstanding of this passage:

1 Cor 13:10-11
10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.

Most “bible Christians” believe that the Bible is the “perfect” that is referred to in this verse, but it is not. He who is Perfect, Christ, will “come” in HIs time, and at that point, there will be no more need for the Church on earth. At that time, the gifts will cease. Until that time, they are necessary for the building up of the Body of Christ.

1 Cor 14:11-12
12 So with yourselves; since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

Eph 4:10-14
11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;

The gifts function to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. As long as we are still on earth, we still need equipping, and need to grow in the faith an knowledge of the Son.

We will not measur up to the stature of fulness until we are united with Him in heaven. Th Spiritual Gifts are for the Church Militant (those working out salvation in fear and trembling).

I was once taught the error that you describe here, when I was attending a Southern Baptist Church.

 

[grannymh]

Originally Posted by grannymh forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
If your question refers to the two separate gifts of the Holy Spirit , the following has to be considered: how the gift is being used, by whom it is being used, where it is being used, why it is being used, when it is being used, in what manner it is being used, who it is being addressed to, the subject matter and the intention of the speaker.

I completely agree with the underlined.

The sentence you put in bold is the most important. The others come from a writer’s list of questions: who, how, what, when, where, why, cost. Cost usually refers to admission fees. What would you think about using cost as a description of one’s humility in using a gift?

Amen to keeping with the sacraments … often participation in confession and communion are essential to growing in our faith.

Another thing to add to the above. Often during Life in the Spirit seminars, there are talks about serving the Church. There have been many people who take the seminar classes and never belong to a Charismatic prayer group. But they become extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion or lectors, etc.

As you state above, you are approaching the scripture having been instructed in its meaning. I am approaching the scripture rather bare, with no preconceived notions. This is a great exercise, I think, for both of us.

I am grateful for the challenge.

You had mentioned later verses in the chapter, so I’ve continued reading.

1 Cor 14:22
22 Thus, tongues are a sign not for those who believe but for unbelievers, whereas prophecy is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

This is my issue with believers gathering to speak in tongues together. This scripture very plainly states that tongues are not a sign for those who believe. What is the purpose of believers gathering and speaking in tongues?

This one is weird even with the St. Joseph Edition of The New American Bible footnotes which link verses 20-22 together. In verse 21,To challenge the pride of the Corinthians to a more mature appraisal of tongues, Paul draws from Scripture a less flattering explanation of what speaking in tongues may signify. He compresses Isaiah 28:11-12 to make a point. Isaiah threatened the people that if they failed to listen to their prophets, the Lord would speak to them in punishment through the strange tongues of Assyrian conquerors. This would not be a sign of God’s pleasure.

1 Cor 14:23
23 So if the whole church meets in one place and everyone speaks in tongues, and then uninstructed people or unbelievers should come in, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

The footnotes for 14: 23-25 offer: “Paul projects the possible missionary effect of two hyothetical liturgical experiences, one consisting wholly of tongues, the other entirely of propehcy.” Then the footnortes offer a couple of ideas as to who the “uninstructed” are.

1 Cor 14:26-27

26 So what is to be done, brothers? When you assemble, one has a psalm, another an instruction, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Everything should be done for building up.

This shows the considerations you mentioned. The purpose for the gifts.

27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three

, and each in turn, and one should interpret.

“two or at most three” … again underlying my issue with believers gathering in large groups to speak in tongues. They are not following Paul’s instruction with regard to the gift. I question if they actually have the gift.

Following this are verses 29 and 30 which refer to two or three prophets and appears to say the opposite. 31 “For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged.”

Have you ever read something five times and then on the sixth time see something entirely different? This just happened to me. I kept thinking that the word “tongues” has different meanings. But now I think it has the simple meaning of sounds or words different from the person’s vernacular language. Thus, tongues is really generic. This would bring us right back to the sentence you underlined: why it is being used, What is your reaction to that idea?

1 Cor 14:28
28 But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God.

HERE is where we see inaudible tongues … just between you and God … yet it is still referred to as speaking.
More reason I think ‘praying in tongues’ is not separate from ‘speaking in tongues’. They are one in the same.

Cheers!

michel

Inaudible sounds would automatically rule out the higher gift of instructing others because this gift needs an interpreter not a mind reader.

I’m just starting to think about this so don’t expect accuracy. If tongues refers to sounds or words different than one’s own, the only way one could tell the difference between praying and speaking would again be why it is being used?, or maybe we can say: Why is the gift being given? You have answered that question in regard to the Isaiah gifts. Can that question be extended to the other gifts?

I’m beginning to feel like Walter Mitty again. Maybe the issue with large groups concerns the relationship between these two questions with an added third question:
how the gift is being used,?

My brain is tired.:yawn:

Blessings,
granny

All human life is precious.

 

[reisender]

Reisender, Please note-- yesterday, I was in a Walter Mitty mood as in the movie “The Secret Life of Walter Mitty”. So I hope you took my post 172 in the light hearted manner I intended. However, there is a serious undertone to it which I would like to discuss with you.

Sure, I’m up for discussion. As long as you’re speaking in English.

 

[guanophore]

Where is praying in tongues cited in scripture??

1 Cor 14:2-3
2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

The reason this variety of tongues should not be used in the public service is because it cannot be understood by others, and if it is not interpreted, is not useful to the others.

1 Cor 14:4-5
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

Private prayer in tongues builds up the individual in the Spirit.

Eph 6:18
18 Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication.

Rom 8:26-27

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words. 27 And he who searches the hearts of men knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

The private prayer use of the gift of tongues is yielding to the Spirit, and allowing the Spirit to pray through one, disengaging the mind.

1 Cor 14:14-15 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful…
I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

 

[guanophore]

Q. where do find the term prayer tongues in the Bible?

Are you kidding? It is right there next to the definition of the word “Trinity”!

It is on the page after the list of books that belongs in the Bible.

Such a question is based on the false presumption that the Bible is expected to be a complete compendium of the faith.

1 Cor 12:10
“…various kinds of tongues…”

1 Cor 12:28
speakers in various kinds of tongues.

This passage, 1 Cor. 14, does not say that tongues are a prayer language. It does not mention prayer here.

This is true, but we do not pull single verses and use them to create doctrine. We take the entire Scripture as a whole, and interpet it based on the Teaching of the Apostles.
We understand what is written here along with other passages that reference the topic, and the doctrine of the Church.

It is talking about the inadequacy of tongues without an interpreter.Paul says that prophecy is far more important than tongues because it edifies the whole church and that is one reason why we meet for church.

Indeed he is. He is referencing the use of the gift of tongues during a public service. His reference to the fact that tongues is also speaking to oneself and to God is ancillary.
That makes it no less true.

Notice the Romans passage says that the Spirit helps us in our praying when we don’t have the words to say. The Spirit does so not in tongues but in words that cannot be expressed

Tongues is an expression and does not fit here.

This is apparently what you have been taught, because for some reason you need to discount and discredit this Gift of God. However, the Spirit does help some people in tongues, as well as “groans”. All these are valid forms of private prayer. Crying is the same way.

 

[guanophore]

Great response. Here is a question I always ask someone when they try to defend tongues. I ask them to show me where it says that in the bible. We must have biblical support for our doctrine. It is never wrong to ask people to provide biblical evidence to support their doctrine.

I agree, but the Bible is not the Source of our doctrine. The doctrine of the faith was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. The Source of the Doctrine is Jesus Himself. If Jesus found it necessary to give this gift to the Church, who are you to decide it is not?

 

[guanophore]

Prophecy and tongues are not the same thing.

No, but they are intended to function in conjunction with one another.

We do not need prophecy today because we have the Word of God.

This is simply an untruth you have been taught. God does not give unnecessary gifts to His Church.

If you study the history of tongues, by 100 AD tongues had left the scene and did not come forth until latter under false religions.

If this is what you have found, then your “study” has been very narrow. This gift has been present in the Church from the day of Pentecost until now. The abuse of the gift does not invalidate it.