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4Squarebaby
Guest
Do we know God’s purpose for anything He does?
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guanophore
Guest
DL, any intellectually honest person reading this thread can clearly see the multiplicity of scripture I have used here to support what I am saying. What is clear is that we understand that Scripture differently. I read Scripture in the light of the Apostolic Teaching, which I receive through the Church, by the authority of the Apostolic Succession put in place by Christ.
You read scripture according to some other authority. As a result, we come to opposing conclusions.
"guanophore:
You are missing my point, DL. My point is that the NT reflects the experiences of the Early Church. The deposit of faith was complete, alive, and functioning in the Church prior to any word of the NT being written. The REASON we have the NT is because it is the HS that is our guide to the Truth. The HS was given to the Church by Jesus, along with His promise that the Church would be guided into all Truth. This happened 400 years before the Bible was created!
You have your Sources backwards.
Indeed, the Apostle speaks here of the prophetic word that existed int he Church. The only Scripture that was available at this time (aside from what Peter and Paul were writing) was the OT. The Apostles understood the OT in the light of the teaching of Jesus.
The Scripture is not able to be an “authority” in the sense that you are trying to make it here. Authority requires responsibility, and the Scriptures, Holy Writings though they are, cannot exercise abilities that belong to persons.
However, Jesus did give this authority to His Apostles, who made it clear that the gifts of the HS will remain with the Church until she is taken up by Christ.
Indeed, but the Word of God is Jesus Himself. He has manifested Himself in His Church, as well as in the Holy Writing. What you have done here is disregard what He has revealed to His Church.
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guanophore
Guest
Such a statement is a reflection of the common ailment that is referred to as “cafeteria” Catholicism. Rejecting the Church teachings with which one does not feel comfortable. In my opinion, this activity rejecting parts of Church teachings of which one does not personally approve is really not Catholic at all, but Protestant. I think most “cafeteria” Catholics are really Protestants, but don’t know it.
In reality one is not really Catholic unless one is willing to embrace “all that the Church believes and teaches”, whether one understands it, or not.
Claiming to be Catholic while rejecting Church teaching is a contradiction.
This statement indicates that you have made yourself the standard of what God would do, or not do. This is the epitome of hubris, and reflects the same sin that Adam and Eve committed in the Garden.
If these are the things that you have observed in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, then you clearly have had no authentic expereinces from which to determinen your opinion. All these behaviors are abuses and inappropriate, in Mass, or out of it.
If these are the behaviors to which you orefer when you state that “it’s absurd in my understanding of what the HS would do”, then I agree with you. However, such an assessment is based not on your opinion or mine, but upon the revelation of God.
Clearly you have been looking at some other movement, not approved by the Church. I can’t blame you for having such negativity, since you don’t appear to have any authentic experience in this area, yet plenty of observations malformed experiences.
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guanophore
Guest
You keep posing this question, which makes me think that you are not reading my posts, or that you just don’t like the answers.
However, for the sake of those who are willing to accept an answer to this question, I will repeat myself. The purpose of the Spiritual Gifts is to build up the Church. This includes the building up of individuals, so that they are equipped to serve the Church,and the world, leading people to Christ.
There are as many different uses for tongues as there are varieties of tongues. One of these you appear to have accepted, which is when a person extols God in a language that is not known to themselves, but is known to the listener. This variety was evident on the day of Pentecost. You have also acknowledges another purpose of tongues, which is to reveal the word of God when the Church gathers in prayer. Both of these varieties you claim are no longer needed.
What is your purpose in denying what the scripture states about God’s gifts? What do you hope to gain by refusing the gifts of God?
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grannymh
Guest
Here is another way of looking at the Catholic Charismatic Renewal – PURPOSE
The main purpose of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is to renew and strengthen our faith.
Currently, one of the ways our Catholic Church is being renewed is through the form of the original blessings and graces which abounded in the early Church. Historically, the Holy Spirit’s gifts to the early church were also abused much in the same way they are today. Fortunately, the abuses did not close down the early Church. Bet on the Holy Spirit to win.
The best thing you and others can do is to pray that those who have been called to be leaders in the Catholic Renewal will remain faithful to its original purpose. Continue your walk with the Lord. Remember there are many ministries/members in the Mystical Body of Christ.
Easter blessings,
granny
On day one, Pentecost, those cowards in the upper room needed a transfusion of grace (revival) in order to carry out Our Lord’s mission. God replied to their prayers and is continuing to reply throughout Church history with reformers like St. Francis, St. Faustina, great Popes and so on. The Holy Spirit is always renewing the Church. We need to respond.
The main purpose of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is to renew and strengthen our faith.
What the Holy Spirit does, as promised, is to touch souls individually and collectively as members of the Mystical Body of Christ. Being human, we respond to the Holy Spirit physically as well as spiritually. A physical example is praying on our knees at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. A physical example from the early Church is praying in prayer tongues. Then as now, praying in prayer tongues is meant to be done in the same reverend way we normally pray and sing. Does holiness and reverence ever make page one of the tabloids at the check-out counter?
Unfortunately, people’s pride leads to abuses. It is the abuses which are truly upsetting and not the message of renewal.
Currently, one of the ways our Catholic Church is being renewed is through the form of the original blessings and graces which abounded in the early Church. Historically, the Holy Spirit’s gifts to the early church were also abused much in the same way they are today. Fortunately, the abuses did not close down the early Church. Bet on the Holy Spirit to win.
The best thing you and others can do is to pray that those who have been called to be leaders in the Catholic Renewal will remain faithful to its original purpose. Continue your walk with the Lord. Remember there are many ministries/members in the Mystical Body of Christ.
Easter blessings,
granny
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heiscominginthe
Guest
Question #1: What is the very first commandment Jesus Christ gives to his infant church?
Answer #1: The last words of Jesus and the first commandment to the infant church were to tarry until they received the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.
Question #2: Are people automatically baptized with the Holy Ghost the day they are saved?
Answer #2: The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is a separate and distinct supernatural occurrence that follows the born-again experience.
Question #3: How did the saints of old get baptized with the Holy Ghost?
Answer #3: When the saints of old received the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, they spoke in unknown tongues.
Question #4: How did the Apostles recognize one who was baptized with the Holy Ghost?
Answer #4: The manifestation recognized by Peter at Cornelius’ house, indicating that the people, in fact, had received the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, is that he heard them speak with tongues.
Question #5: What is the purpose of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost?
Answer #5: Four foundational functions of the Holy Ghost are as follows: supernatural teacher, supernatural memory, supernatural power, and supernatural prayer life.
Question #6: Do Christians get baptized with the Holy Ghost today?
Answer #6: Yes, Christians do get baptized with the Holy Ghost today just as they did on the day of Pentecost. Worldwide estimates of those who are part of the Pentecostal/charismatic movement range from a low of 130 million, to more than 580 million.
Question #7: Were the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, gifts of the Spirit, and miracles only for the days of the Apostles?
Answer #7: The Baptism with the Holy Ghost, with signs following, is for today. Acts 2:38-39:
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Question #8: Do the Baptism with the Holy Ghost and the nine gifts of the Spirit serve separate functions?
Answer #8: The Baptism with the Holy Ghost and the nine gifts of the Spirit do serve separate functions.
Question #9: Is speaking with new tongues a phenomenon that began in 1906? Is that which is perfect already come (I Corinthians 13:10)?
Answer #9: The Baptism with the Holy Ghost and glossolalia did not begin in 1906, and that which is perfect is yet to come.
Question #10: How can a Christian receive the Baptism with the Holy Ghost today?
Answer #10: The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is received today just as it was on the day of Pentecost, with simple childlike faith. Visit the five-part series on the Holy Ghost on God Said Man Said. Inside article number five, you will be instructed on how to receive the marvelous gift of the Holy Ghost. Do not take a shortcut. Be prepared for the miraculous.
Answer #1: The last words of Jesus and the first commandment to the infant church were to tarry until they received the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.
Question #2: Are people automatically baptized with the Holy Ghost the day they are saved?
Answer #2: The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is a separate and distinct supernatural occurrence that follows the born-again experience.
Question #3: How did the saints of old get baptized with the Holy Ghost?
Answer #3: When the saints of old received the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, they spoke in unknown tongues.
Question #4: How did the Apostles recognize one who was baptized with the Holy Ghost?
Answer #4: The manifestation recognized by Peter at Cornelius’ house, indicating that the people, in fact, had received the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, is that he heard them speak with tongues.
Question #5: What is the purpose of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost?
Answer #5: Four foundational functions of the Holy Ghost are as follows: supernatural teacher, supernatural memory, supernatural power, and supernatural prayer life.
Question #6: Do Christians get baptized with the Holy Ghost today?
Answer #6: Yes, Christians do get baptized with the Holy Ghost today just as they did on the day of Pentecost. Worldwide estimates of those who are part of the Pentecostal/charismatic movement range from a low of 130 million, to more than 580 million.
Question #7: Were the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, gifts of the Spirit, and miracles only for the days of the Apostles?
Answer #7: The Baptism with the Holy Ghost, with signs following, is for today. Acts 2:38-39:
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Question #8: Do the Baptism with the Holy Ghost and the nine gifts of the Spirit serve separate functions?
Answer #8: The Baptism with the Holy Ghost and the nine gifts of the Spirit do serve separate functions.
Question #9: Is speaking with new tongues a phenomenon that began in 1906? Is that which is perfect already come (I Corinthians 13:10)?
Answer #9: The Baptism with the Holy Ghost and glossolalia did not begin in 1906, and that which is perfect is yet to come.
Question #10: How can a Christian receive the Baptism with the Holy Ghost today?
Answer #10: The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is received today just as it was on the day of Pentecost, with simple childlike faith. Visit the five-part series on the Holy Ghost on God Said Man Said. Inside article number five, you will be instructed on how to receive the marvelous gift of the Holy Ghost. Do not take a shortcut. Be prepared for the miraculous.
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guanophore
Guest
If you are going to cut and paste, at least give your source. Please observe the forum rules.
This list of questions is, for the post part, almost as spurious as the answers. The answer to #3 answers a question that was not asked, and does not answer the question posed in # 3.
This ans. to question #8 is particularly shallow, if I may note.
I would urge anyone who is seeking a Catholic answer to the the OP to disregard this post, and the material to which it refers.
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wildjmp
Guest
I’m not sure what you’re referring to, many clergy and Catholic parishioners don’t agree with this movement. And yes, what I’ve seen is authentic, it’s clearly a Catholic mass that I’m watching and is labeled as one. And what I’ve read and heard from people who explain what goes on at these charismatic masses. My father also grew up Baptist and told me what he had experienced was ridiculous, I’ve witnessed a Pentecostal group do their thing out in public, didn’t feel like I was witnessing anything holy. I’m also not a cafeteria Catholic, and definitely not Protestant. Catholics have a right to defend what they see is going wrong in their Church and question it. And I don’t think I’m creating any sin by acknowledging that I think this movement is evil. Most of these look like protestant rock concerts so become pentecostal, not Catholic. Again, I don’t believe the Holy Spirit would be having people do what charismatics say/do. I don’t have any reason to want to dismiss this movement, other than I don’t believe it’s good and I don’t believe it belongs in our Church.
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wildjmp
Guest
“Answer #7: The Baptism with the Holy Ghost, with signs following, is for today. Acts 2:38-39:
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
This is saying that everyone should be baptized and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is obviously not in the sense of a charism gift because this is what EVERYONE receives when they’re baptized. :yup:
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
This is saying that everyone should be baptized and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is obviously not in the sense of a charism gift because this is what EVERYONE receives when they’re baptized. :yup:
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grannymh
Guest
Thank you for your persistence. One of the mistakes, I make is assuming that everyone is talking about the same thing. My apology. As I listen to you in your post, I realize that I need to ask questions so that we are on the same page.
I am a real Catholic charismatic in that I am committed to my Catholic Religion and as a sinner practice my faith to the best of my ability.
I agree. However, our meanings of “movement” are slightly different. From my point of view, I look at the Catholic Charismatic Renewal as it is meant to be, knowing that abuses came about in the 70’s or so. Today, as I listen to threads, another kind of abuses are taking place that are now topic one in the media. Thus, the purpose of the Catholic movement is blurred into one grand stew.
I started a reply on another thread about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in relationship with the true Catholic Charismatic Renewal. However, I need to get ready for church.
For now, my questions concern the Catholic Mass you mentioned above. Was that the one which was in the news maybe in November/December last year? It took place in Europe maybe? I think it might have been called a “youth” Mass?
When people talk about a “charismatic” Mass, or when you see one–how is it described? On which day of the week, do these Masses take place? Was the Sacrament of Reconciliation offered before the Mass?
Brief comments regarding the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
In the same way as our Church, Catholic charismatics consider the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as the source and summit of our Faith. The classes offered those in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal include deepening our understanding of The Eucharist because we recognize with every part of our being that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. We are encouraged to receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation, even if there is no mortal sin involved, because we are in a continual process of ”conversion" to God.
Unfortunately, human pride has produced abuses regarding everything religious.
Easter blessings,
granny
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guanophore
Guest
I am pointing out that individuals who dissent from the Church teaching do not define Truth. This is the duty of the Church. Those who dissent from it have departed from the Apostolic faith.
Abuses of all kinds can, and do, occur during authentic Catholic Masses. Most of them do not invalidate the Mass.
Perhaps the Pentecostal movement, having left the authority appointed by Christ, expereinces the worst abuses. They seem like the Church in Corinth, which was grossly outof order.
This difference is that the Church cannot err in faith and morals. When you question or deny the teaching of the Church, you are calling Jesus a liar.
To question abusive practices is, as you say,t he responsibility of all Catholics. To devalue or deny the Teaching of the Church, though, becuase some do not follow it, is inappropriate.
No, that sin was created by the Evil One himself. You are just standing in a long tradition. Remember what the detractors said on Pentecost? “Are they drunk with wine?”
From the very beginning, the Spiritual Gifts were maligned and misused. This not a new invention.
I agree. But it does not make the gifts themselves less authentic.
Again, I don’t believe the Holy Spirit would be having people do what charismatics say/do./quote]
It is your perogative to reject the Teachings of the Church. God has ordained that humans should have free will, and may reject all of His gifts.
wildjmp;5037364:
You have made yourself the Pope! congratulations, your holiness.
Yes, this is correct. When we are baptized, we are sealed with the HS, and any and all gifts that God chooses to manifest are accessible to us. All have the potential of the gift of tongues, due to their baptsim.
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heiscominginthe
Guest
Certainly everyone who is born again, saved should be baptized in water and the Holy Spirit.
Yet, just because one is baptized in the Holy Spirit does not mean they receive the gifts of the spirit. God gives to whom he wills in distributing the gifts. A man may pray to have the gift of healing and never get it. Yet, usually the Holy Spirit moves the believer in what gift to seek. Another reason why some don’t get the gitt they ask for is because they attempt to lead the spirit instead of letting the spirit lead them.
I have done that very thing at times in my spiritual life. When I was saved at the age of fifteen, I felt the unction of the Holy Spirit to leave the church I was attending because I was not being fed spiritually. So I went looking from church to church. Finally at the age of 21, I did what God wanted. I stopped relying on myself and put it in his hands and he led me to where he wanted me to worship.
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heiscominginthe
Guest
Forgive me for not posting my source. I didn’t think it was allowed to post links. I will say it comes from a site called Godsaidmansaid.
Yet, regardless, all truth comes from God and what was posted is truth and cannot be debunked.
From a gospel of Jesus Christ believer, I elect to believer every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.
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grannymh
Guest
Small suggestion:
Right above the list of threads, there is a group of topics that begin with “Sticky” for "sticky notes. One of them will give forum rules and suggestions. Also scroll down the major list of forums and go to “Concierge Desk”. There’s information under that.
One of these sources has information about appropriate links.
Help–Someone who knows how to do the above correctly, please inform us. Thanks.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
You are missing my point, DL. My point is that the NT reflects the experiences of the Early Church. The deposit of faith was complete, alive, and functioning in the Church prior to any word of the NT being written. The REASON we have the NT is because it is the HS that is our guide to the Truth. The HS was given to the Church by Jesus, along with His promise that the Church would be guided into all Truth. This happened 400 years before the Bible was created!
You have your Sources backwards.
Indeed, the Apostle speaks here of the prophetic word that existed int he Church. The only Scripture that was available at this time (aside from what Peter and Paul were writing) was the OT. The Apostles understood the OT in the light of the teaching of Jesus.
The Scripture is not able to be an “authority” in the sense that you are trying to make it here. Authority requires responsibility, and the Scriptures, Holy Writings though they are, cannot exercise abilities that belong to persons.
However, Jesus did give this authority to His Apostles, who made it clear that the gifts of the HS will remain with the Church until she is taken up by Christ.
Indeed, but the Word of God is Jesus Himself. He has manifested Himself in His Church, as well as in the Holy Writing. What you have done here is disregard what He has revealed to His Church.## The opponents of Jesus didn’t find that the Bible supported what He said & did - far from it. The Bible is quite capable of blinding people to God’s action, as it did them. So it is just not possible to give it the primacy some theologies demand - to do so verges on Bibliolatry, the worship of a dead book rather than a Living Christ.
It’s useful, but it cannot be allowed to become an idol, as the brazen serpent did.
Since the Church’s mission is not finished, what basis is there for supposing the gifts the apostles received are done with ?
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
You don’t have to - it’s not a doctrine.
A lot of things God is said to have done are “absurd” - the Incarnation for example. So what we may think, isn’t a perfectly reliable litmus test of whether something is done by God.
But the Church authority does condone it. This has the drawback that it takes away from the sign value of having the whole church as a single People represented at the Prayer of the Church; but having Masses for specific groups is nothing new - Charismatics (not the best word for them, because all Christians are charismatics in some sense) are a recent group for whom Mass is offered.
Then pray in a way you are at ease with, & let others pray as they are moved to do so. (What is “pinking” ?) As for abuses - have there never been abuses in the Church’s life: as in the use of the sacraments ? To define a thing by its abuses is unfair.
Maybe - but why should that be a bad thing ?
Can’t He come upon His own Church when, as, in the measure, & for the reasons He wants ? He does not need our permission - at least, I certainly hope not ! Is the Church not always in need in of the Holy Spirit ? If so, then it needs Him in the 1960s as much as ever it did, or will.
Fair enough - but others do. One assumes that JP2 prayed a few times, & that he prayed occasionally about it.
Catholic Charismatic Renewal - At the Heart of the ChurchIt’s not compulsory - any more than the Rosary is. If it gives you “bad vibes”, don’t bother with it. But others are built up by it - would you take from others what does them good ?
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grannymh
Guest
Gottle of Geer;5039458 said:
It’s not compulsory - any more than the Rosary is. If it gives you “bad vibes”, don’t bother with it. But others are built up by it - would you take from others what does them good ?
Good reply. Is the Catholic Charismatic Renewal - At the Heart of the Church a link? I couldn’t get it to work.
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guanophore
Guest
It didn’t work for me either. Try this one.
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heiscominginthe
Guest
Here are links to a site that describes the baptism of the Holy Spirit in detail.
godsaidmansaid.com/topic3.asp?Cat2=244&ItemID=970 Part 1
godsaidmansaid.com/topic3.asp?Cat2=244&ItemID=971 Part 2
godsaidmansaid.com/topic3.asp?Cat2=244&ItemID=972 Part 3
godsaidmansaid.com/topic3.asp?Cat2=244&ItemID=974 Part 4
godsaidmansaid.com/topic3.asp?Cat2=244&ItemID=975 Part 5
godsaidmansaid.com/topic3.asp?Cat2=244&ItemID=970 Part 1
godsaidmansaid.com/topic3.asp?Cat2=244&ItemID=971 Part 2
godsaidmansaid.com/topic3.asp?Cat2=244&ItemID=972 Part 3
godsaidmansaid.com/topic3.asp?Cat2=244&ItemID=974 Part 4
godsaidmansaid.com/topic3.asp?Cat2=244&ItemID=975 Part 5
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Soutane
Guest
"This is my Body.This is my Blood…"So when are you becoming Catholic?
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