Speaking in Tongues

[guanophore]

I don’t see anything here that talks of water. Yet, I do see that which pertains to salvation.

I believe that you don’t “see” it. It is very difficult to see with one’s anti-catholic blinders on.

The "washing of regeneration’ is a reference to baptism.

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

The Apostles taught that that the washing of regeneration (baptism) sanctifies and justifies us before God. It washes away our sins.

Baptism is accompanied by a profession of faith, in which we “call upon His name”.

Acts 22:15-16
16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

As I stated before, water baptism does not save us, it does not wash away our sins. It is symbolic of the baptism that saves us, the blood of the lamb. When a man repents and asks God to forgive him of his sins, Jesus baptizes the man, washing away the man’s sins with his blood.

Baptism is the manner in which the blood washing is applied to the individual. In baptism, we are joined with Him in His death.

Rom 6:2-4
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Baptism saves because it makes us members of His Body.

1 Cor 12:13
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body - Jews or Greeks, slaves or free - and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

In baptism we “drink of the one Spirit” who cleanses us from sin.

1 Peter 3:20-22
when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

We are “saved through water” because in baptism we appeal to God for a clear conscience. It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses the conscience.

What this verse is saying is we are saved through baptism which is the putting away of the filth of the flesh, yet water, which is the like figure gives us a good conscience towards God.

No, that is not what it is saying. It is saying that we are not getting a water bath to get physically clean. We are bathed in water as an “appeal for a clear conscience”. If you are willing to read the early church fathers, you will be able to confirm that this is what the Apostles understood baptism to be.

Please understand that it is the blood of the lamb that saves is, washing our hearts, circumcising them through Christ. IT is his blood that makes us Holy. Did they use water to sactify the temple of God? NO, they used blood.

I agree with you. Jesus did not want us to use actual blood, though. We use water for the washing. We understand that this is the manner in which the sanctifying blood is applied.

Jesus taught His apostles to baptize with water for the remission of sins. He joined the Holy Spirit to the waters of Baptism when He entered them. From that time,they never separated the Spirit from the water baptism.

This did not occur until the 1930’s, when the American Fundamentalist movement found it necessary to depart from the Apostolic teaching on baptism.

 

[guanophore]

Firstly, Romans 6 and Eph 4:5 pertain to salvation which is the baptism a man must have to be of the family of God. This baptism is through the blood of Christ, not water, baptizing a man into Christ, not in the name of Christ which is water baptism.

This is what you have been taught to believe, but it is not consistent with what the Apostles taught.

As for scripture being catholic, you could not be more wrong. Do not mistake catholic with christian.

It appears that you don’t know much about your own family history, heiscoming. The Catholic Church wrote, preserved, canonized and promulgated the Bible. The believers that were first called Christian in Antioch were all Catholics!

Catholic means universal period.

Indeed, it does. It was the only name for Christians for the first 1000 years.

Christian is the name the early believers called themselves when they were born again, born into Christ through his blood.

Actually, it was a word used by others, but they adopted it for themselves. They were all Catholic Christians. They believed the One, Holy, and Apostolic faith taught by the Apostles, that was throughout the whole world(catholic).

It is his blood that washes our sins, not water. Water is symbolic of the baptism that saves the soul of a man from eternal death.

This is what you have been taught to believe, but it is not consistent with what the Apostles taught. They taught that we are joined to Christ in His death through water baptism. We were buried with Him, and rose with him when coming out ofhte water. It is grace by which we are saved through faith. That professionof faith, made at baptism when we “call upon His name” is the saving faith that is demonstrated through the water of baptism.

 

[heiscominginthe]

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

It is not water that is being discussed in Romans 6. It is salvation through blood into Christ. For it is not water that has the power to destroy sin. Show me one place in Romans 6 that talks of water. You cannot. I have shown you that sin is destroyed, not by water, but by bood.

Revelation 7:14 I told him, “My lord, you know.” He said to me, "These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb’s blood.

Revelation 12:11 They overcame him because of the Lamb’s blood, and because of the word of their testimony. They didn’t love their life, even to death.

Hebrews 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

You talk saying I do not understand the Word of the apostles, but you could not be more wrong. I believe the Word of God. I believe the Word given through the apostles.

I pray you move from the indoctrination of the CC and believe the Word of God.

 

[guanophore]

It is not water that is being discussed in Romans 6. It is salvation through blood into Christ. For it is not water that has the power to destroy sin. Show me one place in Romans 6 that talks of water. You cannot. I have shown you that sin is destroyed, not by water, but by bood.

Indeed, it is water, heiscoming. We are buried with Him in baptism, this is the manner by which the old man is put to death. I agree with you, though, it is not water that has the power to destroy sin. This is why Jesus says that we must be born from above by water and Spirit. It is the Spirit that gives life.

We understand that the sanctifiying blood of Christ is applied to the individual through baptism.

We receive our doctrine from the Apostles. We do not understand baptism only by that which is written in the sixth chapter of Romans. We take all of what was given to us in the Divine Deposit of Faith.

Rom 6:3-4
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Are you claiming that this reference to baptism does not involve water?

You talk saying I do not understand the Word of the apostles, but you could not be more wrong. I believe the Word of God. I believe the Word given through the apostles.

You believe your own interpretation (or that of another man) with regard to the written portion of the Apostolic Teaching, but you have not recieved the Sacred Tradition, therefore, you do not interpret it according to the mind with which it was written. Your interpretation is a departure from the Apostolic Teaching.

I pray you move from the indoctrination of the CC and believe the Word of God.

Been there, done that! What I learned about baptism I learned doing a Master’s thesis at an evangelical seminary. Found my way back!

Just for the record, though, I encourage you to read the forum rules. CAF is not a venue for you to evangelize Catholics, or try to pul us away from our faith. If you want Catholic Answers, you came to the right place. If you came to dish out insults and make converts, you are in the wrong place.

 

[heiscominginthe]

This is why Jesus says that we must be born from above by water and Spirit.

You misinterpret John 3.

In verse 3, Jesus is telling Nicodemus except a man be born again, he
cannot see the kingdom of God…Now as you examine this, look
at the word born again. Does it not make sense that to be born again,
one must first be born. To prove this, examine the next verse.

In verse 4, Nicodemus asks how can a man be born when he is old. Can
he enter a second time into his mothers womb and be born?..
The important word to examine here is second…
Nicodemus thought Jesus was talking about two physical births, but
he was not and the proof lies in the next verse.
In verse 5, Jesus says, except a man be born of water and of spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God…Here our Lord is
telling of two different births, one by water and one by spirit.
When we are born into this world, we are born in a sack of water or
physical birth. Proof that Jesus is talking about physical birth and
spiritual birth can be found in the next verse.
In verse 6, Jesus says that which is born of the flesh is flesh and
that which is born of the spirit is spirit…physical birth,
spiritual birth
So if a man, who is dead in spirit doesn’t become reborn, he will
never see the kingdom of God. So when Jesus says a man must be born
again, he is talking about our dead spirit being born again. The
above scripture talks of three births. One in the flesh and two in
the spirit.

Adam died in the day he ate the forbidden fruit according to scripture.
Yet, he lived in the flesh hundred of years more after his sin.

When he sinned, he died spiritually. He sold his soul unto death. And
all of mankind is held under the yoke of original sin and unless a man
is born again, renewed in his spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom
of God.

 

[heiscominginthe]

I don’t think it is accurate to say that “blood does not”. Water baptism is the manner by which His blood atonement is applied to the individual.

Then a man could say that water saves him. And that would be contrary to the Word of God.

 

[heiscominginthe]

Just for the record, though, I encourage you to read the forum rules. CAF is not a venue for you to evangelize Catholics, or try to pul us away from our faith. If you want Catholic Answers, you came to the right place. If you came to dish out insults and make converts, you are in the wrong place.

I am not trying to pull you or any away from Christ, but to him. If that is viewed as a violation to CAF rules, then something is seriously wrong. For is it not the true desire of all believers is to move toward God, to move toward his truth, not the doctrines of men.

As for catholic christian answers, are they not found in the Word of God?

 

[guanophore]

You misinterpret John 3.

At least I am in good company!

I interpret it according to the mind of the writers, and according to their disciples, who heard from the mouths of the writers what they meant.

I interpret it according to the meaning given by Jesus to the Church, which has remained constant fort 2000 years.

 Do[not make sense that to be born again,

one must first be born. To prove this, examine the next verse.

Indeed, it does! However the Sacred Scriptures are a witness to the Truth that Jesus committed to the Truth. They are not meant to be used as a “proof text”. They reflect what Jesus taught the Apostles, and these things are a matter of faith,not of “proof”.

In verse 4, Nicodemus asks how can a man be born when he is old. Can
he enter a second time into his mothers womb and be born?..
The important word to examine here is second…
Nicodemus thought Jesus was talking about two physical births, but
he was not and the proof lies in the next verse.
In verse 5, Jesus says, except a man be born of water and of spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God…Here our Lord is
telling of two different births, one by water and one by spirit.

No, he is not. Itis true that Jesus wants to make it clear to Nicodemus that there are two births, but the birth He speaks of here is that of baptism. When Jesus entered the waters of baptism, He joined the HS with them. From that time, when we enter those waters, we are born of water and spirit.

When we are born into this world, we are born in a sack of water or physical birth.[/qutoe]

This is true, however, such obstetrical knowledge was not available to the ancients. They understood physical birth this way:

John 1:12-13
12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Physical birth throughout the OT and the NT scriptures is always described as of blood, will of the flesh, or will of man. Blood is the salient feature of human physical birth, not water. This is clear by the fact that there are strict instructions given to the mother it the Levitical law about birth and blood. NEVER is water mentioned. Also, we see that Mary and Joseph offered a sacrifice for purification from BLOOD, not water. The idea that Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about the amniotic fluid is a 19th century invention. It emanates from an anti-Catholic movement whose goal is to devalue the sacrament of baptism.
heiscominginthe;5094801:

proof Jesus is talking about physical birth and

spiritual birth can be found in the next verse.
In verse 6, Jesus says that which is born of the flesh is flesh and
that which is born of the spirit is spirit…physical birth,
spiritual birth

No arguement there. Where you will get an arguement is when you search what the early church believed about baptism.

So if a man, who is dead in spirit doesn't become reborn, he will never see the kingdom of God. So when Jesus says a man must be born

again, he is talking about our dead spirit being born again.

It is very Catholic if you to say this!

The above scripture talks of three births. One in the flesh and two in the spirit. Adam died in the day he ate the forbidden fruit according to scripture.  Yet, he lived in the flesh hundred of years more after his sin.

When he sinned, he died spiritually. He sold his soul unto death. And
all of mankind is held under the yoke of original sin and unless a man
is born again, renewed in his spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom
of God.

The Apostles taught that the manner inwhich we were born again of water and spirit is baptism.
[/quote]

 

[heiscominginthe]

Quote:
Originally Posted by heiscominginthe
Does it not make sense that to be born again,
one must first be born. To prove this, examine the next verse.

Indeed, it does! However the Sacred Scriptures are a witness to the Truth that Jesus committed to the Truth. They are not meant to be used as a “proof text”. They reflect what Jesus taught the Apostles, and these things are a matter of faith,not of “proof”.

It is written that we are to prove and reprove all doctrine to determine if of man or of God.

When we are born into this world, we are born in a sack of water or physical birth.[/qutoe]

This is true, however, such obstetrical knowledge was not available to the ancients. They understood physical birth this way:

 

[guanophore]

I am not trying to pull you or any away from Christ, but to him. If that is viewed as a violation to CAF rules, then something is seriously wrong.

I appreciate you desire to pull others closer to Christ, but this is not a duty given to men. We are given to lead others to Him. Pulling (drawing) is the job of the HS.

CAF is not here to provide you with a venue for evangelization. If this is what you need, then you are right, you are seriously in the wrong place. We are here to provide Catholic Answers to persons who are making sincere inquiries. If you wish to learn about the Faith embraced and taught by the Apostles, this is the right place.

For is it not the true desire of all believers is to move toward God, to move toward his truth, not the doctrines of men.

As for catholic christian answers, are they not found in the Word of God?

You are coming here with a prejudice that the Catholic Church teaches the doctrines of men, not of Christ. This is a very common prejudice. It is one of the reasons we are here!

Yes, Catholic answers can indeed be found in the Word of God. The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. Everything in it is Catholic. What is not Catholic is your understanding of what is written. This is not your fault. You are coming from a tradition that has been separated from the Apostolic Teaching. You do not have access to the framework from which they wrote.

 

[guanophore]

It is written that we are to prove and reprove all doctrine to determine if of man or of God.

Yes, and those same Apostles that commanded that commanded that believers are to be subject to the leaders appointed by God.

Heb 13:17

17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.

During the Reformation, men found it expedient to reject the authority appointed by Christ, and to substitute their own. At that point, the ability to discern the truth of doctrine was severely compromised. Men decided to abandon the Sacred Tradition that produced the New Testament, and try to find meaning in it apart from the Revelation given by God to the Church.

It is Jesus who said a man must be born of water and of spirit. He wanted Nicodemus to see that there is more to life that that of the flesh.

Nicodemus already knew there was more to life than flesh. That is why he was there!

He wanted Nicodemus to understand that a man had to have a living spirit to enter the knigdom of God. The sad part is that Israel at one time know and understood things of the spirit, but because their hearts had become hardened, they lost their ability to know God. Proof of that is not being able to recognize the time of visitation by their messiah.

Can’t argue with that!

Jesus said a man must be born again. He was not talking about two physical births, he was talking about two spiritual births. When a man is born into this world, his spirit is alive, but when he reaches the age of accountability he is slain and his spirit dies.

Such a statement is not consistent with the Apostolic Teaching. Are you SDA? I just learned the other day that SDA don’t believe in original sin.

And if not born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God. If this were not so,how could a child enter the kingdom of God. Children are innocent in the eyes of God. They are alive in their spirits until sin slays them at the age of accountabiblity.

This constitutes a “different gospel” than what was taught by Jesus and the Apostles. However, it is off topic in this thread. You might wish to join the baptism thread,w hich is covering this topic right now. If there is no original sin, there is really no reason for the Apostles to baptize infants.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

as far as speaking in tongues goes, and I know that this conversation has been focused on baptism to a degree, I think that tongues is a gift that is inherent in all of our baptisms. In fact, when we received the holy Spirit at baptism I believe that we received the entire holy Spirit. If that is true, then I assume that we have access to all that is possible to a human when the Holy spirit dwells within them. Jesus also received the Holy Spirit and was also an actual man. So in a very large degree, we should be open to what the charismatic renewal is proclaiming in that tongues and all of the spiritual gifts that the apostles and Jesus himself had, are also ours if we are open to the grace of the holy Spirit in us.

The renewal asks and prays to become open to the grace within us.

God grant you pardon and peace!

 

[heiscominginthe]

Quote:
Originally Posted by heiscominginthe
You talk saying I do not understand the Word of the apostles, but you could not be more wrong. I believe the Word of God. I believe the Word given through the apostles.

You believe your own interpretation (or that of another man) with regard to the written portion of the Apostolic Teaching, but you have not recieved the Sacred Tradition, therefore, you do not interpret it according to the mind with which it was written. Your interpretation is a departure from the Apostolic Teaching.

You claim it is my own interpretation, but yet all that you attempt to argue is easily debunked. For instance, it talks of in Romans 6 of the body of sin being destroyed. It is not water that does this, but blood. It says nothing in Romans 6 about water, but much about blood. So when you change water into blood, you are changing the Word of God to your or the CC interpretation, ignoring what the Word of God says. This is known as adding to the Word of God.

Jesus changed water into to wine and the CC changes the blood of the lamb into water. It is no wonder why the Holy Spirit does not move in this church.

 

[guanophore]

You claim it is my own interpretation, but yet all that you attempt to argue is easily debunked

You are right, it is most likely not yours. You have received erroneous teaching from sources that are separated from the Apostolic succession. It did not origniate with you, it originated in the Reformation. You are also correct that you can “easily debunk” the Apostolic Teaching by interpreting the scriptures in the light of various heretical ideas. Even the writers of the Scriptures were clear that they could be twisted to support all sorts of wrong ideas.

For instance, it talks of in Romans 6 of the body of sin being destroyed. It is not water that does this, but blood. It says nothing in Romans 6 about water, but much about blood. So when you change water into blood, you are changing the Word of God to your or the CC interpretation, ignoring what the Word of God says. This is known as adding to the Word of God.

No, heis, it is not. The Apostles taught that the blood of Christ is what overcomes sin. We are joined with his bloody sacrifice in baptism, when we are buried under the water. In this way, we are spiritually joined to Him in death.

Christians do not espouse the ancient Pagan practice of Mithraism, where actual blood is sprinkled.

Jesus changed water into to wine and the CC changes the blood of the lamb into water. It is no wonder why the Holy Spirit does not move in this church.

heiscoming, no one can “change the blood of the lamb”. It is Jesus who has commanded water baptism, and it was He who instructed His Apostles that by it, we are joined to His death and resurrection.

It is judgemental and insulting for you to make a statement that God does not move in the CC. I recommend that, if you wish to continue posting here, you observe the forum rules. CAF is not a venue provided for you to insult our faith. We are here to answer questions about the Catholic faith. If you don’t like the answers, that is your perogative, but you are required to exercise courtesy about our faith if you wish to post here.

Just for the record, though, I am curious to know how you would be able to tell if the Holy Spirit was moving in “this church”.

 

[heiscominginthe]

It is judgemental and insulting for you to make a statement that God does not move in the CC. I recommend that, if you wish to continue posting here, you observe the forum rules. CAF is not a venue provided for you to insult our faith. We are here to answer questions about the Catholic faith. If you don’t like the answers, that is your perogative, but you are required to exercise courtesy about our faith if you wish to post here.

Just for the record, though, I am curious to know how you would be able to tell if the Holy Spirit was moving in “this church”.

I do not mean to offend you, but does it not say in the Word of God that the Word will offend?

You ask how I would know if the Holy Spirit was moving in the CC and the answer is found in the Word of God in 2Thess. 2.

Now, I believe there are genuine believers who seek God, not the doctrines of men that are catholic. Unfortunately, I believe the amount is low in those who are completely submissive to the will of God, but yet that is not in the CC alone. For all who have doctrines that conflict with the Word of God that glorify the flesh and not God which result in moving men away from God instead of toward him do so because their teachings of the flesh and not of the spirit. Even though some have mixture of spiritual and physical resultiing in a form of godliness but denying the power of the Holy Spirit, it is written that a man cannot sup at the table of the Lord and the table of his enemy. For a man will hate one and love the other.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

Hmm, I just read 2 thes 2 and did not find any mention of what would be a description of a church where the Spirit is moving. I thought that you would mention Gal 5:22 or maybe 1 Cor 13 or even 1 Cor 12. I think that to say that the holy Spirit is moving ina church would imply that the fruits and gifts of the Holy Spirit would have to be present. I think that in the Catholic Church, those fruits and gifts are given in adundance. Especially if you consider the fruits and gifts within the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

How exactly do you go about knowing if the Holy Spirit is present heis?

 

[guanophore]

I do not mean to offend you, but does it not say in the Word of God that the Word will offend?

Yes, of course the Word of God may offend. However, your statement “no wonder the HS does not move in the Catholic Church” is your personal opinion, not “The Word of God”. It also happens to be an erroneous statement.

CAF is not a venue for you to pander your anti-Catholic bigotry. If you wish to post things of this nature, it would be more appropriate for you to open your own blog. It personally think it is a very bad idea to tear at the Bride of Christ, but suit yourself. Just dont’ do it here.

You ask how I would know if the Holy Spirit was moving in the CC and the answer is found in the Word of God in 2Thess. 2.

Now, I believe there are genuine believers who seek God, not the doctrines of men that are catholic.

It it seems it is your personal opinion that Catholic doctrine is “of men” and not from God. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, even if it is in error.

Unfortunately, I believe the amount is low in those who are completely submissive to the will of God, but yet that is not in the CC alone. For all who have doctrines that conflict with the Word of God that glorify the flesh and not God which result in moving men away from God instead of toward him do so because their teachings of the flesh and not of the spirit. Even though some have mixture of spiritual and physical resultiing in a form of godliness but denying the power of the Holy Spirit, it is written that a man cannot sup at the table of the Lord and the table of his enemy. For a man will hate one and love the other.

Yes. You are very misinformed about the Catholic faith. However, I fear that your stay here will be short, since you seem to find it necessary to insult our faith. We are here to answer sincere questions about the faith, not serve as an opportunity to be insulted and slandered by the ignorant.

If, however, you are able and willing to learn about the history of your faith, I think this is the right place to do so. It would require setting aside some of your pre-conceived notions, and approaching with an open mind.

 

[Reuben_J]

My question to you is, why do we need to speak in tongues today since we have the Bible?
2 Peter 1:16-21

Funny that you ask. The question can also be asked, why can’t we?

If the end result is to edify, why should we turn down the gift of the Holy Spirit? Beside, this is not forced on anybody; anyone can freely either to choose to exercise it or don’t; and it does not have any bearing on his/her fidelity and holiness. I was thinking more in the line of - why bother about those who find such gift useful in his/her Christian life?

Remember, if we don’t want it we will not have it. How can we have a gift if we don’t want it? The Holy Spirit is a gentle Spirit, notwithstanding.

 

[Reuben_J]

My mistake. I was inadvertently replying to an early post. Kindly disregard it.

 

[sympathy07]

I m trying sometimes to speak but i can’t do it. But i can speak in other tongue.