Speaking in Tongues

[guanophore]

JL: In Ezekiel we have an Old Testament prophecy, according to the foreknowledge of God, of something better than circumcision to come.

Ez 36:24 FOR I WILL TAKE YOU FROM AMONG THE HEATHEN, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 THEN WILL I SPRINKLE CLEAN WATER UPON YOU, and YE SHALL BE CLEAN: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, I WILL CLEANSE YOU. 26 A NEW HEART also WILL I GIVE YOU, and A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU: and I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART out of your flesh, and I WILL GIVE YOU AN HEART OF FLESH. 27 And I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and YE SHALL KEEP MY JUDGMENTS, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and YE SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, and I WILL BE YOUR GOD.

1Pt 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

ACTS 19:1 And it came to pass that, while Apollos was at Corinth Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus and FINDING certain DISCIPLES 2 HE SAID unto them HAVE YOU RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him WE HAVE NOT SO MUCH AS HEARD whether THERE BE ANY HOLY GHOST 3 And HE SAID unto them UNTO WHAT then WERE YE BAPTIZED? And THEY SAID UNTO JOHN’S BAPTISM 4 Then said Paul, JOHN verily BAPTIZED WITH the BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE SAYING unto the people that they should BELIEVE ON HIM WHICH should COME AFTER HIM that is ON CHRIST JESUS 5 When they heard this THEY WERE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS 6 And when PAUL had LAID his HANDS UPON THEM THE HOLY GHOST CAME ON THEM and they spake with tongues and prophesied [More is needed than belief and faith to be born again, because John’s baptism was of repentance and believing or having faith in the one to come, Christ. They needed the sacrament of Christian water baptism because the Holy Spirit and baptism go hand and hand else why would Paul ask about baptism when he found they had not heard of the Holy Spirit? We receive the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Christ’s baptism and a strengthening in the sacrament of confirmation, by laying on of hands, confirmation is Pentecost for the baptized.

How are we joined to the one body of Christ and drink of one Spirit? [1Cor 12:13 BY ONE SPIRIT we were ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY Jews or Greeks slaves or free all were MADE TO DRINK OF ONE SPIRIT]

How do we die with Christ? [Rms 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH?] How are we buried with Christ? How are we raised from the dead to new life with Christ? [Rms6:4 We were therefore BURIED WITH HIM THROUGH BAPTISM INTO DEATH in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, WE too may LIVE A NEW LIFE.] How are we united to Christ? [Rms6:5 If we have been UNITED WITH HIM like this in his death, we will certainly also be UNITED WITH HIM in his resurrection.] How is our old sinful self crucified with Christ, that we no longer be slaves to sin? [Rms6:6 For we know that OUR OLD SELF WAS CRUCIFIED with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should NO LONGER be SLAVES TO SIN.]

How are we complete in Christ? How are we circumcised without hands putting off the body of the sins of the flesh? [Col2:10 And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 IN WHOM also YE ARE CIRCUMCISED with the CIRCUMCISION MADE WITHOUT HANDS, in PUTTING OFF THE BODY OF THE SINS OF THE FLESH by the CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST] What is the circumcision of Christ? [Col2:12 BURIED WITH HIM IN BAPTISM, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.]

How are we saved by Christ’s mercy? How are we washed by Christ? How are we regenerated by Christ? How are we renewed of the Holy Ghost by Christ? [Titus 3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness…we have done BUT BY HIS MERCY he saved us BY the WASHING of REGENERATION and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST]

What must we do to be saved by Christ? How do we receive remission of sins by Christ? How do we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost? [Acts 2:38 …Peter said …REPENT and BE BAPTIZED…in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION OF SINS and…RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST.]

What must we do to be saved if we believe? [MK16:16 He that BELIEVETH and is BAPTIZED shall be SAVED but he that believeth not shall be damned.]

Does baptism save? 1Pt3:20 … eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto BAPTISM NOW SAVES US.

How do we enter the kingdom of God? [Jn3:5 Jesus answered…UNLESS one is BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT he CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM of God.]

How do we put on Christ? [Gal 3::27… as many of you as have been BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.]

How does Christ wash us, from our sins, in his blood? [Rv 1:5 …Jesus Christ…the faithful witness…first begotten of the dead…prince of kings…him that loved us and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS own BLOOD] How does Christ make us kings and priests unto God? [Rv1:6 …made us kings and priests unto God…]

The answer to all the above is BAPTISM.

Excellent post jl!

Please continue over on the baptism thread.

 

[jlhargus]

Jesus said a man must be born again. He was not talking about two physical births, he was talking about two spiritual births. When a man is born into this world, his spirit is alive, but when he reaches the age of accountability he is slain and his spirit dies. And if not born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God. If this were not so,how could a child enter the kingdom of God. Children are innocent in the eyes of God. They are alive in their spirits until sin slays them at the age of accountabiblity.

[Jn3:3 JESUS ANSWERED and said unto him Verily verily I say unto thee EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN AGAIN HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD 4 NICODEMUS SAITH unto him HOW can a man be born when he is old can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb and be born 5 JESUS ANSWERED Verily verily I say unto thee Except a man be born OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT he CANNOT enter into the kingdom of God 6 THAT which is BORN OF THE FLESH IS FLESH and THAT which is BORN OF THE SPIRIT IS SPIRIT. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee Ye must be born again.] All human beings are BORN OF FLESH ONLY, due to original sin. Adam lost the indwelling ot the Holy Spirit when he sinned and he died spiriturally that day. We only receive that indwelling of the Holy Spirit when we are born again, by water and the Spirit in baptism. That is why we baptize children.

Children are born innocent, therefore will not go to hell, but children are not born with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Especially an infant born to unbelievers, Paul tells us they are unclean, [1Cor 7:14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.] were does that leave children who are not born again as Christ tells us, you must be born again and he tells us how, of water and Spirit=baptism. That born of flesh is flesh=carnal, is still “in Adam”. Infants are only born of flesh and must be born again of water and Spirit, to be “in Christ”, baptism takes one out of Adam=flesh into Christ=Spirit. No one is born with the right to heaven, it is the free gift and mercy of God. If you want to debate on this subject or any other please start another line and I will be glad to debate with you. Call it QUESTIONS FOR CATHOLICS, that way we can discuss any topic. I do not want to derail this topic.

 

[jlhargus]

Excellent post jl!

Please continue over on the baptism thread.

JL: Thanks, sorry for the interruption.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

lol, great posts so far…wow

so how bout we talk about being baptized in the Holy Spirit and then let’s speak in tongues over here!

I think God had a plan by turning this into a baptism thread for a time!

 

[heiscominginthe]

It is VERY CATHOLIC of you to say this!

Does the water “save” in baptism? No, the only way that man can appeal to God for a clear conscience is through the blood of Christ. Baptism is the manner in which the blood of Christ is applied to the individual.

There is only one baptism that saves a man and it is the baptism of blood. The scripture below explains that the water baptism is the figure or symbolism of the baptism that saves us. When we get baptized in water, we do nothing that pertains to the putting away of the flesh for we are saved by faith, but it gives us a good conscience towards God.

 

[heiscominginthe]

Children are born innocent, therefore will not go to hell, but children are not born with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Especially an infant born to unbelievers,

Does not God instill the breathe of life into a new born child? Is not the spirit of the child alive, but dies when he understands the laws and realizes he or she cannot live sinless under the law?

Adam was born a living soul. He sinned and died, bringing all of mankind under the yoke of death. So Adam went from being a living soul to a dead soul, thus changing his first estate bringing about a man who became a flesh that would perish.

So the question is, does God breathe the breath of life into a newborn child? Is not a child a living soul held under the yoke of original sin?

 

[guanophore]

I believe the man is saved by grace, then when he takes the water baptism, he is acknowledging that he is a new creature in Christ, telling the world that he died to his sinful nature by entering the water that is symbolic of the grave and then rising from the water being symbolic of the resurrection.

Actually, one does not “take” baptism, but receives it. It is offered by God, and only can be received by those who are properly disposed. The grace that saves is the grace that is active in baptism. The Apostles never separated them.

For only God and the man knows what has happened in the heart of the man at the moment of his rebirth and when he receives water baptism he is making a public confession to the world that he has been saved by the grace of God, thus giving God all the preemminence and the glory he so rightfully deserves.

This is what anti-Catholics have taught, so that the Apostolic understanding of baptism could be rejected. Just a bit of study of Church history will make it clear that the purpose of baptism had nothing to do with the “public”. On the contrary, most of the baptisms recorded in the NT were either private, or limited to households where everyone knew one another. Even more impactful is the fact that Christianity was illegal for 300 years. Anyone who wanted to make a “public confession” was offering himself for martyrdom. That is why baptism, along with other sacraments, were conducted in private, often in places the Pagans would not go, such as the tombs.

I agree with the exception of how the baptisms are to be administered.

Jesus gave the Church legislative authority. This means that the Church has His permission to adapt as needed. I recommend the Didache as the earliest source on this.

If what I am saying is incorrect, then where are all the gifts of the spirit in the CC?

Sadly, catechesis in the use of the Charismatic gifts in the Catholic Church has been rather scant. As a result, most Catholics have the gifts of the Spirit yet within them, like gifts that have never been unwrapped.

I believe by not doing the baptisms in the manner given by the apostles has seriously hampered the movement of the HS in the CC.

God made you in His likeness and image. This means that He has given you the freedom to have your own opinion. Adam and Eve also did not agree with God’s opinion of right and wrong, and did what ever seemed right to them. You are rejecting the Teaching of God, and that is your perogative. The Catholic Church affirms your ability and privilege to do so.

For instance, let us look at the baptism of the HS. It occured in different ways. One was by the laying on of hands. The other as the HS willed as when Paul was amazed that the gospel was given to the gentiles, knowing they had been saved and baptized in the HS since he heard them speak in tongues.

I am pretty fairly certain you are talking about Peter here. God arranged this special demonstration to convince Peter that the HS was to be given to the Gentiles. You notice his response? He ORDERED that they be baptized in water. That is because he understood that water baptism is not to be separated from the HS.

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say here. I agree that our robes are made white by the blood of the lamb, not water.

Water baptism is the manner in which the blood of Christ is applied to the individual.

 

[guanophore]

Does not God instill the breathe of life into a new born child? Is not the spirit of the child alive, but dies when he understands the laws and realizes he or she cannot live sinless under the law?

You are confusing original sin with personal sin. But yes, when we understand what God commands, our liability for doing wrong changes.

Adam was born a living soul. He sinned and died, bringing all of mankind under the yoke of death. So Adam went from being a living soul to a dead soul, thus changing his first estate bringing about a man who became a flesh that would perish.

No, man was flesh from the beginning. The consequence of original sin is that we are all born wounded by it. We are separated from God, because we are conceived in sin.

So the question is, does God breathe the breath of life into a newborn child? Is not a child a living soul held under the yoke of original sin?

Yes, the child is a living soul. The life that is in the child is, indeed, under the yoke of original sin. As Jesus said, the one who does not beleive is dead already. This is because we are born into the world under the sentence of death. Only His blood can redeem us.

This whole area of original sin is off topic in this thread.

 

[Reuben_J]

Praying in tongues is a small part of the Holy Spirit.

In-filling with the Holy Spirit must refer to the first Pentecost – the disciples were ‘clothed with power from on high’. Acts1:8. Characteristic therefore should have what it entails though the degree may differ.

In 1959 Pope John XXIII prayed for a second Pentecost and out of it came the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, though it started from a very humble beginning.

You’re right insomuch that praying in tongue is a small part of it. In fact it may not happen at all to some. I do not agree if you put it as an indicator of being ‘filled’ with the Holy Spirit though many do have it, much to their awe.

Yet, before a man can have the Holy Spirit of God in him, he must first be made clean, holy through salvation. For the Holy Spirit of God can not enter the man until he is first made holy by the blood of the lamb.

So salvation is the important part of having the HG in a man. Then comes the baptism of the HG when a man is filled, over filled with the HG. Just as the man entered into salvation by way of faith, he receives the baptism of the HG by faith.

And the fruits of the spirit are listed in scripture.

This understanding is quite in congruent with the baptism of the Holy Spirit and even in the Sacrament of Baptism itself (note the big cap). Thanks for that.

I do think however, that you are narrowing the scope for/of salvation though.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

I think it is beautiful that the Lord Jesus fills us with the Spirit as we allow Him to cleanse us of our sins.

As a good way to go about seeking The gift of the Holy Spirit living within you, and also speaking in tongues, I would recommend first, as our brother here has suggested, to seek the Lord Jesus, who loves you and wants to wash away all of your sins! Make a deep confession, forgive all those who have sinned against you (if you forgive others, your heavenly Father will forgive you also) and trust that Jesus is the only one who can save you! Call upon Him who has the power to save you even now. He desires to fill you with His very self. Trust Him for your salvation, believe that He will do it if you turn fully to Him!

You shall be filled with grace, even as those who have the the more forgiven them, love more.

Praise Jesus in tongues by the power of HIM!

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

you can try this as well, renew your baptism. It is all there.

try this link for more info on how to renew and accept more fully your baptism.

presentationministries.com/brochures/MoreLife.asp

 

[Reuben_J]

In 1959 Pope John XXIII prayed for a **second Pentecost **…

Correction: → new Pentecost.

 

[jlhargus]

For instance, let us look at the baptism of the HS. It occured in different ways. One was by the laying on of hands. The other as the HS willed as when Paul was amazed that the gospel was given to the gentiles, knowing they had been saved and baptized in the HS since he heard them speak in tongues.

JL: What you call the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what Catholics call the sacrament of confirmation. We receive the HS in water baptism when our sins are washed away. We receive the HS after water baptism by laying on of hands of the bishop, who suceed the apostles, to strengthen us to carry our cross daily and withness for Christ. Water baptism is being born into spiritual life and confirmation would be sort of becoming and adult in spiritual life. We receive the 7 gifts of the HS with water baptism at confirmation just as at Pentecost we receive power to witness for the faith.

Does not God instill the breathe of life into a new born child? Is not the spirit of the child alive, but dies when he understands the laws and realizes he or she cannot live sinless under the law?

Adam was born a living soul. He sinned and died, bringing all of mankind under the yoke of death. So Adam went from being a living soul to a dead soul, thus changing his first estate bringing about a man who became a flesh that would perish.

So the question is, does God breathe the breath of life into a newborn child? Is not a child a living soul held under the yoke of original sin?

JL: The soul is created directly by God at conception, thereby forming a living NATURAL HUMAN BEING, we do not naturally have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that born of flesh is flesh=carnal. Adam was created a preternatural human being with the supernatural GIFTS of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit etc… Adam was not subject to concupiscence. Adam knew no suffering, sickness, pain or sin or physical death. Adam was not created to grow old and die. If Adam had not sinned and lost those GIFTS or if Adam alone lost those GIFTS. And not for all his descendants, infants would not get sick or die until they can reason, know right from wrong, and then knowingly commit a serious sin, we see that is not the case. Adam lost those supernatural GIFTS, with which he was originally created, for himself and his descendant. I don’t have time to look it up and read the CCC 399-421, I understand it is more involved, I’m just trying to give a simple bare basic answer.

 

[heiscominginthe]

JL: In Ezekiel we have an Old Testament prophecy, according to the foreknowledge of God, of something better than circumcision to come.

Ez 36:24 FOR I WILL TAKE YOU FROM AMONG THE HEATHEN, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 THEN WILL I SPRINKLE CLEAN WATER UPON YOU, and YE SHALL BE CLEAN: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, I WILL CLEANSE YOU. 26 A NEW HEART also WILL I GIVE YOU, and A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU: and I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART out of your flesh, and I WILL GIVE YOU AN HEART OF FLESH. 27 And I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and YE SHALL KEEP MY JUDGMENTS, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and YE SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, and I WILL BE YOUR GOD.

1Pt 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

ACTS 19:1 And it came to pass that, while Apollos was at Corinth Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus and FINDING certain DISCIPLES 2 HE SAID unto them HAVE YOU RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him WE HAVE NOT SO MUCH AS HEARD whether THERE BE ANY HOLY GHOST 3 And HE SAID unto them UNTO WHAT then WERE YE BAPTIZED? And THEY SAID UNTO JOHN’S BAPTISM 4 Then said Paul, JOHN verily BAPTIZED WITH the BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE SAYING unto the people that they should BELIEVE ON HIM WHICH should COME AFTER HIM that is ON CHRIST JESUS 5 When they heard this THEY WERE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS 6 And when PAUL had LAID his HANDS UPON THEM THE HOLY GHOST CAME ON THEM and they spake with tongues and prophesied [More is needed than belief and faith to be born again, because John’s baptism was of repentance and believing or having faith in the one to come, Christ. They needed the sacrament of Christian water baptism because the Holy Spirit and baptism go hand and hand else why would Paul ask about baptism when he found they had not heard of the Holy Spirit? We receive the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Christ’s baptism and a strengthening in the sacrament of confirmation, by laying on of hands, confirmation is Pentecost for the baptized.

How are we joined to the one body of Christ and drink of one Spirit? [1Cor 12:13 BY ONE SPIRIT we were ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY Jews or Greeks slaves or free all were MADE TO DRINK OF ONE SPIRIT]

How do we die with Christ? [Rms 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH?] How are we buried with Christ? How are we raised from the dead to new life with Christ? [Rms6:4 We were therefore BURIED WITH HIM THROUGH BAPTISM INTO DEATH in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, WE too may LIVE A NEW LIFE.] How are we united to Christ? [Rms6:5 If we have been UNITED WITH HIM like this in his death, we will certainly also be UNITED WITH HIM in his resurrection.] How is our old sinful self crucified with Christ, that we no longer be slaves to sin? [Rms6:6 For we know that OUR OLD SELF WAS CRUCIFIED with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should NO LONGER be SLAVES TO SIN.]

How are we complete in Christ? How are we circumcised without hands putting off the body of the sins of the flesh? [Col2:10 And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 IN WHOM also YE ARE CIRCUMCISED with the CIRCUMCISION MADE WITHOUT HANDS, in PUTTING OFF THE BODY OF THE SINS OF THE FLESH by the CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST] What is the circumcision of Christ? [Col2:12 BURIED WITH HIM IN BAPTISM, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.]

How are we saved by Christ’s mercy? How are we washed by Christ? How are we regenerated by Christ? How are we renewed of the Holy Ghost by Christ? [Titus 3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness…we have done BUT BY HIS MERCY he saved us BY the WASHING of REGENERATION and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST]

What must we do to be saved by Christ? How do we receive remission of sins by Christ? How do we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost? [Acts 2:38 …Peter said …REPENT and BE BAPTIZED…in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION OF SINS and…RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST.]

What must we do to be saved if we believe? [MK16:16 He that BELIEVETH and is BAPTIZED shall be SAVED but he that believeth not shall be damned.]

Does baptism save? 1Pt3:20 … eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto BAPTISM NOW SAVES US.

How do we enter the kingdom of God? [Jn3:5 Jesus answered…UNLESS one is BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT he CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM of God.]

How do we put on Christ? [Gal 3::27… as many of you as have been BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.]

How does Christ wash us, from our sins, in his blood? [Rv 1:5 …Jesus Christ…the faithful witness…first begotten of the dead…prince of kings…him that loved us and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS own BLOOD] How does Christ make us kings and priests unto God? [Rv1:6 …made us kings and priests unto God…]

The answer to all the above is BAPTISM.

To receive water baptism is work and not grace. The man goes and enters the water and is baptized.

Yet, when a man is saved, he is saved by grace. The man believes and his heart is circumcised, being baptized into Christ through his blood. Christ does the baptizing.

 

[heiscominginthe]

JL: What you call the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what Catholics call the sacrament of confirmation. We receive the HS in water baptism when our sins are washed away. We receive the HS after water baptism by laying on of hands of the bishop, who suceed the apostles, to strengthen us to carry our cross daily and withness for Christ. Water baptism is being born into spiritual life and confirmation would be sort of becoming and adult in spiritual life. We receive the 7 gifts of the HS with water baptism at confirmation just as at Pentecost we receive power to witness for the faith.

unscriptural. The man is saved by grace. He then takes the baptism of water in the name of Jesus and then the baptism of the Holy Spirit given him by the laying on of hands in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is exactlly how it is given in scripture and to say differently is to go against the Word of God.

It is written that a man must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. For a man to need a second birth, he would of had to have a previous birth that died. In a man this dead comes by way of disobedience to the laws of God.

 

[Hisalone]

JL: What you call the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what Catholics call the sacrament of confirmation. We receive the HS in water baptism when our sins are washed away. We receive the HS after water baptism by laying on of hands of the bishop, who suceed the apostles, to strengthen us to carry our cross daily and withness for Christ. Water baptism is being born into spiritual life and confirmation would be sort of becoming and adult in spiritual life. We receive the 7 gifts of the HS with water baptism at confirmation just as at Pentecost we receive power to witness for the faith.

.

No it is not.
Ask a Catholic Charismatic to explain it to you.

 

[heiscominginthe]

In-filling with the Holy Spirit must refer to the first Pentecost – the disciples were ‘clothed with power from on high’. Acts1:8. Characteristic therefore should have what it entails though the degree may differ.

In 1959 Pope John XXIII prayed for a second Pentecost and out of it came the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, though it started from a very humble beginning.

You’re right insomuch that praying in tongue is a small part of it. In fact it may not happen at all to some. I do not agree if you put it as an indicator of being ‘filled’ with the Holy Spirit though many do have it, much to their awe.

There are those who believe that if a person does not pray in tongues he has never received the baptism of the HS. Then there are those who believe that if you don’t speak in tongues a person has not received the baptism of the HS and is not saved. Neither one can be proven scripturally.

I do not understand what you mean by narrowing the scope of salvation. I know what salvation is. My conversion was earth shattering. I heard preaching, became convicted in my heart, became completely submissive to the will of God, repented and became born anew. It was just as it says in scripture. All things becames like new to me. I was a new creature in Christ. I did not receive water baptism and the baptism of the HS till six years later.

It was the most powerful experience of my life and it all took place in my heart. Thank you Lord Jesus.

 

[Reuben_J]

I do not understand what you mean by narrowing the scope of salvation. I know what salvation is. My conversion was earth shattering. I heard preaching, became convicted in my heart, became completely submissive to the will of God, repented and became born anew. It was just as it says in scripture. All things becames like new to me. I was a new creature in Christ. I did not receive water baptism and the baptism of the HS till six years later.

It was the most powerful experience of my life and it all took place in my heart. Thank you Lord Jesus.

Yet, before a man can have the Holy Spirit of God in him, he must first be made clean, holy through salvation. For the Holy Spirit of God can not enter the man until he is first made holy by the blood of the lamb.

**So salvation is the important part of having the HG in a man. Then comes the baptism of the HG when a man is filled, over filled with the HG. Just as the man entered into salvation by way of faith, he receives the baptism of the HG by faith. **

And the fruits of the spirit are listed in scripture.

Maybe I don’t understand the highlighted part or maybe I am just being too simplistic. Remember I am a Catholic so there might be certain definition of the words you used that I may understand differently.

While I agree with the salvation as you put it per se, that it is as long as the HG is in you. I don’t want to enter into a debate on this if you are OSAS Christian. If you are, then suffice to say this is always our difference.

God bless.

 

[jlhargus]

Originally Posted by jlhargus
JL: What you call the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what Catholics call the sacrament of confirmation. We receive the HS in water baptism when our sins are washed away. We receive the HS after water baptism by laying on of hands of the bishop, who succeed the apostles, to strengthen us to carry our cross daily and witness for Christ. Water baptism is being born into spiritual life and confirmation would be sort of becoming and adult in spiritual life. We receive the 7 gifts of the HS with water baptism at confirmation just as at Pentecost we receive power to witness for the faith.

No it is not.
Ask a Catholic Charismatic to explain it to you.

JL: The sacrament of Confirmation can be properly called baptism of the Holy Spirit. John the Batpist said Christ would baptize with the HS and fire. When we are born of water and Spirit in water baptism, we are immersed into the HS, born children of God because we receive the very life of God, the indwelling of the HS. The baptism of fire is the Sacrament of Confirmation or baptism of the HS, which corresponds to Pentecoast. CCC 1302, It is evident from its celebration that the effect of the sacrament of Confirmation is the full outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the apostles on the day of Pentecost.

[Acts 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: Do not leave Jerusalem, but WAIT FOR THE GIFT MY FATHER PROMISED, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. 6…7… 8 But YOU WILL RECEIVE POWER WHEN THE HOLY SPIRIT COMES ON YOU; and YOU WILL BE MY WITNESSES in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth] The power and gift was the Holy Spirit, who distributes charims as he determines. [1Cor 12:31 But COVET earnestly THE BEST GIFTS: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.] [1Cor 14:1 FOLLOW THE WAY OF LOVE and EAGERLY DESIRE SPIRITUAL GIFTS, ESPECIALLY the gift of PROPHECY.] [1Cor 12:11 ALL these ARE the WORK OF one and THE SAME SPIRIT, and HE GIVES THEM to each one, JUST AS HE DETERMINES ] [1Cor 7:7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But EVERY MAN HATH HIS PROPER GIFT OF GOD ONE AFTER THIS manner and ANOTHER AFTER THAT, 1Cor 12:7 Now TO EACH ONE the manifestation of THE SPIRIT IS GIVEN FOR THE COMMON GOOD.]

 

[jlhargus]

To receive water baptism is work and not grace. The man goes and enters the water and is baptized.

Yet, when a man is saved, he is saved by grace. The man believes and his heart is circumcised, being baptized into Christ through his blood. Christ does the baptizing.

JL: Is that the best you can do. I will not post about baptism on this line. I will try to get to your posts and post on the 3 baptism line when I get the change. I could be next week